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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Engine Driven Welder types
- - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-15-2008 17:39
I'd really like the way some of the big engine driven welders (like Lincoln's SA-200) hold up for generations. Typically, they are water cooled, too, so they run quieter.

However, the welders with small CC engines (like Lincoln's Ranger line) support Multi-Processes (AC/DC, CC/CV) but are louder because they are air cooled.

Why don't any of the large engine welding machines support Multi-Processes?

How would a small engine last compared to a big engine? I can't imagine a welder showing up with a Lincoln Ranger 250 on the back of his truck on a big pipeline project!

Why don't the big welding manufacturers make something that fits this gap?

A Pipeliner that is out of work might want to accept an aluminum job, or the power might go out and he may want to use that big engine to generate whole house power.

A Novice (like me) might want a smaller, Multi-Processes welder that doesn't cause the cops to show up at my house (noise) every time I crank it up.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 10-15-2008 18:55
Vantage line from Lincoln, also 305D............
Parent - - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-15-2008 19:15
Those are cool, but both the Vantage line and the 305D are DC only machines:

Lincoln Comparison
..or, expanded as: http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentseries.aspx?browse=101|400|, but you'll have to tack the "|400|" part on yourself as this board does not recognize that part.

AC welding would be needed for Aluminum, I believe, and maybe other materials that I never work on. (Doesn't mean I don't want the ability!)

Small CC engines seem like they simply would not be as dependable for rigorous, long haul jobs.

Does anyone know otherwise?
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-15-2008 19:40
the vantage 300, 400 and 500 all have ac/dc power the 400 and 500 are multi process machines meaning you can burn rod with it and have another guy migging at the same time they are ac/dc machines have seen them in person the 305 d is ac'dc as well
Parent - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-15-2008 19:48
Lincoln needs to update their info, then!

Thanks.
Parent - - By leterburn (**) Date 10-16-2008 01:59
I've got a Vantage 300...   it's DC only for welding, cc / cv tho - but it does have a boatload of AC power - even 3ph power but it's not AC welding only aux power.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-16-2008 02:46
when i sad ac/dc i meant ac/dc power sorry i should of clarified it more
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-16-2008 04:09
You could get a blue one. Miller has made some large AC/DC machines like the Trailblazer 44 & 55, Big 40 Delux and Air Pak.
Parent - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-16-2008 13:08
Blue welders seem to be everywhere, but someone with a blue welder just isn't taken as seriously as someone with a red machine for some reason.

I've never owned a blue one, so personally I could not tell you what's up with their reputation.
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 10-20-2008 15:38
I am currently running a miller big 40 delux and have no complaints at all.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-16-2008 13:42
Actually, Miller makes several multi purpose machines, Lincoln as well CC/CV, but really, the market supports what it sells. Most serious structural operators are going to use DC current, and either CC or CV, few using AC unless they are running some really, really big electrodes. I have no experience with that though. The Big Millers & Lincoln Vantage line are very good multi process machines & offer a great deal of AC aux. power. No AC current on the Lincolns though. The deluxe Miller Big 40 series, can be purchased with optional CV & AC weld current as well.

The CV current on those, is created, regulated & controlled by solid state electronics though, not by a separate tap setup like on a Bobcat. The deluxe model also produces 15 KW of aux 3 phase power, 12 KW single phase.

Many of the newer, multi purpose machines are heavily controlled by inverter style, solid state electronics. This allows them to do a variety of tasks, without traditional separate transformer taps & electronics to run each portion of a unit. The Miller Pipe Pro 304 is an example of this. As far as inverter technology goes, it's here to stay & for the most part, does a real good job.

I have said before & will say again, regardless of what a few might think, I am not a big fan of it. Great stuff.....Until it breaks down. Lots of problems there.

Sure, there are a few machines that will "do it all", but ask yourself how much AC welding you may actually want to do & what you want to spend on a machine to do it. I have seen lots of big rigged out guys have a big Lincoln or Miller for the bulk of their work & use a smaller air cooled machine for occasional AC jobs, or run an inverter TIG machine off the AC power of their larger machine. That would really be your best bet, if you were looking to get into a bigger machine. The Lincoln Vantage is supposed to be a really good unit. I have never used one, but they supply a lot of aux power & do DC CC/CV as well with diesel power.

Good luck. S.W.
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-21-2008 12:03
the only thing i dont like about the vantage machines is when you're not use to them they are as quiet as a church mouse when they are at idle
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-21-2008 14:55
Why would that be hard to like? I had the 305G for 5 years and the first time I heard a Vantage 400 it was love at first sight. They both weld the same but that quiet purr is what sold me and of course it being a Lincoln.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-21-2008 21:35
just a personal preference i like to hear my machine when i'm burning
Parent - - By 8898jsmit (*) Date 10-17-2008 03:53
jp2welder,
With the engine technology that goes into atv's and motorcycles, a Ranger 250 w/ a liquid cooled v-twin would be pretty cool.

And by the way, unless your after AC tig, I can weld aluminum by stick or with my spool gun off my DC only Ranger 250.   If your looking at a Ranger, I can't say anything bad about mine other than it's loud.  1000hrs and not a single problem.  My next machine will probably be a bigger one, but this one has served me well and done everything I have needed it to do.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-17-2008 04:41
A Ranger would be sweet with a small liquid cooled engine. The Diesels on the trailblazer 302 D are pretty sweet too.

Lots of stuff for different needs. Lots & lots of stuff. S.W.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 10-17-2008 20:43
The Miller Trailblazers have 2 cylinder fully pressurized oil systems. They have a three phase welding arc. Very smooth easy arc strikes & restrikes. Can't say the same for the Rangers. They have single phase welding arcs.
Parent - By 8898jsmit (*) Date 10-17-2008 21:22
Never knew that one about the 3 phase welding arc. That would be really smooth.  I know theres no comparison between single phase and 3 phase when it comes to wirefeeds. 
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-17-2008 21:31
I like them better myself. Don't badmouth red machines around here too loud....:-) :-)
Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 10-18-2008 04:21
Thats true steve!! you could get lynched for saying negative things about lincolns, especialy comparing them to millers.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-18-2008 12:25
Well, as I have said in the past. I am not really familiar with engine drive machines of either type & this was right about the last time a certain someone had to throw his .25 cents in about how little I REALLY knew... :-)

Miller makes the best multi purpose SHOP machines money can buy, no comparison as far as I'm concerned. They have the best technical support service as well & I will put any wager to be made on that.

That said, that Vantage engine drive has a lot of good things to be said about it, at least around here. I'll never own one (unless I got it cheap because I'm poor :-)) but I would really like to weld with one & take a look at the insides of it. I'll still stick with a DC generator torpedo machine for the best stick welding arc ever conceived, S.W.
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-20-2008 16:15
Well Steve, I will agree with you about Lincoln having a great arc. Have you ever tried or worked on Red-D-Arc machines.? I know they have a Lincoln generator w/kubota motor but I know guys dropping their 300D's for one of these. Care to comment? B
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 16:59
Hi, Bob. I don't know anything about them. I hear they are made in Canada, but can't say for sure. I believe there are differences between that machine & the one Lincoln puts their name on, but I don't know squat about them other than secondhand information. I have heard the same though, they are preferred over the Lincoln variant. Funny, because in most cases, the huge rental business buying machines in volume from the manufacturer usually just have their name put on their equipment, not really much more. Not with Miller stuff I have seen anyways.

I will freely admit, I have little experience with engine drive machines. Not being a really mechanical engine repair type of guy, I don't like working on them & I try to avoid buying them to resell specifically because the engine makes it a high risk sale if it's anything other than lightly used & really low hours. If a failure were to occur, it could quickly become a serious loss if the engine were to need any heavy repair. I work out of my garage & don't really have the room to work on them, I would have to send the engine out, at a great expense to have it repaired. It's just not my thing, I guess.

One day, when I get some more room, I'll get into them. Now, what I do keeps me busy enough! Have fun! S.
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-20-2008 19:21
Well that got me looking. Red-D-Arc/Welderentals is an Airgas company which is US based and owned. I was just curious if you had any slide your way in the past. But they are quite common here and maybe for the new guy just riggin out and wants to lease. Personal note: I have used this machine and it's arc characteristics are no different than Lincoln but it's always on high idle. Really hate that. Go Rays!
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 20:17
That's the difference! The idle doesn't go down. I remember Kaye Sellon saying something about it, but couldn't remember what. I thought they were just the same machine, with different graphics. I hear a lot of guys liked them, but I could have mis heard. Are you actually considered Canada where you're at? You're British Columbia, right? I was told by someone that the actual machine was manufactured by Lincoln in Canada, could have heard that wrong too......

I have a nice Syncrowave 250 TIG machine for sale if you know anyone!! Just thought I would mention it. See ya. S.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-22-2008 20:33
K.Sexton    You are so right. Everyone should know you cant compare a Miller to a Lincoln. There is no comparison. Lincoln wins Hands down Every time
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-22-2008 20:40
I'll agree when it comes to engine drive machines, especially DC generators.

Miller owns the multi process market on shop units & inverters though.

Their inverter technology has always been cutting edge & selection of machines & wire feeders is unmatched.

I don't think that's all that relevant to you on a rig or pipeline though. :-)

Of course, that's just IMHO.

BTW, you look pretty cool on that gator Cactus! :-) S.W.
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 10-23-2008 00:02
Lincoln DC genarators has the best stick arc period. One thing i will say is the pipepro 304 and the vantage's in my opinion has the better arc consistency, the arc doesn't fluxuate through out the day. Thats one thing inverter type machines have going for them.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 10-20-2008 14:07
No offense taken but when a fact is stated that one machine has a feature and another does not have it. This is not "bad mouthing". I would believe an opinion would be bad mouthing. A good test is always worth a thousand opinions. Go to a distributor and ask for a comparison demonstration, your hand your arc their machines. Blind test if you must.
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 14:16
Yeah, that's more of an inside joke for the guys around here. :-)  Blue doesn't seem to be the color of choice on this site. :-)

Some of our more hardcore members get a little testy if they think you're downing a Red (Gray) machine. :-)

Only reason I say, there's been some rather heated debates involving that subject in the past.

I'm a Blue guy & I always will be. Still, I believe Lincoln makes the best DC only engine drives, as far as arc quality goes. That Vantage has a really good report on it as well. I would buy one of those before dropping big coin on a Pipe pro, or other big Miller engine drive machine. They seem to have been plagued with both engine & electrical problems.

For my needs, the little TB 302 I have works just fine.

As far as I'm concerned, Miller owns the multi process market, especially as far as shop machines go.

My thoughts on it anyways. :-)
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-19-2008 04:31
The Ranger 305D is about 700#. If I recall, Sourdough raved about His.
In the past there were Weld-n-Power 250 , Ranger 10 & Ranger 300 models that used a water cooled diesel. They are about 1100# and bigger.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-19-2008 14:35
Vantage is the only way to fly !!!
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-19-2008 17:46
Yeah man! Vantage all the way. You guys down south having any problems with diesel supply?  Fuel stations here are rationing and Flying J won't let you have more than $69 worth.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-19-2008 18:54
We can buy all we can afford !
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 10-19-2008 19:19
Price dropped in this part of north central Florida again today $3.63 a gallon (diesel)
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-19-2008 21:18
Just did a quick conversion. 4.5 litres to a gallon.  At $1.20 a litre, we're paying $5.40 a gallon.  Maybe working in the U.S. isn't a bad idea. Anyone hiring pipewelders?
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 10-20-2008 01:24
I don't think you want to make $25-30 an hour though!
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-20-2008 02:25
Whaaaat! Are you kidding me?  Well, on second thought, FLA. in winter doesn't sound bad. What's the cost of living down there? By the way, Tampa is doing a fine job on those 'Hawks tonite.
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 10-20-2008 04:25
And the Tampa Bay Rays are going to the World Series!
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 20:19
GO RAYS!! I still gotta root for the Phillies a little, I'm an underdog kinda guy!

TB Rays was my late Uncle Charles' team though!! :-)
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-20-2008 04:00
up-ten: Don't forget when comparing Your prices to US prices that Our gallon is only 4 quarts, not the Imperial gallon.
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 10-21-2008 02:15
Ok thanks. As we say here," les oops".
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-21-2008 12:12
I  paid 3.39 (diesel) just 20 miles south of San Antone on sunday first time the truck has been full in months
Parent - By J Hall (***) Date 10-19-2008 21:40
I sure do like my Vantages.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 20:49
Oh, BTW- Your site's pretty nice. I like the gate you built & the little gray trailer is sweet too.

I respect the fact you started out small & kept building up. That's the same way I got started. No need to put yourself in tons of debt to get going.

Cool stuff! S.W.
Parent - - By jp2welder (**) Date 10-20-2008 22:11
I'm still pretty much "small potatoes" over here. :)

Thanks for the kind words.
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-20-2008 23:35
I'm in the same boat. I do more repair on machines than I do welding anymore these days.

Better to have a few good tools, paid for than a $90,000 rig you'll be paying for for the next 10 years.

I don't feel like working 80+ hours a week to pay my stuff off either. :-)

Nice to have you here. Steve.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Engine Driven Welder types

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