Scab welders

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 12-06-2008 02:57

Someone my mom knew in the JOBS bank had five rental properties, played cards all day & maintained his property on the GM clock.

Now, THAT'S livin'!!!!!!

S.W.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-06-2008 15:24

You two talking about never meeting a hack, it is really funny, and sometimes annoying, how so many people who come through the doors of my shop start the discussion like this:

" I'm probably the best welder in this whole state but I don't have the equipment to do this job right now so how soon can you have this little $5 dollar job done for me?"

Don't know about you, but there are NO $5 jobs, not by the time I stop what I am doing, talk to them and listen to their qualification balony, take their job into the shop, get the equipment out needed specifically for their job, fix it or build it, take it to their truck, then argue with them about my charges, then they want a discount for cash and when you say 'okay' and give them a break they pull out a check and want a receipt. Real winners!

Have a Great Day, Brent

By sbcmweb (****)

Date 12-06-2008 16:49

Man, Brent. Had that happen a few times myself. Yeah, lots of real winners out there.

I just tell them, sorry, there's nothing I can do for you. I think I come across kind of rude to perspective customers on the phone, but usually the first question I ask them is what they want to spend. That usually ends the conversation pretty quick if they're a tire kicker looking for someone to bother.

Oh, Well. That's the biz. :-) S.W.

By Sberry

Date 12-06-2008 16:54

I would do it myself but I dont have the tools and dont know how,,,, other than that I would do it myself.

By raftergwelding (*****)

Date 12-06-2008 20:06

cash is cash not a check there are risks involved with checks there are only certain folks i will take checks from

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-07-2008 03:41

My point exactly Shad, some people just don't seem to understand what they are saying, that or they are as stupid as they look.

However, we do take checks from about anyone who we provide service to. Only lost out about twice in the last twelve years.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-07-2008 18:48

I don't know if I would have been classed a hack, but end of last year my brother in law had two jobs, two handrails, inside and outside that he wanted me to bid on. So I did and figured it at $40/hour(I had a day job). My truck was a 3/4 regular bed, nice,clean, trailer nice/clean and rented a welder, strapped to the trailer. I did alright on those jobs. Gave me money to convert my truck, buy the flatbed and so on. Not insured, no workers comp-no employees, no shop etc.

I did some work for him again 3 weeks ago or so. Have my cert and getting the 4g done hopefully by the end of the year. I got my insurance two days after I finished the second job and when he found out what I was charging per hour flew off the handle. So, now I have to justify "why" I have to charge what I do(for him) and as some of you know from another post I have on here it's not $75/hour. So, maybe he'll call someone else who will tell him the heart stopping price. Was I a hack at the beginning of the year? I don't know. I did not have certs or ins, but I knew the process I was using and had the utmost confidence it was built well, very well and the customer was very satisfied with the end product, said it looked better than what the "pro" did, no offense. Perhaps I'm a bit more anal about the finish than he was, don't know.

So now fast forward to my current situation, insured, certs etc and have to stick by my guns for my hourly rate. Can I get outbid by a guy with less overhead than I. You bet your keester. Will he offer the same quality that I do? I'm not real sure, that's the clients problem now cause he did'nt hire me so if it ends up looking like crap, no skin off my back you got what you paid for. Is he willing to talk/listen to you mid build about the design, make changes and make sure you are completely happy with the overall build without charging you extra? I may charge extra if it's a big change, but most minor things are no big deal, we all know that bid's are cushioned a bit.

Housekeeping on their trucks. Well, a slob is a slob I guess. Uncapped tanks floppin around in the bed of the truck, got D.O.T's number? Give em' a call. From what I understand that is illegal as heck. See it around here and wonder how they get away with it. Truck fallin apart, crap hanging off and a basic wreck. Well, comes down to pride in your equipment, maybe he just pockets all his cash and has a BMW sittin in the drive instead of a nice welding rig, who knows. Or maybe he's just a slob and his work reflects it. There's really nothing I can do about it. I ran across this as a mechanic fixing cars, someone would do it for cheaper on what I thought was reasonable price for my time, knowledge and years and years of training. Sometimes I would get the customer back and they would say, "look what he did to my car" and I'd think to myself, yep, that's a hack mechanic there. Took the guys money and now he's ticked off and wants me to fix it right.

As long as there are people that are gonna hire them, we'll have them. That's how I started though and there is nothing harder than starting a business with NO or very limited funds. I can't really agree or disagree on this subject but I know if I had to have everything before I could go build a dumpster enclosure(new or stinky old one) I could not have done it, the whole double edge sword thing. I did tell people what I was comfortable doing however. I have turned down jobs because I was unsure of my stick welding capabilities and did not want the customer/me or anyone else getting hurt, common sense, know your limitations. I figured the "pro" welders had better things to do than hang gates, build/repair dumpster enclosures and so on. Now, I guess I'm a pro, I guess, just like now I can call myself a welder. I like fixin it and fixin it right or better than right. These other folks who don't, well people have to learn that cheapest is not always the best, sometimes.....like me at the beginning of this year, maybe not the best in the world but you can see the pride in the product and thats where it counts, pride in your work no matter what it is.

So, his truck may be a turd, perhaps he's been bustin his chops for some welding outfit and finds he's not into the whole worker bee thing. All he has is this beat down ol' truck and trailer and figures he's gonna give a go at it. Don't have a clue about bidding jobs, actual operating costs(which he'll learn) and so on, but does quality work. He'll charge his $35 an hour and think he's doing great and start hearing about what others charge, find he needs this and that and realizes his OC is going through the roof and at $35 he'll starve. Second senario, he's just out to get what he can, most of his welds look like he taped a dirt dobber to the end of his 7018, don't care about insurance and other OC's but figures an idiot is born every minute and he'll take what he can. I can't group all guys(like I started) as hacks. A hack in my used to be mechanic world was a guy who would do shoddy work, cut corners and so on. I suppose this could be applied to the welding field in different terms.

I hope this makes sense, and sorry about the length. I need to get out more an talk instead of typing!!

By Billyjoe (***)

Date 12-30-2008 05:20

Johnyutah : I think you are right on have a nice welding rig and look good doing the job , But I live in a right to work state , My rig I have is a 2007 dodge crew cab ,300-D lincoln welder all rig out ,I have about $85,000.00 in my rig ,
I work my but off ,to get there , But let get to the SCAB an HACHS you talked about ,About 36 years ago ,I got my frist rig it was a 1971 ford 1 ton ,had a 66 red face on it ,leak oil like ,it was raining , they would not even let me on a slab ,I cared 50 lb of cat littler with me to keep the oil clean up , you talk about the guy that had ,that 250 tied down and his bottles just rolling around in back of his truck , that man was not a SCAB or HACK he was a man making a living for his family , some people have to start some where , and who the hell are you to cut him down , I was just like him 36 years ago , he had a dream ,and was living it, I see people everday trying to get into welding ,if they cut your wages ,that tell me , you can't do what they can do, that is make a living , I'm a pipeline welder ,I work for Ranger pipeline conts: an make a good 6 figure income ,it does not hurt me at all, to see some one trying to do it on there own,' BUT THEY HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE,
I don't do welding for Jack the farmer ,I work for the big boys,because they allways have work. I work on a lot of UNION jobs on per-mit ,the union welder think there s**t don't stink ,non - union welder weld circles around them.
you need to get you head out of your a** and move on ..

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-30-2008 16:35

So what you're really saying is you cut throats all the way to the top........

By Johnyutah (**)

Date 12-31-2008 03:10

Billyjoe Lincolns welder huh I guess that thread was targeted directly at you for that I AM NOT SORRY. Go get some tear it up when I grow up I can only hope to be like you until then I will just have to come up with what are apperently just BS reasons that my guys are laid off. As I said before I will sit on the couch and watch the bank take it away before I cut another mans throat and take away what he has earned. There is no reason to take the bottom out just to make a buck. Work for what your worth and look like you belong there. I am not a golden child and have had nothing given to me I have broke myself many times due to my thoughts on this and people always come back to quality and image. If you and the others that defend this type of work were responsible for others and there family maybe you could better understand. When I walk out and lay off one of my rig welders because I can't compete with the hacks then I am pissed you say this guy is just trying to make it and support his family it's a good thing we just do it for practice. All I want is for me and my guys to make a living and there is a certain set cost to make it in my opinion this is just cut throat. You have to charge a certain amount if your by the book we all know these costs and if your below that it's BS and if you look like a hack then guess what your a hack and if they are making money at cut rates why do they drive POS rigs. And one more thing I have learned threw the years if your ever around feel free to pull my head out of my A** one more note as my old man would say those of you you that defend this type of image and professional conduct in our trade must be lucky because you can kiss this hacks A** and he can't. Again the reason for the post was to gather your thoughts on the matter I don't mind the personal attacks but would rather discuss the pros and cons.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 01-01-2009 18:16

Amen........

By Johnyutah (**)

Date 12-07-2008 21:07

Ok I just used that guy as an example the point of the post was to gather your opinions on the matter and to know what you all consider a scab or hack. I think where better with new guys coming up through the ranks but I will never defend that type of appearance and believe me I have seen plenty of this guy and several others work. If you run around like that your only out to get a pay check you also probably have a full time job somewhere else I see most of these guys on fridays and during the weekend. And again this post is not to to argue if johnyutah is to hard on a guy for his truck you can defend them if you want or disagree with them I only want to know whats happing where you guys are it's real bad here. Also I have helped alot of guys break out and am still helping them even people on this site. And the ones who have listened to me have done great when they don't have work at least they have enough money in the bank to take the time off and spend it with there family or update there rig. We have always called them scabs sorry for the misunderstanding not starting any union fights. If a guy can't clean up his truck he most likely dosen't clean up the site when he leaves I doubt most of them even would know what a stub bucket is just throw them on the ground. And I also can't understand why some guys can't see the point of your rig is your work thats how nice your work is you built it thats the kind of work you do. You can build a cheap rig look under rig pics that gray dodge was built buy an 18 year old kid 4k for the truck 3k for the machine 2k for paint and boxes 850 for steel thats pretty cheap and again 18 years old its not that hard.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-07-2008 23:13

I agree with you Johny, appearances when you roll up onto a job can cause some questions, first impressions. I've seen some guys doing other things roll up in some real heaps and wonder????? Some have impressed me, others you tend to look back at the truck and in what order it is in then you realize why whatever it is he is doing looks like something that came out of the southbound end of a northbound mule. I drop my used rods on the ground, but have a broom and means to pick them up at the end of the job, or if its a small job just pick em' up by hand. Try to leave the job how I found it, with something new built in place.

I'd say your scab or hack would be a person of which has no pride in his work, as you said, "collecting a paycheck", no pride in his equipment, hard work is a mythical thing he's heard about, and other things. I get a little long in the tooth now and again, loose my razor, but try to wear decent work clothes. Nothing fancy of course, just burn holes in half the crap I have anyhow, you know. How they get the jobs, who knows, money talks and the word "cheap" really pops!

By stanantonio Date 12-17-2008 05:16

something on the last thing of this thread. It takes money to make money. the bigger the apperance and let me not forgett knowlege... The higher the price and also the higher the stakes. I've worked my way from a very basic rig job. To working directly with enginering companies. Do you want to build stair cases? Or do you want to go into actuall full construction. I have had a very hard time with this. Sometimes I almost thought I would have been better staying single hand. I am not a newbe nor a oldtimer but I always keep sinking money in to my corporation. I as a owner who used to buy 7 dollar work jeans now buys 30 -50 dollar work jeans depending on the enviroment. why? because professional sells. I can tell you from experience that if you show up with a p o s rig dont expect to bid a 50k plus job which is small to me. Yet at the same time I think that I could have made a smaller investment and made more if you get my drift? No I dont agree with having a piece of junk. I think you should respect the trade in which you are in. You should always show up in what is respectable. Show up in a van with a hobart and a hole cut out of the side for exhaust ventalation for small ethanol and other various jobs like amonia tank repair. I know this guy I used to work for him and then he fired me because I wasnt dumb enough... Or show up in something that you take pride in and it shows that you can do the job right. I hope this puts an end to the scab or hack thing because it dosent matter what you call it

By 63 Max

Date 12-22-2008 14:02

I stopped to eat lunch at Rosie's Diner in McClure VA about 2 months ago and saw a Ford Ranger Splash with a SA200 straped in it and he wasn't just hauling it home it was his rig truck. Needless to say I couldn't keep my mouth shut I had to ask who's truck it was and it was a young mans pipeline rig as he called it. Asked him how it drove and he says it likes to change lanes on him on it's own and he cant go over 45 mph. I said alot more to him but I will keep this clean. The real reason I'm bringing this up is because the companies that hire these guys should'nt be in buisness. With a rig (as he calls it) on the road like that he is putting my family and everyone else on the road at danger. As someone said earlier PRIDE in your Rig shows the type of worker you are. I've seen guys go mouths without washing their rigs or they wont keep their rig organized. It doesn't matter if you have a new rig or a 20 year old rig, pride is everything. I have a 99 Dodge that has 300,000 miles on it and it still looks great. It is my office and my livelyhood. I'm getting ready to buy a new rig but I know when I sell this one it will make a new welder a very dependable good looking rig to brake out with.

By stanantonio Date 12-24-2008 07:52

Max, that might have been my post. I agree with you 100%. This might make your day as to people who hire junk iron welders to do a rig welders job. I would like to name the company but I wont. They have run them selves out of plenty of business. Here in north dakota these guys came into the oil industry here which in this part everybody knows everybody. So this company has gotten every welder that had a truck and a some sort of machine and 25 ft of lead and put them to work for 30 an hr and some change. Now they dont have work up here because the do shody work. The rig welders that worked for them cant get work around here because they have been identified with that company. Even the ones that were half way decent. (not many but a few of them.)

By tazmannusa (**)

Date 12-24-2008 15:04

I dont get it, why would you feel so threatend by these other guys? from what I have seen, if they do sh#tty work over charge ext. they are gone in no time and it makes you or I look better. Are your local customers that eager to hire them? and why?
Back when the dairy construction was boomin around here it was pretty normal for guys to drive in with there welding setup, leave there # and give a price of what they charged, that was fine with me sometimes we needed the help and hired them, some were good some were not. The way I look at it they were out looking for work, I cant see a comparison to a common crook. When they give a price of what they charge do they have a clue what you are charging on that job?
Tom

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-24-2008 18:41

Rig work is different. Half the time you are working on junk, trying to make it durable. These wannabe welders KILL people. Their welds look like a goose flew over and let er rip.
The reason I am threatened by them is because I count on the loyalty of the pushers and company men that use me EVERY time they need a welder. These guys go in and cut the rate by a third. Who isn't going to try him out and see what he can do? He knows damn good and well that I count on that work, yet there he goes trying to take it from me.

People seem to think that finding work is like the opposite of an auction; whoever has the lowest bid should get the job. Us who are true pros know better than that, and so do the people who employ us. Unfortunately in this boom, there are so few who are qualified to run a drilling rig. There just aren't the hands that there used to be. The hands are younger and younger. A 20 year old toolpusher is more worried about bottom dollar and saving the company money, than getting a quality job every time. An older hand has the experience and knows that quality work will save bundles in the long run..............does that make sense?

What I am saying is that in the 8 years that I have been doing rig work, I have never once seen any of thes guys working for a little more than half the going rate ever amount to anything. More times than not, someone gets hurt because their work fails one day. These are the scabs that we refer to.

In conclusion, the fundemental reason we are threatened is that when they are through pretending to be a welder, we are still here. They get run off and go back wherever it is that they are from with a grin on their face, and we are here still in the game fixing all their junk. I don't like to fix someones junk, do you? It's the same thing as if you work next to a slouch in the shop that does half the work you do, and gets paid the same. Wouldn't that tick you off? It happens all the time, everywhere you go. This is just a bigger scale. If someone comes in and cuts my throat, and I lose a rig it hurts me bad. Being fully independant is wonderful, or horrible - never in the middle. You eat good or you don't eat. If I run 2 or 3 rigs, and we service 5 rigs, that's enough work to go around for me and the fellas I employ. If I lose 1 rig, someone aint working so much............I've said enough, this subject is like the band Rush; either you love them or you hate them.

By tazmannusa (**)

Date 12-25-2008 18:01

Yep I hear yah, Rig work must be different. Its different around here, most dont want to piss you off and treat you well just because they will need you again and want you to come back. Its nice being independent and no employees to worry about. I came close to setting up other rigs and hiring but with the rates around here and to stay competative enough to keep busy I would go in the hole.
As far as fixing others junk, never botherd me , I allways figured that was just part of the job and getting paid by hour Im getting paid for it. sometimes I get a good laugh from it just seeing some of the crap.
Tom

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 12-26-2008 23:47

A lot of the welders I have met over the last few years in the oilfield got into the business in the mid to late 90's. Things have been fair to really good since 1992 to today. Not so 1986 to 1992. Wages went from $45-50 with everything furnished to $28 and you furnish straight to $17 and the contractor furnished with a split check $7 on the arm, $10 on the rig with $25 a day sub and only on the welder. Contract work was 90 to 120 days out and a company man could cut your invoice in half. Raise a stink and you would not work for the company again. And he talked to the other oil company men and you could get blackballed.
There was 2 brothers who had pickup rigs and they would take anything that came along. They never complained about the pay or the hours. I inspected some of their work and it was poor to marginal. But they were willing to work cheap and they did what ever it took to stay in business. And that was the only work available at the time, cheap! Their rigs looked like crap because they never took any down time. I would see them on Sunday up at Sundown and Wednesday at McCamey. There were no rigs to chase. They were doing flowline, cattleguard, gunbarrel repair, and any welding the company men could come up with. But they hung in like a foot of foreskin. Today I drive by their shop. I have seen up to 15 of the shiney rigs parked there doing fab. They are a good sized oilfield service company and work for all the oil companies around here.
I am telling this because the oil industry may be going into a slump. Those $85 an hour days may not be around long. If your rig is not paid for, you have house payments and the credit cards are maxed, 4-6 months with out work could put you out of business. In 1986 I bought a SA 200, leads, torch and tools off a welder for $1000. I took the welding machine off his truck because the bank was getting ready to repossess the truck. I never saw the guy again. It was a nice rig. He sold out and the two brothers stayed.
When times get tough and you have $50 bucks are you going to get your truck washed, buy groceries or gas?
This is not in any way to disparage those guys who take pride in their welding car's. Even in the lean times you can afford to knock the dirt off every once and a while. But remember you may be putting down someone on their way up and you may be on your way down, just neither of you know it yet!
BABRT's

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 12-27-2008 01:25

Dbigkahuna

Excellent advice. Excellent evaluation.

Joe Kane

By JohnJohn (**)

Date 12-27-2008 04:10

I remember driving through the Permian Basin after the crash and seeing drilling rigs layed down for YEARS. Piles of equipment stacked in yards. I told myself I would never be dependent on the oilfield alone. I have done plenty of work a pipeliner wouldn't touch with a ten foot Golden Arm and at the going rate. It all pays the same. With the way things are looking these days, I'm glad I'm diversified. I have seen guys with fancy rigs that couldn't build a square if you gave them three sides to start with and guys with "working" rigs who could make chicken salad from chicken sh*t. Point is, not everyone can afford to be fancy and you can't always judge a book by it's cover. There are several guys who chase rigs around here that have nice clean rigs and they are the biggest hacks you ever saw, getting top dollar. Two years ago they didn't which end of the rod to put in a stinger. I agree you with Big K, that someone may be on the way up. BTW I'll be driving across the Permian Basin tomorrow, headed to NM. Hope all is well.

JohnJohn

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-27-2008 20:52

I didn't say judge a book by it's cover, I said judge a hack by his sorry work...................

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-29-2008 13:47

It's funny but odd. Over on another site I go to one guy was inquiring about hauling something back from a place using his personal truck so he could make extra money. Most of the guys on there(hotshots) started telling about insurance, dot #'s, commercial etc. Guy got a bit of attitude because we were telling him what could happen if pulled over by dot and so on. Our words must have been in invisible ink cause he did it anyhow and got on there bragging about how he hauled this whatever to where ever. Seems to be in every industry, I know a contractor that is neither licensed,insured,bonded...no workers comp. What can you do? Hope they get caught, screw something up that kills someone? I'd hate to see someone hurt because in their mind they think they can but can't. I suppose that's why they have welding "tests". So you can prove you can do it. I told a young kid you can weld filet welds all day, tacking little things together and making stuff, you may call yourself a welder, but until you bevel those plates and run a 3g you don't know, it's just different. Said I could weld before, never a "welder" until I passed my 3g, now I'm a 50% welder. January 5th gonna knock our my 4g unlimited then hopefully I'll be a complete welder!

By Superflux (****)

Date 12-30-2008 08:22

Johnyutah,
Just wanted to congratulate you on initiating an extremely prolific and spirited thread! I have fallen under many of the pros and cons presented here. True, your Rig is your resume, and neither being the Hack/Scab or the Golden Arm is your ticket to prosperity. All things gravitate to equilibrium (fancy way of saying Karma)!
As my late father used to tell me, "Don't worry about what the other guy is (or who he is) doing. Just be the the best you can (now that's a loaded statement!) at what you do, have fun doing it. The money will follow. You'll do fine son...."

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 12-31-2008 04:58

I don't know how it works for You pipe welders, but I know My Dad put well over $100,000 in the bank that He didn't spend on late model flashy trucks in the 58 years He worked as a custom carpenter. His reputation had nothing to do with the truck, He was the senior lead man in the company for decades. The often rather ugly truck had its own reputation for having any tool anybody ever needed in it. The last one had a red cab and green utility body from a previous truck.

Dad passed in '04 at 76 years old and 58 years of service with the company and no pension. Mom lives off the money they saved by not blowing it on non-essentials.

I do not condone unsafe practices such as unsecured bottles and machines that can shift, but if a guy wants to rig out for $15K instead of $85K, that is His business, as is what He does with the other $70K.

I don't see how anybody who continually does sub standard work can keep getting jobs in the same area, from the same people. Those who "Fly By Night" fly often.

By Northweldor (***)

Date 01-02-2009 15:13

Amen!