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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Nice Welds, Ugly Starts
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 11-19-2008 20:26
The applicable Code is AWS D1.2 for aluminum. The attached photos show intermittent fillet welds done by GTAW with 5356 filler. The welds themselves are beautiful but don't know what to say about the starts and stops. It seems to me that they are rejectable on the basis of incomplete fusion - or are they? They don't seem to fit the description of a crater.  Unless I can legitimately reject them, I can't force a repair or rework. Advice please.

Also, how to prevent this? Why can't they get the appearance of a smoother start/stop? Cup size too large for this fillet? The only available welding machines in use are transformer type power supply type (synchrowaves), no inverters available.  Thanks.
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Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 11-19-2008 20:49
Hello Tom, personally, I don't think those starts are too bad for aluminum. I don't believe you can make the same kind of start with the aluminum GTAW process that you can with SS or other types of materials. Are you basing your thoughts for rejection of the starts by looking for the leading edge of the weld bead to penetrate completely to the joint corner and you don't feel that it has taken place? Just looking at the photos they appear to me to have pretty good fusion in this aspect. As to the terminations(craters), if they are ending up with an actual crater that isn't filled up, then I believe you do have a justification for rejection there. I believe you already know that the unfilled crater is an invitation for a crater crack and an eventual weld failure. I will be interested to hear comments from others on this subject. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 11-19-2008 21:20
Actually the compressed photos don't show what I was most concerned about, so here is a croped photo (hopefully). And the concern is the apparently sharp discontinuity and void causing stress raiser and eventual cracks.
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Parent - By crazycajun (**) Date 11-19-2008 22:38
looks like he is not staying in the start postion long enough to actually melt into the metal. just starting and running with it so your first 1/4" or so probally has very little penatration.
Parent - By raptor34 (**) Date 11-19-2008 22:39
I would let that go, it looks to me like the stop is built up higher then the rest of the weld so having a little depression in that area is still more metal than in the middle of the weld, as for the starts, I think i would dye-pen to see if any IF showed up and let the dye-pen make my decision for me.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-19-2008 23:33
Tom,

I just can't really figure out what you don't like about those welds.

If you start in the middle and end in the middle of a fillet joint with aluminum (intermittant) that's what it looks like.

Causing eventual cracks????   Don't mean to take you to the wood shed here  :)      Cracks are there or they are not..  The weld is compliant visually according to the acceptance criteria of D1.2 or it's not.

If you want to see full pen at the starts and stops you will most likely have some craters.. The operator took extra effort to fill the crater as he tailed off the arc, that much is obvious.

If you are really conserned I would section and etch the fillets about  .125 from the starts and stops and look for fusion at the root....

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age......  (although Al and Joe Kane don't seem to be soft in theirs  >snicker<  )
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 11-20-2008 17:49
Actually, it is indeed a CIB to get that start 100% blended to the corner, I don't care what the process is.  "By the book," you have acceptable welds there.  That pocket under the start is very difficult to avoid with any aluminum; you can preheat and leave your arc on that start as long as it takes, but even the most skilled welders will likely make a molten mess of that joint before they get the "perfectly" blended start. 

That was Jekyll.  Here's Hyde:

I have seen starts like that develop cracks in both 5052 and 6061, with 5356 and 4043 fillers.  Because the end of the weld is joined only to the outer legs of the welded section, any movement in the part can stress that part of the weld to failure.  I'll bet Tommy could have some good input here, since he welds on airplanes, where this weld would likely be rejected.  But for D1.2, it should be satisfactory In My Opinion.  :)
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-19-2008 23:28
Without being able to bend a sample run exactly the same or even cut through at one of the welds mid point (perpendicular to the weld) to see if it had warmed up enough to start penetrating all the way, it is hard to tell rather there is proper penetration or not.  The surface of the weld doesn't look bad, but if it hasn't gotten more penetration than how the start looks there will be a problem.  You don't know if it started flowing right in 1/4", 1", or at all.

Can you insist on a test sample before allowing production to continue?  Wouldn't take long to run a couple of short welds with the same plate, machine, operator, settings, etc.  Then bend one and cut one and see if they pass.

It would not have to be pushed as needing to re-certify someone (depending on your exact job and responsibility) but only that the procedure may need to be changed to get a proper finished product.

Have a Great Day, Brent
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 11-20-2008 13:45
If the starts and stops are outside of the area to be welded, then let it go for sure.  It looks like you can see a pencil mark where the start of the intermittent weld was supposed to start and he started back behind the mark which is good.  Say your weld and pitch are 1-4 and you have more then 3" inbetween your welds, then it's not to code and it's no good.  If you have less then 3" inbetween your welds, it still conforms to code.  So if they have a lumpy start outside of the increment weld area and the rest is good, I say buy off on it.  If the start in question was right on the mark where the weld was supposed to start then I would reject it because it's not a good 1"(or however long it's supposed to be) weld it's more like a good 7/8" weld( or an 1/8" short of what it's supposed to be).  Ya smellin what I'm cookin?
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Nice Welds, Ugly Starts

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