Where is the hard working American?

By johnnyh (***)

Date 10-16-2008 13:43

No, that's just in Philly. :)

By shorthood2006 (****)

Date 10-16-2008 14:04

i watched a show about the parking authority in Phili last night on discovery. It seems that everyone appears to have the same mindset in that city. Pretty sad!

By raftergwelding (*****)

Date 10-16-2008 22:37

i watched that same show what a bunch of a$$holes they will right you a ticket for anythng up there

By OBEWAN

Date 10-16-2008 14:04

Maybe you should look to the oil patch. I am sure there are plenty of hard working self employed rig welders.

Big business and fixed location shops sometimes do allow some people to become lazy.

When I worked automotive, robotics had a lot to do with it. I have seen huge shops with hundreds of robots working. The lights were even turned off and there were no people except for a few maintenance men wandering around. If nothing broke down, most of the time they had nothing to do. They sat in their crib reading magazines or playing cards most of the time. There were a few motivated ones though. I know because I worked for the robotics company that built the plant, and they would ask me for PLC schematics to study during their down time. That way they could work faster when something broke down.

My job is sometimes pretty slack. If we don't have any new hires to certify, or and new procedures to qualify, there are days with nothing to do. I am then like a fireman waiting in the firehouse for a fire to put out. If a problem occurs, I have work to do. If not, I wait for bad welds to happen. My employer would rather have me not buisy than working on broken product. So, I spend my "downtime" on the Internet at sites like this one. LOL. Since I do the work of an engineering consultant, my employer still makes out. I mean they pay me a fraction of the rate of a test lab, so If I am buisy 30% of the time, they still at least break even.

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 10-16-2008 14:05

I too have noticed this problem. I have worked at many different shops over the course of my career. One shop had this type of problem they fixed it by hiring Laotians. Another had this problem and hired hispanics. I had many friends at each shop, because all I saw were PEOPLE willing to bust there arses daily to get by.

The last place I worked and had this problem and they just laid ME off. I had been there for 3 years compared to others of 7 or 8 plus years. My immediate supervisor knew the work ethic, or lack thereof, of many of her people, but those higher on the scrotum pole have no idea. The illusion of senority is nauseating. I can understand in a Union environment but this was no Union shop. Apparantly Kansas City has the same "quality" of worker as does Philly.

I'm glad Rocky was not from these times. He would probably get KO'd by Adrian. LOL

By js55

Date 10-16-2008 14:29

"Higher up the scrotum pole". Never heard that one. Thats funny.

By kipman

Date 10-16-2008 15:38

This may open a can of worms but here goes anyway. I spent 5 years in South Korea earlier in this decade, and then took a job here at home in the US. When the welders in the shop would hear that I had worked in Korea, their reply was inevitably, "Those so-and-so's are stealing our jobs!" I would then set them straight on that count by telling them of my experiences. They are as follows:
The Korean welders earned more per hour than the welders in that part of the US and still could give a better price. The reason the Koreans were able to produce a high quality product at a good price was simple. The only difference that I could see was the work ethic. In the Korean facility the foreman would make the rounds of his guys to see how things were going, and if a welder mentioned that he was almost out of grinding discs the foreman would hand him some discs on his next time around - the welder stayed there and welded. In the US facility, a welder would wait until he was out of discs (not mention it to his foreman ahead of time) and then go to the tool room. On the way he would tell his buddy, "Hey I've got to go get a disc. Need anything?" And his buddy would say, "I'll come with you. I need a contact tip". Not ask his partner to get him a tip but go with him. And of course they wouldn't get back to their workplace for a while because they had to discuss hunting and sports with other co-workers along the path to the tool room. I saw this many times and was unable to have any effect on this practice. One of the reasons I left (I didn't think the company had great long-term potential).
So I would tell these guys that the Koreans (or whoever else they wanted to blame) are not stealing our jobs. We're giving them away through inefficiency.
Mankenberg

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 10-16-2008 16:15

Kip, that can of worms I have opened many times. Although I have never had the pleasure of working outside of the US, I have worked with various races and if they work as hard in their former countries as they do here, the there is no doubt in my mind that Americans are giving their own jobs away.

My former employer, from which I was laid off from 2 weeks ago today, has a very big problem with the employees that they did retain. Many would tell me, "I wish they would fire me so I could collect unemployment". I would here these types of comments daily by their senior employees. Since I had been there for only 3 years, myself and 4 or 5 others had to go.

The money wasn't bad for the amount of work we had to do. But I was trying to get out of there anyway. I just would have liked to get out on my own terms.

Also Kip, I'm sure that you will catch some flack from somebody over this post soon. But don't worry I got your back. LOL

By js55

Date 10-16-2008 17:36

I would agree 100%. Seen it myself. But I would also add, that if we build a society with a sense of entitlement, and government handouts, a mentality of seniority, is it any surprise that people might actually wish to take advantage of those entitelements?
And I quote.
"I wish they would fire me so I could collect unemployment".
Good quote Bryon.

And it seems our answer to the problem is to blame business for wanting to go somewhere else where the labor force is more productive. Whats wrong with this picture?
So lets continue to vote for those who support entitlements, who support organized labor (dont' foget that I am a Union member myself and proud of it-when it deserves it), who support protectionism, who bash businesses for wanting a productive work force, and then act bewildered at the result.

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 10-16-2008 17:48

The entitlement that we have as a society is to take care of those that for what ever reason can't take care of themselves and to provide an environment where we can thrive.
I agree whole heartedly with the phrase "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Those who can afford to add more to society, financially or otherwise, should. We are our brothers' keepers. Society must provide an environment where ALL people can thrive not just survive.

By js55

Date 10-16-2008 18:40 Edited 10-16-2008 18:49

Bryon,
Therein lies a major difference between you and myself. While I readily agree your sentiment is noble, the fact that your quote is not only notoriously ambiguous (and is proven as such through its appalling historical abuse and multiple interpretation), it is disturbingly naive.
Its a pretty expression of wealth redistribution (I can't get the image of the pigs Napolean and Snowball from Orwell's Animal Farm out of my head when I think of the expression). There will always have to be the Napoleans, (somebody has to make decisions) and there will always have to be the plow horses (somebody has to do the manual labor). How do the pretty words decide who decides and who pulls the plow? The "ability"? Who decides upon the ability. And how convenient for those with the ability for a life of leisure.
Problem is, if enforced to its logical conclusion you soon have no wealth to redistribute. Those who have been productive and are required to contribute more and more and more, soon grow tired of it and refuse to produce. Or at least find ways to conceal their productivity. Until everyone is claiming "according to his need". In other words, there will be no brothers to keep us. Except maybe the biggest of them all, the government. What a fascist nightmare that would be.
At best it is naive to impose upon a real world. At worst it becomes destructive of human inventivenss and ambition, and fosters hatred and resentment.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-16-2008 18:51 Edited 10-16-2008 19:23

Bryon,

When you said
"The entitlement that we have as a society is to take care of those that for what ever reason can't take care of themselves and to provide an environment where we can thrive."

I don't believe people in our society are entitled to be taken care of "for whatever reason" I think the reasons need to be valid.

The Apostle Paul said this:
"While we were with you, we gave this order: "If anyone doesn't want to work, he shouldn't eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10

The examples of systemic failure due to laziness personally and apathy across a company all take place in an environment where we can thrive... They simply choose not to.

Students can thrive in the worst urban areas in the U.S.. Even the worst schools have outstanding students... Why? Because there is a very real environment where they can thrive, It may be more difficult but they can and do!

Work ethic starts at home..... If mom and dad have poor habbits or maybe a broken home it's extra tough for youngsters to learn about excellence and hard work... Mom or Dad being gone all the time is not the best example of hard work (even if they are gone to work and working hard). Somebody needs to show Jr. How to shovel snow by going out with him and shoveling more then Jr. does. Somebody needs to sit over the kid's shoulder and watch the homework. Heck, I loaned my kids out to farmers I knew to be of strong character, to put them to work in the summers and the first summer they worked for free, so that they could prove to the farmer they were of value!

A wise person told me to always outwork my sons when we did chores together... I did that until I was unable to outpace them.. They are now stronger and better than me and they get great satisfaction and joy seeing me panting in the snow, and I get the satisfaction of knowing the lads know how to work, no matter what the work might be.

Part of my fathers work ethic (add to heros post) was that he would be home to has family every day at 5pm. He got up very early in order to do this.. He would pull up at 5:15 every day and I would be on the porch with his baseball glove and would only give him time to take off his tie. I don't know if he enjoyed this or was annoyed,, but he did it! Also, he never once in my presence raised his voice to my mother... <now there is an environment where someone can thrive>

Those other countries that were mentioned to have excellence in work ethic also have strong families at the core of their society.. With parents highly involved in being examples to their children. Just like the majority used to be here in America.. Now in many cities the majority of homes are broken and it takes only one generation to forget about work ethic. It's learned not bred.

When people need help they ought to be assisted.. I think the government should play a small roll in this and private organizations (churches etc) should play the major roll. People are people and many have a tendency to take rather than work if they are given the choice. I think welfare monies should be restricted to folks who find themselves without a choice "for whatever reason".

You also said:
"Those who can afford to add more to society, financially or otherwise, should."
Ok fine... But should add and being compelled by taxation are two different things.

No nation on the face of the earth gives more than the U.S. both domestic and abroad. But I strongly disagree with any notion that the federal government can be wiser and more generous with my earned resources than I can be.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-17-2008 17:28

Agree 100%
I have seen it in Japan as well.

3.2

By RonG

Date 10-16-2008 16:53

It's an age old problem, its called complacency mixed with an attitude of superiority.

We worked our way up from meager beginnings and make a name for our self's by putting forth a good day's work for a good days pay in an effort to make life better for our children.

The kids never really understand what you have been through because you have always protected and sheltered them. Some us manage to get the message across but hearing about it and living it is 2 different things.

Some folks get so wrapped up in trying to make ends meet they forget what they set out to do and fail to try to teach the next generation about such things, the schools will teach them everything they need to k now. Right?

Where did you learn the REAL value of a dollar? When it was handed to you because you ask for it or when you got out and earned it?

But to imply all of America is lazy is an untrue and unkind statement. For the most part Americans try to work smarter not harder because they are not hungry and by the grace of what ever if any Entity you worship you can be grateful for that.

Just keep that in mind when you take time out from your labors to enjoy your children and help them to understand we have a lot to be thankful for and contrary to some opinions this country still holds lot of promise.

By MDG Custom Weld (***)

Date 10-16-2008 17:27

Well put Ron!!!
I learned it at a young age, working for it, while my friends were playing Nintendo.
Now that I have it, I'm passing it on to both of my kids so they too can be self sufficient. No free dollars, everything is earned.

By JTMcC

Date 10-16-2008 19:33

I didn't even come close to reading all of this, but I'll add that I see the hard working American every day.
I also see hard working young Americans (of the current generation) every day as well. They get tagged with the lazy entitlement mentality, but I know a lot of young, hard working men/women in the pipeline construction field as well as others.

Remember this, the good hand HAS a job, he isn't out there going from job to job to job getting fired, hired somewhere else, fired, hired somewhere else, ect, ect. That process makes it look like there are a lot more slackers out there than there really is. My take.

JTMcC.

By Jenn

Date 10-16-2008 20:27

"Remember this, the good hand HAS a job" - or TWO.... I couldn't agree more! OR gets his/her next job by word of mouth and good references from people they know within that company - so no need for the random tryout process.

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 10-16-2008 20:46 Edited 10-16-2008 20:49

I managed commercial kitchens in Las Vegas for many years. Some of the hardest working people I ever met in my life worked alongside me there. Male & female, all ages, races & cultures. That was ten+ years ago.

That said, a great deal (certainly NOT all) of the young people out there now with half a dozen facial piercings, their heads stuck in $500 video games & their thumbs glued to the texting board on their phones are worthless.

They truly are the epitome of the word "ENTITLEMENT" Truly the "ME FIRST" generation.

They wouldn't KNOW what to do if someone came along & took it all away from them & sent them to work at 14 like so many of us more "mature" guys (and gals, Jenn :-)) had to do.

It's a shame that most of them learn their pattern of ethics from their parents. Sad to say, when mommy drops the kids off at school in the morning looking disheveled and dirty, in her baggy, wrinkled pajamas & arrives that afternoon to pick them up looking much the same.............

Not hard to see why.

FWIW S.W.

By pipeliner 798 (**)

Date 10-16-2008 22:02

that must have been some hard work in that kitchen !!!!!!!!!!!! out of the weather, air in the summer, heat in the winter. since when did body piercings make a person lazy? ect. ect. ect. i dont have piercings or think there cool along with a lot of other of todays fads but that doesnt makem lazy, yall talk about how hard yall had it and how hard yall worked as a kid, well guess what the older generations always say the same crap, i can remember my grandad saying the same about my dads generation. iv even heard songs about it (get a haircut and get a real job) and i dont know what yall do for a living but come on down and see what the "entitlement" and "me first" generation is doing everyday in my eyes, try running in mud and water up to your nuts while you workin wood in a pipegang skidden 100 plus joints of 42'' a day or throwing a wet belt that weighs about 60 pounds over your shoulder and running (in the same conditions) 180 feet to beat the set in tractor to the next joint so you can have the belt around it before he gets there, and if you get lucky and its not wet and muddy, its probobly so hot you cant breath and so dusty you cant see, plus your out of the mud so guess what, that 100 joints aint good enough, now lets go for 150 or more. oh and what about the ones over seas getting shot at, blownup, and dying, i dont here them hollering "me first" while your in the a/c typing on a computer and there going through hell

yes i agree theres lots of them got it easy but there a hell of a lot of 'em that work harder before lunch than most people do in a week ( but you want find them in a breakroom so put your coffee and newspaper down and go were the work is.........yes that will be them, coverd in the dirt and sweat

lets here some good about america and our youths, yes they both have problems, but i still believe in them

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 10-16-2008 22:33 Edited 10-16-2008 23:04

Dude.....You don't even have a clue. I'll leave it at that. You didn't read what I wrote very well did you?

Maybe you should go back & read it again (take into account I said NOT all kids) I take it you totally missed that part??

Please, don't direct your indulgent claims of self-importance at me when you never climbed in a 300 degree, grease laden, filthy oven, ragging it down with chemicals that would burn off your hands if you got it on them. No masks & PPE back then. We cleaned 15 outlets a night with 9 people. Dishroom on average was around 120 degrees, humidity, 100%. One worker would wash over 800 pots & pans in a single shift BY HAND, soaking wet from your collar to shoes. Well over 1100 pots alone on a 1000 place cover banquet.

Our buffet at Circus Circus would serve well over 6500 people a day, over 10,000 on busy weekends & holidays. I ran a 20 outlet shop with 22-25 people. I cleaned stoves & oven for three years before doing that. I didn't just get an easy job handed to me. In fact, there was nothing easy about managing a crew of individuals doing the work either. I got to cover replacement duty when someone didn't show up....On a regular basis. They worked hard & earned their money. Not to mention doing it all on a strict time schedule, NO overtime allowed. If the buffet main kitchen didn't get cleaned & open by 3:30 AM,( start time 12:00 AM) people could lose their job.

Everyone got all over Sourdough for making an out of line claim regarding something he was not all too familiar with. Maybe you didn't bother to read that either???

Wake up pal. If you think I sat on my ass in the AC in that kitchen, maybe you need to take a look at the inside of a 36" X 24" exhaust duct.....From the inside, in the summertime, with a scraper & bucket to put the grease out of it in. :-)

EDIT: I never attacked your line of work or your integrity or work ethic did I? I do not appreciate you going off, half cocked, erroneously making claims of things you really know nothing about. I do not appreciate you attacking me as a lazy, unmotivated individual. Although I have had more demanding physical jobs, working in the heat & stress of the kitchen was the hardest job I ever have had in my life.

It was filthy, thankless work. People made a mess out of what you worked hard to clean right infront of you seconds after it was finished. It was comical to them.

I know how hard you guys out there on the firing line work & I respect that. Give me a little too.

S.W.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 10-16-2008 23:19

All one will need to do next year is wait until someone passes the $200K mark then brother Berry will help the worthless lazy bastages by "Spreading the wealth" After all it is only fair. You have more so our gov will take it away with the force of guns from the productive and give to the unproductive.
In about 3 years people will wonder where the productive have gone.
Remember Atlas Shrugged.

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 10-17-2008 01:20

I heard McCain quote Obama as saying, "Spreading the wealth". I never heard it from Barack himself. Its a 3% increase of taxes. Its not like they are gonna come into your house and steal money and run to the projects and just hand out cash. Even Warren Buffet said that his tax rate is lower than his secretary. If someone is worth millions they have "shelters" to hide their money to avoid taxing much of it. It won't hurt the rich to give up a little more tax money. A million extra from Donald Trump, Bill Gates as well as others can release some of the burden on others. I know $50 extra a week in Joe Blow's (Six Pack or the Plumber) taxes taken would hurt him a helluva lot more than an extra million from a billionaire.

Maybe some of you out there are making $250k, but I know no one who is. So let them pay.

By ctacker (****)

Date 10-17-2008 02:26 Edited 10-17-2008 02:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rYgKFWHzE0
you can hear him now!

He also will give the 1/3 of americans that don't pay taxes a check at tax time!

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 10-17-2008 03:55

I stand corrected on that tidbit. Nevertheless, the current taxrate on $250k + is what 36% that will only be about a $7000 increase with the proposed rate increase to 39%. We all know how easy it is to manipulate taxes. If you have a business or make that much money working for it, then you have options to "shelter" the money. If you don't make much money then there is nothing left over to shelter so you get the hit.

By jrw159

Date 10-17-2008 05:22

Tidbit???? Come on now.

By js55

Date 10-17-2008 13:37

You stand corrected on a lot of tidbits. Whats rare is when you admit it. :)
And wait a minute. If its so fricken easy to shelter money just what is the point to taxing the rich. How is Obamessiah then going to pay for his programs? Is Obama too stupid to know about tax shelters? So, he gets no money from the rich becasue they shelter, and he's going to cut taxes on the middle class, where's he gonna get his money? From the poor? Or is it just to make liberals feel good that he's pretending to beat up on those mean old rich people. Good God man. Pick one side of the fence and stay there.
Either he's taxing the rich and its justified in liberal land so he can pay for his programs, or he ain't becasue they can shelter, and its a sham.
And where does that 'its just little increase' argument end? When there aint no more rich? It OK. Go ahead. You can say it.

By pipeliner 798 (**)

Date 10-16-2008 23:42

very nice point about me not knowing the work in a kitchen!!!!!!!!!! lesson learned

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 10-17-2008 01:35

Thanks! I appreciate that. I really do. :-) Working in institutional or commercial food service is very demanding & stressful work. I spent almost seven years doing it, four as a worker, three as a Steward, or supervisor. I learned a lot about myself & relationships with others when I worked there. Especially when we were really short on staff & everyone had to work together. I still have a very deep attachment to the work I did & the people that worked alongside me, hence the vehement response. For that, I do apologize. :-)

I know you guys work your butts off on the pipeline & earn your money. It's filthy, hard work. I guess it's just two different kinds of stress. We always had to work to a set schedule. I worked Graveyard & all the heavy cleaning was done then. The morning guys started coming in as early as 3 AM & everything HAD to be ready for them, regardless of how many people didn't show up. One night, we completely lost power in the entire main & secondary kitchens. I was down there, in the dark, with my stove cleaners, swamping out fryers & cleaning out ovens with little more than a few flashlights. We still opened on time. Not to toot my horn, but I was proud of that night. All my guys & gals came together & made it happen. I'm sure in your line of work, the same type of situations have arose & every hand rose to occasion. Gives you a real feeling of accomplishment when that happens. :-)

As far as today's kids go, I would never stereotype anyone because of their dress or lifestyle. I'm covered with tattoos & I know how it feels to be judged. Still, many youths today have no concept what it was like for us & many, sadly have a lack of motivation to apply themselves. BUT....There's a LOT of good kids out there with the drive to be somebody & make a road for themselves. I volunteer at my son's school & get a good look at both types.

Until you do it, you never know what it's like....In ANY line of work. Take care & welcome to the forum! Steve.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 10-17-2008 16:45

this is directed at no one in general, but in fact America IS one of the hardest working industrialized countries. Our work year is longer than every other western country, we have shorter vacation, shorter unemployement and more expensive healthcare.

Interestingly enough a few years ago a Dutch boilermaker company bought out an a plant here in PA and sent in dutch management and some workers, the first thing they asked was "how come there's no beer in the break room' and how come we work in the MONTH of July.

while there will always be anecdotal stories and I'm sure we've all been at jobs where there were a bunch of unmotivated or lazy workers. However overall we're one of the hardest working countries. Actually too hardworking, it lowers are quality of life. We're the richest nation in the world but far from the happiest

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 10-17-2008 17:03

You're correct, Joel. France's average work week is ten hours less than the average 40 hour one here.

I agree, you have so many hard working people here, but it seems from my standpoint, many of the youth today are not embracing the same values.

It's a mixed bag, depending on how you look at it. Most all the young people who worked either with me or for me in the kitchen were by far, some of the hardest working, most earnest individuals I have ever had the experience of knowing. There were a few bad apples, but most of the staff would give it their all.

I just see the mommies in their PJ's, cell phone stuck in their ears, dropping their kids off every morning at school & wonder what kind of values they are teaching THEIR children. Our neighbor across the street literally has a cell phone in her ear every single time I see her. She's always either coming or going, letting her three younger kids play outside, in the road while she's setting up the next club date to meet one of her boyfriends while her husband is gone to work.

It's really sad it's what it is. Her kids are not bad kids, but you can clearly see the bad example rubbing off on them.

FWIW S.W.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-17-2008 17:36

How do you calculate that?

3.2