These guys do the work that the rest of You wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Not every job is worth $75/hour with a 4 hour minimum.
Somebody has to do the **** work. Do YOU really WANT to do it?

johnyutah,  these guys are everywhere, that is what makes America great, they do this work on a"shoestring" and also do the jobs nobody else whats to be bothered with , usually somebodies get rich quick brainfart .I say "jump in, the waters great". They usually only mess you up on a small job or two before their broke or find out they don't have the ability to perform as required. Like you said not even enough sense to look presentable probably another reason why they work for themslves nobody in established business is going to hire them. Around here their called HACKS. But like I said they serve a purpose just can't put my finger on what it is exactly.But its America land of the free. LOL.   PS. GO STEELERS AND PENS.

It starts from the top and moves down.

If the boss doesn't care, why would you expect the worker bees to care.

The work they produce is probably on par with their house keeping abilities.

Times like these, when money gets tight, usually results in a weeding out process. The weak fall by the wayside and the strong survive and get stronger. In our world, strength is pride in doing a job right the first time, every time.

Money talks, but only to a point. Customers will put up with shoddy workmanship, arriving on the job late, leaving early, etc. when there is too much work and not enough workers. When time get tough, and they will, the poor workmanship and work ethics aren't tolerated. As soon as work picks up and money starts to flow, the fly-by-nighters pop up like dandelions.

Best regards - Al

Thats the best point yet however I hate fixing some hacks screw ups. But back to the point why not carry insurance certs and at least try and look like like you care I have a old 95 dodge that an 18 year old kid put together in 3 days and it looks slick and fairly cheap to and again look at steve and his trailers slick. There is no reason in my mind for that kind of trash making the rest of us look bad. And say the guy is struggling why work cheap thats defeating the whole purpose. 

"The best part is....They do all the CRAP most guys with any sense, real skill or self respect won't touch"

That can be applied to illegal imigrants. I can't say as I agree that it's the best part. "somebody is going to do it" be it you or them. From time to time I check myself and remember, that "crap" got me started. As soon as you forget where you began, you'll find yourself back there again. I still scrub pipe, pick up a yoke, or dig a ditch. It never pays to forget in the long run.

Johny,  Sorry if my rant sounded personally directed towards you.  And my direct response to one of your questions was clear down in about my fourth or fifth paragraph (subject was 'scab' workers I believe).  I left the shop right after posting to spend my day in jail.  LOL  Had to modify some doors on their isolation cells. 

I believe the basic thought here is the consideration of what is a scab and how does the amount of money a person charges for his servieces relate to rather they would classify as a scab.  At least that is the way I put your questions together. 

I understand and strongly agree with the several posts that have commented about looks meaning alot.  I too have used older equipment for much of my business.  Even now my main work truck is a 93 Dodge (also have an 05 & an 06 Dodge, but 93 gets most of the field work).  But if that equipment is kept in good shape, runs well, and allows you to do a premium job, then it will impress many customers.  And many of them actually prefer good older equipment to brand new, I'm paying this guy too much, equipment. 

Bottom line for me on the subject of 'scabs' is attitude, work ethic, and overall performance.  I guess I jumped on this a little harder than I needed because generally people are referring to union vs. non-union when they use the term 'scab'.  And as I already stated, to me that is not the case.

As to the wages, I agree, it is hard to understand how even with bad equipment, no insurance, license, etc, these guys even think they can stay in business at $35/hr.  And there are many of them here who do as you have said you have them too.  But they do have the right to try.  It makes it hard on the rest of us.  Especially during these economic times.  Then, even after they go out of business, people still think you should be able to work for the same rate that guy charged.  There is a reason my shop is still in business after 30 years, 12 under my ownership, while these guys come and go in 2-5 years.  I responded to a thread a couple of weeks ago about wages, how much to charge and stated my position on that in detail.  Basically, I think it is hard to stay in existence for anything less than about $75 and mine is based on an $85 average. Everyone's will be different because our costs vary per area and overhead.  But does charging too little make a man a 'scab' or just a very bad business man.  I still say it is attitude and ethics.

But lets not get too busy being critical of each other, or this poor welder who got caught in the middle of all this.  We need to try to encourage each other, support one another, give the best counsel we can when our advice is sought, try to educate each other ( and those who are just starting).  We are PROFESSIONALS.  We are CRAFTSMEN.  We have something that others should want.  A good life provided by the work of our own two hands by an honorable trade.

Personally, I also feel most people who work for too little money, rather for an employer or customers, have too little self esteem and pride in themselves first, then in their job.  Lets' help them improve that and we all benefit.  They will do better work.  We will all be safer. We will all make a good living.  I know, I'm living in dreamland here.  BUT, if we try, we can only improve things for everybody.  We'll be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

I better quit, I could go on forever.  Hope I'm understood. Again, just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent

Lawrence is letting his ability to stand back and look in objectively slip out and show....better tuck that back in Lawrence, someone might get the idea you are a wise old bird.

sounds like fix a leak is a blue collar welder for a reason

Johny,  You started out the other day stating this thread may bring some discussion.  You were right.  And some pretty fair discussion to my thinking.  Some well put thought for all of us to be considering.  Now it is up to each one to make some decisions on how we personally deal with some of these issues. 

I really liked the separation between scabs and hacks.  I've always considered welders to be either good or not worth a plug nickel.  But with some of the definitions supplied here the two terms definitely have their place among many we see come through our doors.

Have a Great Day,  Brent

haha I was more referring to the fact that most every welder thinks they are the best welder that ever lived, or that they are always right.

I've met my share of hacks in just about every discipline in Michigan, although Ann Arbor is shielded from reality because the university keeps the local economy stable and brings in lots of high tech work (not much welding wise) So Ann Arbor is still pretty sunny.

Anyways I did remember hearing scabs being referred to as people who take union jobs, usually at cut rate prices. If it's non union work to begin with it's hard to be a scab