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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / pipe weld problem
- - By scooby (*) Date 01-03-2009 04:28
hi guys this is my problem kind of stunned. I was working on a closure for one of our tanks it 20 inch pipe 1 inch thick to a threaded closure same thickness. now prior to geting it the pipe was contoured to fit the vessel without the closure being welded to it when i set the closure on the pipe was badly warped and alot of mismatch we were using 1/8 root mig root pass no postweld heat specs. the only thing we were instructed to do was briefly pre heat to sweat out moisture. now due to the mis match i was told to backweld the root and grind into the top side and cover again with mig. wire wheel and then change over to flux core and finish. so i did wfter it came out of x ray it had  a line right through the center. I dont think its the root because i did a dye check after i ground it and nothing showed. could it be that pass of mig i put on after i ground it. i thought personally i would have a preheat specs but no. never saw anything that looked like a problem either no porosity worms or anything . can anyone shed some light on what you think might of happened  never had this happen before. just in case i used 75-25 sheilding gas .035 solid wire for root wire speed 300 ,amps were 175. fluxcore spec 75-25 30 for gas on both.045 7100 ultra fluxcore wire 350 for wire 240 amps all carbon steel. thanks
scott
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 01-03-2009 23:15
If I'm understanding the joint configuration correctly from your description, its not a complete joint penetration weld. I understand that you only notched the outside of the closure, then welded. Is this correct? If that's correct, radiography is always going to show a black line where the unwelded portion of the base metal is, doesn't matter what kind of process you use. You would need to gouge all the way through to your reinforced root to have a joint that could be properly x-rayed. If its not a complete penetration joint somebody specified the wrong inspection technique. MT or PT should suffice.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-04-2009 23:41
Fellow members of the Forum, I apologize, but I just can't help myself!

Hey Scooby, what do you mean by "........ we were instructed to do was briefly pre heat to sweat out moisture."?

Is someone telling you there is moisture in the steel?

Where is the moisture coming from that it requires to be "sweated out?" I gots to know! This might be something to add to the edition of the FC!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-05-2009 04:00
    Great point Al, not all farmers know that steel soaks up water, and that a flame brings it to the surface where it eventuall gets dried up. Then You can weld on it. :-)
    I just had this discussion on New Years Day with a blacksmithing friend. He did concede that some of the water came from the flame, but still believes that the rest came out of the steel.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 05:11
It isn't only welders that have heard the "wife's tale" and bought it hook, line, and sinker. I've had "inspectors" as well as engineers repeat it when I asked the question in each of my courses. The light usually goes on after I remind them of Freshman Chemistry 101 and mention "the by-products of combustion". Still, it can be unnerving to think that these  individuals haven't taken a second or two to think about what is being said and what is reality. Sometimes there is a disconnect between what we learn in school and what we see with our own eyes.

"If steel, nickel, aluminum, and other metals were porous, submarines would only submerge once and beer cans would leak!" is my usual response when people say the moisture that forms on cold steel when the preheat flame first plays against it is moisture driven from the pores. "Hogwarts!"

When I was taking a Physics course in college not that long ago, we had to calculate the heat content (in BTUs) of natural gas. We had a boiler fired by a Bunsen burner as the heat source. We measure the volume and temperature of the water going in and out once a steady state was reached. We also measure the volume of gas being burned. The professor had us place a small bowl under the burner. No one knew exactly why, but we did it. Once the flame was ignited, the bowl started to collect water. Several of the physics majors (this was a senior level course) informed the professor that the boilers were leaking and they needed different boilers.

The professor laughed and said to me, "Al, explain to these geniuses where the water is coming from!" He usually referred to me as his "little ignorant welder" in jest (I hope).

I responded that it was the by-product of combustion. He said, "Absolutely right. How can my little welder, who doesn't know enough to come in from the winter cold, come into this class and explain what you people have been studying for the last four years?"

Maybe as a welder I was able to see the relationships between what we studied in class and what I saw happening on the job site. I've always said that to be a successful welder you had to be observant and learn something new from every job you do. You can learn by attending the "school of hard knocks" or learn to read books and learn from other people's experience. Both ways will teach you what you need to know, but learning by reading is by far a much faster way to learn. I was a slow learner. It took me many years to get the education most engineers obtained in four years of college.

So trust me, I'm hold welders in high regard. However, to excel, you have to have an open mind that searches for the real reason things happen as they do. I'm delighted to see so many people come to the forum and participate, but I can't resist the urge once in a while to have a little good natured fun with the person asking the question. Again my apologies, no harm intended.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By scooby (*) Date 01-08-2009 02:23
hello all thanks for the responses and laugh . just to clarify the closure to pipe was an open root 30 degree bevel on end of closure and pipe.  this is how it went down these closures should of been welded to the pipe before the pipe got contoured and they didnt so when i got the parts the pipe was way out of round and didnt match up to the closures at all they were machined to match the pipe. so when i put them together  i had mismatch  anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 because the pipe was out of round. It was our inhouse inspector that told me to run a rose bud over them in the morning  to warm them up so i did not questioning him figuring there is good reason behind it. so when i finally asked him his response was it would help with cracking issues. OK so here is what i ended up doing per his request gouged out the root to see id anything would show and guess what it didnt big waste of time sent it back to x ray and it was still there so i filled it back in and started grinding from the top side and about 1/4 down i found  flux my own fault put it back in xray and line was gone. i been welding for about 10 yrs but only been doing vessel work for 2 i actually enjoy it and learn something new all the time but my down fall is that i trust these guys sometimes even when it sounds a little fishy  figuring they done this for years from now on i will still listen but if it dont sound right im gonna go with my own instincts. thanks alot
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-08-2009 14:27
One of the major drawbacks of X-Ray is that it can not tell depth.
Parent - - By mastermetal (*) Date 01-11-2009 17:58 Edited 01-11-2009 18:05
I work at a code vessel shop. Bye no means an expert and am enjoying learning new things every day. We had this same exact issue, closure to pipe vessel mismatch. Welder wouldnt weld it said the mismatch would cast a shadow on the xray no matter how good the weld is. one of the things we do to prevent heat affected mismatch is to fit all the fittings back weld them but dont weld the ones within 12" of the closure, head - vessel joint on the outside until the head-vessel joint is welded, hope that makes sense . We also will get the ole portapower out and try to align things but have ruined some potapowers that way LOL Again no expert, hope this helps.
Parent - By scooby (*) Date 01-12-2009 02:04
here ya we ruined a portapower on the last one but it worked it all boils down to they shouldnt of pre cut the steel for the closure they new better but it happens  learn from my mistake and move on thanks again for the input
Parent - By Johnyutah (**) Date 01-12-2009 03:25
This is great there are so many guys that think the moisture comes from the steel it's self. In cold weather I tell guys to heat until the sweat is back 6" and sure enough the next question is how did the steel get water in it. I once told a guy the pipe we were working on was porous you guessed it waterline the cwi got a kick out of that one the guy never caught on sorry for the off comment.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / pipe weld problem

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