weaver, it is acceptable to run lh downhill if you are qualified to a procedure and a welding procedure is qualified to run downhill. As far as the strength of the of the weldment it is impossible to know because you did not fit or weld them originally. Most likely the other welder ran it down hill to not have a lot of build up to blend in for aesthetic reasons.
It is possible that the applicable contract specifications or the details on the prints require the weld progression to be uphill.
Typically the specs or prints will reference a code that the work will be performed to. In your case it is most likely AWS D1.1
3.7.1 Vert up welding requirements.
(2)When tubular products are welded, the progression of vertical welding may be upwards or downwards, but only in the direction (s) or which the welder is qualified.
Just curious, why are you reworking the rails? Bad welds, dh welding, doglegs,. etc.?
Weaver,
My first question would be, how easy would it be to remove the rails, re-weld & grind, then replace in the jail? Would make things a lot easier.
Second, more than likely the material would actually take you to D1.3 along with D1.1 because of the thickness and there are definitely qualifications for vertical down.
Third, while not the easiest thing to run 7018 can be run down without major difficulties especially on handrail. There is also a new downhill 7018 rod that had a major thread going here a while back. Many said it runs very well.
Next, why not use a small wire feed with either gas or gasless FCAW or GMAW to repair?
Many different codes can come into play with railings, depends upon which the engineer, inspectors, general contractor, etc. have called out for the particular application. In the jail I would imagine ADA, D1.1, D1.3, IBC, and possibly some others will be the most common.
Strength is in the fusion and depth of weld. I have often had my people use pipe inserts to have a preset gap and backing so they can have a more consistant, faster, quality weld. It doesn't have to be done that way, I just find the average railing welder can do better that way.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Weaver,
I hope your getting paid by the hour! I personally would scrap the entire hand railing (maybe you can have the salvage rights for home shop projects) and build all new from new material. If the previous contractor was that shady, no telling what other problems will arise as you get deeper into the job...ie the attachment welds to the wall and floor brackets and flanges. Remember, bottom line, now it's going to be your name on the finished product (wouldn't want any of them "jailhouse lawyers" practicing frivilous litigation on me).
As far as 7018 downhill, not an adviseable practice (has anyone here actually qualified a procedure to a recognised code with 7018 down?) The 7048 is D.H. Lh, but with the high amps needed to run ahead of the slag and on small bore to boot...receipe for frustration IMHO. If I were going to SMAW this, I would lean towards 6011 DCSP for low heat input, fast deposition, reduced crown on the cap to blend off and decent penetration/bead tie in for a DH small bore job like this.
However, some .045 innershield would be my preference. I've used it on square HSS and pipe handrails with good results.
On a similar note, I rebuilt a "factory made" (I'll not mention the brand) Roll bar that was barely even tacked together, the only thing holding the pieces together was the bondo!
Best of luck on your project.
Sounds like somebody needs to get a report to the owner's representative and let that person know that the welds have been ground out and filled with bondo. With that being the case, there's no telling whether the welds will now withstand the load requirements....even if you re-weld. If you weld over them and there's still a failure, you're probably going to be held liable.
The short answer is 'yes'. But I like your suggestion more as to using 6010 or 6011 to weld it out. However, it is not proper to 'go over' 7018 with 6010. Always go up in number, not down when repairing or correcting. If most or all of the current weld is removed it would probably be fine.
CBI, Cypress Specialty Steel, PDM and many others have used 7018 down for years. I continually passed 100% x-ray and bend tests using that procedure. But handrail is a different story. Still can be done. Probably not worth the effort for those not experienced in its' application or already qualified to run it that way and only trying to fix a small job.
And I do highly continue to suggest wire feed. Rather as Steve suggested with a 110 volt little machine or a higher quality machine. The 110's will pass certification tests by the way. Use a good one.
Have a Great Day, Brent
CBI has a down hill procedure for 7018. Besides 7018 is an all position rod
Cactus, thanks for the response.
I guess 7018 down hill is just one of those things that plays with the mind. Kinda like using Helium for carbon steel GTAW or getting on a horse from the right side.
All position, yes, but which manufacturers information spec sheet recommends vertical down progression?
CBI? coool! too bad it is proprietary information, I'd like to see those tensile and charpy figures.
Also, after having tested 15 welders (a couple of months back) and only had 2 pass, all due to slag inclusions with 7048 (developed specifically for down hill pipe), I wonder what CBI's pass/fail rate is?
CBI = Chicago Bridge & Iron The test I took for them has been several years back But, we ran 7018 uphill to fill and the 7018 down hill was a cap pass
Cactus,
When I hired in back in late 70's we did uphill with 7018, capped with 7018 down on 1" plate. We also ran 100% downhill on either 5/16 or 3/8" plate with 7018. Did it with other companies as well, but seemed more common with CBI. Been a few years, I try to use it from time to time just to say I can.
Have a Great Day, Brent
I'm going to contradict myself from a couple years ago. I always thought you would be an idiot to run lh down hill, but..............you can do it. Not only can you do it, but very effectively.
As long as your heat is up and you stuff the rod in, (man that sounds dirty), you wont trap any slag and your weld will be slim, trim, and strong enough to keep a convict in.......unless it's me.
I messed around on my own stuff - ranch repair etc to learn how to do it without bad results.
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