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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Hiring CWI & MT/UT Insp
- - By rfieldbuilds (**) Date 10-15-2008 22:08
Hi, I am a long time reader and first time posted. I am wondering if any one can share possible avenues to begin looking for an  on call inspector for a 6 month period beginning in Nov in the Oklahoma City area. I too am a CWI and need to located an additional inspector(s) for a project. If any posters can make recommendations above and beyond the AWS job board, It would be much appreciated.
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-16-2008 02:02
inspectionjobs.com,  ndt.org, and rigzone.com all will let you post adds for inspectors also roadtechs.com.  Of course there is a small nominal fee involved.  But these are the ones the inspeckturs I know usually look at when we're looking for work.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 10-20-2008 17:59
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but other than roadtechs.com where might one advertise for welders?

Hg
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-20-2008 22:44
The AWS has a job posting section on the home page also.  There are a couple of "hotsheets" like the Industrial projects report that people run adds in too.  Just google construction job/hotsheet and you should get a couple hits.  But for exposure I would still say roadtechs is your best bet.  Or put an add with the specifics here on the forum.  You may be suprised at response you get.  I could possibly get you a welder or 2 myself depending on what the position pays etc.  Shoot me a pm with the hourly wage/per diem, number of hours etc. and I'll kick the bushes if you want but there is a shortage of guys/gals out there right now.
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 10-24-2008 01:06
there's no shortage of inspectors.  AWS is pumping out the 20 something year olds by the hundreds.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-24-2008 01:12
I thought therer was a shortage of inspectors now?
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-24-2008 01:21
Everyone I talk too tells me they are needing inspectors and welders.  I think there's a shortage myself,  I've gotten calls from almost every place I send resumes too and I have very little inspection experience although I have 20 yrs. welding background.  I think a lot of people are taking the test, I don't know how many are passing.  Also I think it depends on your background etc.  I know the places I've been would rather have an inspector who is a welder,  rather than a "shake-n-bake".
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-24-2008 02:09
That sounds good, Shake-n-Bake*.  I haven't had any in a while.  I like to take 1 package of the Tangy BBQ and mix it with 1 package the Spicy. Its yummy to say the least.

*Shake-n-Bake is a Registered Trademark of Kraft Foods.  No Animals were injured making this post.
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-24-2008 02:32
Well I'll be the first one to take issue with the screening of the applicants for the CWI exam properly, believe me (and I use the term screening loosely).  However, I still think a shortage exists.  I'm sure I'll get some flak here but there is way to many people becoming CWI's at an early age with little or no experience.  They need to do more screening,  only allow WELDERS to become inspectors and get rid of the CAWI category unless it's used to gain experience only.  Where else do you get rewarded with a title for failing a test???  OK you didn't fail as bad, but you failed. . . . imagine if we did that with the welders??  OK end of rant. . . . LOL
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 10-24-2008 02:41
When I first stated investigating the CWI career I had talked to a guy in KC here about it he said that CAWI is simply retarded.  From what I understand they can't really wipe their a** without a CWI there.  But I did find a company in St. Louis that hires CAWI's as well as CWIs.
Parent - By vagabond (***) Date 10-24-2008 02:48
They are starting to do it more because I'll give 3 guesses. . . . . . .wait for it . . . . . ... . .. . there's a SHORTAGE of inspectors!!!  And yes the overwhelming majority of CAWI's I've had the displeasure of working with in my short tenure as an inspector don't have enough sense to pour urine from a boot if the instructions were engraved on the heel in gold letters!!!!
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-26-2008 01:17
Byron

The only person in the world who cannot inspect a weld without supervision is a CAWI.  The "...visible and audible range..." wording is my contribution to the QC-1 1996.  Now,  that doesn't make him retarded  but it should limit his employment prospects.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-25-2008 22:05
only allow WELDERS to become inspectors

That would be a mistake. To many wanna be's out there both in NDE and welding. That is unless you feel someone with multiple LIII's for NDE is incompetent to perform inspection?
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-26-2008 01:13
vagabond

The Certification Committee has come very close to eliminating the CAWI several times since 1996. I was the prime mover for getting rid of CAWIs even before I became a CWI.  Of course "THEY" say we need the CAWI for those who pass the test at the CWI level, but who do not have the required education/experience combination.  I say do not let anyone take the test until they have the required Education / Experience.  However, AWS is addicted to money.

You will get no support in the Committee for restricting the CWI to prior welders only.  I will not go along with that idea either.

Three years ago, we upped the passing grade to 60% (I wanted 65%) for the person to get certified as a CAWI, and we put a lifetime three year limit on being a CAWI.  This will eliminate all of the "Professional" CAWIs.  We also made it possible for a person who has failed part of the exam to retake that one part, if they got a high enough composite score.

The problems associated with CWIs in general, comes down to a lack of INSPECTION experience.  I have met several non-welder CWIs who can hold their own with the Best welder CWIs.  All of them came from the NDT industry, and their previous experience with the contractors taught them how to act and how to carefully read the codes and controlling specifications.

To me, the next most sickening, shocking and scary thing is the numbers of CWIs facing "Nine Year Re-Certification", who will spend as much as $5000.00 of their own or their employers money to attend the week long "AWS Boot Camp", instead of taking a two hour practical examination for less than $500.00.   I say that if you are a professional inspector, you shouldn't be afraid of performing an inspection.

Joe Kane

   
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 10-26-2008 01:59
Let me take a moment to personally thank you for your effort in regards to the issue of CAWI's,  I'm sure this is appreciated by others as well as myself.  I would also like to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments regarding the 9-year.  I've seen people who are much more knowledgeable than me go all to pieces over the re-cert.  Unfortunately I will have to respectfully agree to disagree as far as non-welding people becoming inspectors w/o having to physically do any welding.  I am sure this will be a hot topic 50 yrs. from now as it is today.  I personally don't know of any other industry who does this.  I would not want a person to be flying my airplane or performing surgery on me if all they had done was "be around the industry" for a few years.  As another person put it earlier right now someone can sweep the floor in a shop for 5 years and he/she is qualified to sit for the exam.  I realize you are referring to NDT people and I will say that most NDT folks I've been around are very knowledgeable.  That being said,  I still maintain you should have had your hand hot a few times in your life if you are going to tell a person how to weld.  In actuality it makes very little difference what I think,  even though I haven't been inspecting for very long I have witnessed the bias that exists towards non-welder inspectors.  I'm not saying this is a solution to the problem or condoning this behavior,  I'm just stating what I see in the industrial/petro-chem world.  Although I rant and complain as much and probably more than most on this site I do appreciate what you,  Mr. Kane and all of the fine folks at the AWS do.  By and large it is a great organization and resource,  I just feel as a lot of people do that there is always room for improvement I suppose.  FWIW the non-welder issue is not to me personally a huge deal,  on the other hand the CAWI issue is.  I and I believe many of my colleagues would like to see the CAWI classification done away with.  It would also be nice to see a limit on the number of times one can take the test(s) imposed.  If your going to dream,  dream big right??
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-26-2008 15:13
The only part of the statements you've made I can agree with is in the CAWI. It should be eliminated.
As for doctors, all them had to start somewhere. They go through 7-10 years of advanced education before they are cut loose to be a doctor, but typically only a years worth of internship. They guy flying your plane is not the same guy inspecting it. Being qualified and certified to work on the plane, has absolutely zip to do with the ability to fly it. Not everyone that works at boeing, cesna, etc who build the planes actually fly them.

To be absolutely honest, I view the idea of limiting a CWI to welders only as dangerous to say the least. I for one, would rather not see a CWI who has no clue how to interpret the myriad of codes they have to work to, nor how to properly interpret NDE results. The ideal candidate in my eyes will be the CWI with NDE and Welding background both. However; that is especially rare. Good luck staffing the industry if you make that limitation.

The idea that a CWI tells a welder how to weld is also wrong. Inspection by definition is verification of a set of conditions. Is the welder adhering to the WPS, is the weld in compliance with visual acceptance criteria, but telling the welder how to weld? that gets to much into ethics for my taste. When I test a welder, or perform an inspection, it is what it is, I don't insert my opinion as to what they did wrong or right. In my opinion a CWI trying to tell a welder how to weld has crossed an ethics line. The welder either comes a knowing or not. It's not up to the CWI to perform failure analysis, or train the welder. There are other certs and qualifications for that.

Striking an arc is no promise of ability either. If anything, those testing to be a CWI who are welders in my opinion should have documented evidence of "CODE" welding. Not fence post welding or welding in their daddys shop. Farm code welding does not = CWI material, yet many sit for the exam who are just that.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-26-2008 15:44
CWI555,
  I totaly agree that the CWI should never be limited to just welders. However I do feel, as you do, that their should be at the very least a requirement to utilize the basic processes. Not to any test standards, or maybe a basic 2G unlimited with backing. Basically though, just actually have utilized the process for an 8 hour acumulated time. That would be 2 hours each on SM, GT, GM, and FCAW. This would not be to hard of a requirement to achieve if on is actually in the industry for the required amount of time.

I think it should be involved/added into the requirement of showing time in the industry.

jrw159
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-26-2008 16:06
Pretend for the moment I have no actual welding background. I hold ASNT LIII UT, MT, PT, VT and CWI. Qualified for RT LIII as well (though I'd almost rather take an A*** whipping that deal with RT any more) If I had never welded in my life, would I still be unqualified to sit for the CWI cert in your opinion?
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-26-2008 16:54
I see it both ways, I guess you did not gain all thoose certs overnight. But started slowly like the rest of us.
In my experience a CWI without welding background come via the NDT route(and get experience and knowledge through that)

CWI's with welding background usually go for the CWI first and then later compliment it with NDT certs.

Finally there is the "farmer welders" that makes their CV look good and sit the CWI examination and pass, and that group is IMO not fully qualified to be let loose in the inspection field.

The CSWIP 3.1 cert is more or less just a test of your short term memory, I guess the AWS is the same.

3.2
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-26-2008 18:20
Absolutly not. You would be more than qualified. I just feel that a small amount of actual usage of the processes helps one to better understand many things that come with day to day CWI inspection.

jrw159 :-)
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-27-2008 03:10
I don't disagree that it's helpful, (welding experience) and I've put myself through a few hundred hours of training in that regards over the years for that reason. I am not a professional welder, I don't have the arm for it. At best I am a mediocre welder. Enough to pass test, but not enough to excel at it. However; I do not believe it to be an absolute necessity. Relevant weld inspection experience as a minimum. Which to my mind should be inclusive of multiple processes. One thing I am sure of, having been a life long inspector, I've probably seen more variety of weld processes than most welders themselves do. 5 processes usually cover the knowledge base of most welders, SMAW, FCAW, GMAW, SAW, and GTAW. There are far far more than just those 5 out there. Each has it's own characteristics, including characteristic flaw types. No matter which way you go, time is a critical factor. If anything, I believe the relevant experience required for a CWI is far to short, 10 years seems more appropriate to me.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By vagabond (***) Date 10-26-2008 18:30
You have raised some interesting points and as usual your post(s) made me think about a couple of things.  Firstly I have to disagree with the statement you've made regarding telling them "how to weld".  Now I will agree that "how to weld" is a somewhat ambiguous statement, to clarify that at the companies I work for you are there to see that the welds are in line with a code, spec's, and/or criteria.  Now where I work that involves me telling them how to weld.  I don't have to interject opinion at all,  it's just a matter of you do it like this or you go away. . . . very simple and in no way unethical IMHO.  I am a very by the book guy,  I have never nor will I let opinion rule my decisions as an inspector.  I also believe in working with my welders as a team FWIW.  As to the idea of a person having both NDT and welding background,  I wholeheartedly agree.  Unfortunately I am enough of a realist to realize this will not ever happen.  As far as being qualified or not with a myriad of NDE certs to sit for a CWI my opinion really would be of no consequence because again it is my opinion,  not the code I am supposed to adhere too.  I'm reasonable enough to naturally think that certain types of experience would be considered as credible for a CWI.  Also I'm not talking about airplane builders to clarify.  Why is it plumbing inspectors are plumbers??  Electrical inspectors are electricians??  I could go on here but you see where I'm heading.  I know of a couple of companies who require their inspectors to be welders,  and as I've said in my earlier post I've worked with NDE people who are very intelligent and bring a lot of good qualifications to the table.  One sentiment that I see echoed throughout EVERYONES post(s) about this subject is the fact that as a body of inspectors we all want the people's backgrounds who are taking this test more thoroughly researched.  Because I agree that welding experience, just like ANY documented experience should be on code work.  I understand this type of stuff takes a lot of work and time,  but I believe the end result would be justified. 
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-26-2008 18:03
Not all clients or employers require the welding inspector to have CWI  by AWS / CSWIP. I believe many of these employers will be contended to see good resume. Some will be happy if you can include the certificates on welding inspection or NDT courses you attended. To have CAWI certificate will be much better than nothing (zero). It helps to entice you for another attempt.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-26-2008 18:25
Joey,
  One thing to realize is that most if not all of the times that a CWI is needed it will be as a result of ties from the contract to AWS standards, or IAS, AISC, or ISO standards, all of which will boil down to AWS certifiction or equivelant, thus rendering the CAWI usless unless they are under the direct supervision of a CWI.

jrw159
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-27-2008 00:28
jrw159

I live in the third world country where our salaries in pesos are not sufficient to pay the examination fee for CWI exam. Fortunately, we can still work because we met below category stated in D1.1.

(3) An individual who, by training or experience, or
both, in metals fabrication, inspection and testing, is competent to perform inspection of the work.

6.1.4.3 Assistant Inspector. The Inspector may be
supported by Assistant Inspectors who may perform specific
inspection functions under the supervision of the Inspector. Assistant Inspectors shall be qualified by training and experience to perform the specific functions
to which they are assigned. The work of Assistant Inspectors
shall be regularly monitored by the Inspector, generally on a daily basis.

I don't have CWI and to have CAWI is already a good achievement for me, which is better than nothing. So why CAWI should be eliminated when other people recognized it.

Joey
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-27-2008 12:58
Joey,
  For the most part, it is very rare that inspections will be acceptable per 6.1.4.1 (3) based off of the CAWI. It does happen, but generally it happens in third world countrys.

IMHO, one with a CAWI does not meet the requirements to do inspections without a CWI due to the wording "An individual who, by training or experience, or both, in metals fabrication, inspection and testing, is competent to perform inspection of the work."

Why would AWS themselves put the restrictions on the CAWI cert?

Might I ask why you have only CAWI? Was this because you do not have the required time in? Or did you score too low to achieve CWI?

jrw159
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-27-2008 14:32
jrw159

I failed one point in open code book (API 1104).
But I scored above 85% in two papers.

I'll try again once I have enough money.
Difficult this time bcoz of recession is coming, maybe I'll find work in Iraq.

Joey
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-27-2008 14:35
Joey,
  Good luck. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-26-2008 20:01 Edited 10-26-2008 20:34
Vagabond

The Certification Committee has also taken a step in limiting the number of times you can sit for the CWI examination.  We have opened a time interval between re-takes.  Since we have marketed the program as a form of "Licensure" to many government organizations, and they have adopted it and encoded it, it becomes legally impossible to arbitrarily (Even though there are enough voices on the Committee to get a balanced output on the subject) block someone from taking the test.

The International Code Council has that problem with their Special Inspector program.  They cannot impose any education / experience requirement restrictions on their test applicants.  I learned about this when I was on their Test Bank Committee for two years.)

I know some things must seem a "No Brainer" to people who are not on the Committees.  There are many ideas offered and considered.  We often seek legal advice from the Corporation Lawyer.  In the last revisions of the QC-1, we had to address the "Soldiers Sailors Relief Act".  This is something that did not come up before, because the country was not in a protracted war from the time of starting the CWI program until the second Iraq War.  Except for "Endorsements" there are also at least two or three committees involved.  The B-5 Qualification Committee that establishes the basis for qualification, and the Certification Committee that establishes the test bank and the rules for testing, certification and re-newall Etc.  Finall the Board of Directors in the form of a "Technical Council" has semi-final approval / disapproval  authority.

Nothing happens overnight.  In some cases, the two committees can work for years to come up with a program, and the Technical Council shoots it down.  This just happened this month to one of the programs that 803056 (Al Moore) was Chairman of.

Finally, you can't just sit around and "sweep the floors in an iron shop, and qualify to sit for the examination.  Read the QC-1 Standard!   Electrical Inspectors do not have to be electricians.  There is a national examination for it, and you do not have to be an electrician
Parent - By vagabond (***) Date 10-26-2008 21:07 Edited 10-26-2008 23:02
I have traveled quite a bit and the requirements for an electrical inspector in the North West states are very similar to what is below.  I direct your attention to the portion regarding the qualification of 4 yrs. experience as a Journeyman electrician or a degree in electrical engineering (which FWIW amounts to a total of 9 yrs. experience).  Either way the obvious requirement is that the persons taking the exam have taken part in some formalized training in the electrical field or done installations.  I am quite sure most electricians as well as electrical engineers have done more than simply review a book about electricity for a few weeks prior to the exam.  So I will stand by my statement that most, if not all fields that I know of require a person to be able to do the work before they can inspect the work.  As to the statement about it being a no-brainer perhaps I should look into volunteering for one of these committees and then I would have a better understanding of how things work.  I would gladly volunteer a portion of my time for a worthwhile cause if I felt it was going to get some things changed.    Obviously there are others who are unsatisfied as I am with the way certain things are handled,  I never addressed what QC 1 says,  I addressed whether it was being adhered to as did a number of people in their post(s).  The issue once again is whether or not said people are qualified and whether the documentation is being thoroughly researched etc. prior to the test being administered.  I and others were merely offering up some suggestions to make improvements to the system,  after all this should be the goal of everyone involved here,  to improve the quality of the program at large.  However at this point I am done posting regarding this issue,  as well as a number of others regarding the CWI exam.  Like the posts about low wages and other hot topics it is akin to discussing religion and politics.  It is interesting for a while,  and somewhat entertaining but most intelligent people realize they are not going to change the opinion of the other party in most instances.   

RCW 19.28.321
Enforcement -- State electrical inspectors -- Qualifications -- Salaries and expenses.
 

The director of labor and industries of the state of Washington and the officials of all incorporated cities and towns where electrical inspections are required by local ordinances shall have power and it shall be their duty to enforce the provisions of this chapter in their respective jurisdictions. The director of labor and industries shall appoint a chief electrical inspector and may appoint other electrical inspectors as the director deems necessary to assist the director in the performance of the director's duties. The chief electrical inspector, subject to the review of the director, shall be responsible for providing the final interpretation of adopted state electrical standards, rules, and policies for the department and its inspectors, assistant inspectors, electrical plan examiners, and other individuals supervising electrical program personnel. If a dispute arises within the department regarding the interpretation of adopted state electrical standards, rules, or policies, the chief electrical inspector, subject to the review of the director, shall provide the final interpretation of the disputed standard, rule, or policy. All electrical inspectors appointed by the director of labor and industries shall have not less than: Four years experience as journeyperson electricians in the electrical construction trade installing and maintaining electrical wiring and equipment, or two years electrical training in a college of electrical engineering of recognized standing and four years continuous practical electrical experience in installation work, or four years of electrical training in a college of electrical engineering of recognized standing and two years continuous practical electrical experience in electrical installation work; or four years experience as a journeyperson electrician performing the duties of an electrical inspector employed by the department or a city or town with an approved inspection program under RCW 19.28.141, except that for work performed in accordance with the national electrical safety code and covered by this chapter, such inspections may be performed by a person certified as an outside journeyperson lineworker, under RCW 19.28.261(5)(b), with four years experience or a person with four years experience as a certified outside journeyperson lineworker performing the duties of an electrical inspector employed by an electrical utility. Such state inspectors shall be paid such salary as the director of labor and industries shall determine, together with their travel expenses in accordance with RCW 43.03.050 and 43.03.060 as now existing or hereafter amended. As a condition of employment, inspectors hired exclusively to perform inspections in accordance with the national electrical safety code must possess and maintain certification as an outside journeyperson lineworker. The expenses of the director of labor and industries and the salaries and expenses of state inspectors incurred in carrying out the provisions of this chapter shall be paid entirely out of the electrical license fund, upon vouchers approved by the director of labor and industries.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-24-2008 12:47
Gentlemen,
  There is indeed a shortage, but let me clarify. There is a shortage of well educated (field & study) seasoned, inspectors, that have and know how to use all necessary guages, and can acuratly interpret many, not just one, codes. I have seen several times, an inspector that has been certified through AWS for 3 years or better, tested to API 1104, that does not know what an internal high-low guage is, let alone how to correctly use it.

These inspectors make it hard for the freshly certified CWI's to get a start. It is hard enough to break out with wet ink. Many will pass you by for a seasoned CWI, depending on the job. New CWI's will most often be hired on jobs where they work with or for a seasoned CWI. This is not always the case, but most of the time this is what I have seen.

I totally agree that the CAWI should go away, I am an inspector, not a babysitter, and direct supervision is required for a CAWI to be effective. Now we can argue all day about what constitutes "direct supervision" but at the end of the day, whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, we all know what that means.

Background and past experiance need to be tightened up as well. The way it is now, one could work for the required amount of time "in the industry" which could be empyting the trash and sweeping the floor in a welding shop, handing out consumables and changing out spools of wire for welders. This is indeed "in the industry". No where does it specify that one has ever had to actually weld.

jrw159
Parent - By johnnyh (***) Date 10-27-2008 18:16
Maybe there should be an Inspector Apprentice Program. 

-1 chance to pass the CWI test.

-Fail and you have to enter the school (online)

-Retake the test after passing the remedial classes

I am sure AWS could tweak it so they could turn a profit.  Just a thought.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-20-2008 16:49
3.2 Inspector
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Hiring CWI & MT/UT Insp

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