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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / preheat? help please!
- - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-03-2009 04:15
hey guys just a quick question. do you have to preheat 80 s pipe? i think it has chrome in it. if so what would be a good temp for 1 inch thick 23 inch dia?
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-03-2009 09:36 Edited 01-03-2009 10:32
You think it has chrome in it....!!?
May I ask how you will determine your filler material, and which WPS you will apply to?

In order to get a good and correct answer, you need to know exactly what kind of material you are dealing with.

3.2

23 inch dia.?
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-03-2009 17:53
3.2's question (23 inches diameter?) is justified.
If the pipe is 24 inches O.D. and the wall thickness is one inch, then the I.D would be 22 inches.
If 23 inches is the I.D. and the wall thickness is one inch, then the O.D. would be 25 inches. There's no 25 inches O.D. pipe in American standards.
If the pipe was made to ISO standards, then the dimensions are given in millimeters, not inches.
What's exactly the case?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
 
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-03-2009 17:53
I would have to join 3.2 with some curiosity.  Why do you "think" it has chrome?  On the other hand, it doesn't really matter why you think it does, the only way to know is to either test the material or get the MTR (material test report) on the pipe to find out if it does.

At that point you can find your required preheat in D1.1 checking materials, thicknesses, welding process and fillers, and ambient temperature.  You may need to find your carbon equivalent for your material, but probably not unless it is really special material.

3.2, if you check this,  when I worked at a pipe manufacturing plant many years ago, we formed pipe to whatever size a customer requested.  Customized pipe sizes so to speak.  You can get anything if it is called for by the engineers and needed per specs and paid for by the customer.  Granted, it won't show up in your steel supply books.

Hope everyone is set for a fabulous new year, Have a Great Day, Brent
Parent - - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-03-2009 18:13
wow you guys are serious huh? i was curious because some welding engineer has us welding this pipe at 600 degree preheat and its burning all of us up! just wnated to know if it had to be done this way? sorry for the up roar. the wps is wrote by him and im not sure if he knows whats going on.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-03-2009 18:27
Yes we are serious, we owe it to you as topic starter and we owe it our "trade"

600F seem a little high, for some Cr. alloys it would even be above recommended interpass temp.
It seems the welding engineer is not the only one, not knowing what he is doing.
You as the welder need to know the composition of the material you are welding, what kind of filler do you use?

3.2
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-03-2009 19:08
Steven,

Again I must join in with 3.2.  600 seems more than required or needed.

I used D1.1 as my earlier basis but we do not know from you which code you are working to.  That would help with more adequate answers.

To me, bottom line still is, can you get MTR to know exactly what the material is?  Once again though, it doesn't really matter if a welding engineer has called it out.  Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to weld and get all burned up doing our job as speced out by some pencil pusher.

Have a Great (Hot) Day,  Brent
Parent - - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-03-2009 19:46
i agree i dont know what im talking about thats why i wanted advice from you guys not to be talked down on like im some idiot. i tink its great that you guys take your jobs so serious! i take mine as a welder very serious allso! this is the first time ive done anything besides regular 70 s mild steel and excuse me if im not right with the numbers and stuff. im trying to learn but i learn from the poeple i ask advice form and the guys im working with. ive never had to work with stuff that had to be preheated thats why i asked the question. the only reason i said it may have chrome in it is because the old timers im working with said it does. i was just wanting a proffesinal opinion on it sorry to have gotten everybody all bent out of shape.
Parent - By jarcher (**) Date 01-03-2009 22:52
Steven, I hope you don't think anyone is talking down to you, I just don't see it in the thread. They are obviously asking about technical details that push the boundaries of your technical experience, but they are absolutely correct - if the chemical composition of the pipe is unknown, its pretty nearly impossible to say what preheat might be required. The mission of the AWS is to advance the science of welding and these forums generally reflect that. I have seen a few rude answers and uncalled for personal comments in the past, but they are not very common. On the contrary, I think about 99% of the posting in the various forums is people trying to help one another to the best of their individual abilities, and you will find that a lot of the people here have a great deal of expertise in various areas of welding.

Now if you are talking about API 5L-X80 SMLS the only chemistry requirement is P 0.045 ~ 0.085 believe it or not (Surprised me), for welded pipe (the one with the subarc seam down the length, the chemical requirements are 0.18 C max, 0.030 P max, 0.018 S max. No chrome is specified.

For this type of pipe, at 70 degrees ambient, in the thickness you indicated, no preheat should be required. I know we have some pipeliners in the audience, so feel free to correct if necessary. 600 degrees seems detrimental to me to notch toughness, so if some one was asking me, I would recommend against it.

There are other specifications of pipe, P5, P11, P15, etc. that do have a chrome content. They require both preheat in the range of 300-400 degrees and frequently a post weld stress relief. See if you can find out what the specification and grade of the pipe you are welding is - very often its marked right on the pipe. If not the welding foreman should know.

Finally, and I hope you see this is as advice rather than talking down to you, it's fine for a welder to question a procedure, that shows his brain is engaged, but its not good for a welder to blow off some portion of a procedure because its just all wrong or inconvenient in his opinion. Remember that the procedure was qualified taking into account a lot of variables we haven't even  touched on here. Acceptable mechanical results were obtained with the procedure parameters. If the welder changes those parameters will the results still be acceptable? Nobody truly knows without running another procedure qualification incorporating the welder's parameters. And all that doesn't even address that the customer has to approve procedures (usually), which is sometimes a very involved process, absorbing a lot of time and money.

Bear in mind that being young and inexperienced in the technical issues of welding is not a negative. It's an opportunity. There are lots of sources of materials to widen your knowledge if you desire, to the point that you're the guy writing the procedures (and getting it right), or the guy writing the inspection procedures.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-03-2009 23:16
Steven,

Back up, breathe in, breathe out, relax, don't get your back up.  We are trying to be helpful.  3.2 may have been a little sharp with his comment, but I feel it is more than a little accurate. I for one am not "bent out of shape" and do not believe 3.2 is either.

Are you really wanting to learn, or looking for fast, simple answers on the back of the experience and knowledge of others?  True learners don't get easily offended even when the truth hurts.

We do not think you are an "idiot" and I did not feel we were talking "down" to you.  I am a certified welder before all else. Have been for over 35 years.  I am a business owner second. Have been twice, this time for 12 years in the same shop.  I am next a CWI. Short time and still learning lots.  We all need to be continually learning to improve ourselves as well as our profession.  And yes, I do take my profession as well as my job very seriously.

Now, as to your question, which we are trying to deal with.  There are many codes for welding.  We do need to know which one you are dealing with in order to give you the best information.  It does show a lack of knowledge when you don't know which code you are being expected to work to.  Do you even know if you are certified to the proper code for the job?  This would be lesson one. Find out if you don't know.

Lesson two: Do you know what an MTR (Material Test Report) is? Important information for both code application and WPS application (Welding Procedure Specification).  The MTR would tell you all the chemical breakdown of the material being used. Get a copy of it if possible, at least a look at it.

Lesson three: all steels can require pre-heat at some point.  Depends upon grade, thickness, ambient temperatures, welding process to be used, filler specs, and code to be welded to.  That is why all the previous info is needed.  Then the correct charts can be used to find the correct pre-heat, interpass, and post heat temperatures to be used.

Most here are willing and able to be of great assistance.  At the same time we like to see people asking questions in a way that indicates they are willing to learn and are trying to do the job themselves.

So, let's try again, begin with the breathing, relax, learn, apply.  Code worked to, steel used. Find out these things and we may be able to help you learn to help yourself.  Will make you more valuable to yourself, your employer, and others down the road.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-04-2009 03:26
Okay, first off guys i would like to extend my deepest apologies. I'm sorry i got like that when y'all were just trying to help. I will be the first to admit that i did not have the information for you to answer the question. Bottom line I'm on a job that the weld engineer just came from an assembly line and i think he just worked with robot spot welders and hes out here trying to run a pipe shop now. I don't like to question people that are engineers or cwi's but in this case i just think that its not right the way we are having to run this job. I do know that its p5. I heard someone say that. Bottom line i don't feel like I'm on a job were the people around me know what they are doing and that sucks! I was sent down there to run tig root and hot pass and they sub arc it the rest of the way out. Its really a mess! The hole company is new to tig. The engineer isn't familiar with it nor anyone else around there. Sorry for rambling just wanted to kin of let you know were I'm at. I will find out the information you gentlemen  need and maybe if you are still willing to help me you still will. Once again I'm sorry about all this! Thanks so much for all your help!
                                                                            Thanks, Steven.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-04-2009 09:08
Steven,

Well, since english is not my first languae my posts sometimes get misunderstood....But I am trying to help where I can.

You mention that the material is P5, please be aware that such material usually requires gas to be purged on the root in order to prevent oxidation/sugaring.
P5 also require PWHT after welding (before final NDT is performed)

How do you maintain your preheat temperature during welding? And do you meassure it correct?
Are the SMAW electrodes of the "low hydrogen" type? And are they stored correctly?

As you might understand, there are a few simple - but important things to take into consideration when welding such alloys.

I strongly recommend that you guys contact a competent guy, and let him review your PQR/WPS/welders certs, etc...
I might cost some money now, but imagine the client rejecting the work later due to lack of procedures and a general lack of engineering and "craftmanship"

The code of construction you are working to is also important, and if the client has aditional specifications with more stringent requirements. (they usually do)

As you see, its not that easy to answer a question without knowing ALL the facts.

Happy welding :)

3.2
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 14:15
3.2,
  I hope this will still be in line with Steven's concerns. I am wondering about "PWHT after welding (before final NDT is performed)". I will admit that I do not have much experiance with PWHT and only to D1.1 when I did this we were building armor plateing and not pipe. When I started the job they would weld the assymbly, then PWHT, then bring to me for inspection. There were almost always repairs to be made. I would mark it up for repair, they would repair, then PWHT again. Now this is where it gets wierd for me. They would almost always miss part of the repair or not repair it correctly, resulting in more rework, and PWHT again. There were daily occurances of PWHT an assymbly 4 times. I stopped this by making them bring me the assymbly before PWHT, then right back to me after repairs, resulting in PWHT 1 time rather than 4 times.

Did I miss something? Or is this something that differs from structural to pipe?

Hopefully this information will benifit Steven as well as myself and is not to far off topic.

jrw159 :-)
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-05-2009 14:39
jrw159 :)

It is in my opinion always a good idea to perform NDT before PWHT, however for certain materials (suceptible to reheat cracking) the final NDT must be performed after the PWHT. To my knowledge, most codes specify that.

IIRC ASME sec. 9 has time at temp. as an ess. variable, which would require aditional procedures in case of defects discovered by NDT after the PWHT was performed.

3.2 :)
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 15:33
3.2,
  Thanks for that information. Sounds like in the case I mentioned I probably made the right decision, but it would not be the correct decision for all cases.

jrw159 :-)
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 01-04-2009 14:43
OK then most likely its A335 grade P5 then. Chemistry is 0.15 C max, 0.30 - 0.60 Mn, 0.50 Si max, 0.030 max P, 0.030 max S, 4 - 6 Cr, 0.045 - 0.065 Mo. The preheat-interpass minimum in the reference I am looking at is 250C to 350C/482F to 662F. So 600F is a pretty good preheat figure for this material, the preheat could have been set 100F lower, but then you, as a welder would have to be checking your preheat much more frequently instead of welding. You should check frequently on the TIG root, probably a lot less once subarc starts, although with 5/64 wire, you will still need to keep your eye on it. If you are running 3/32, your probably good to the finish once you hit 400 amps, especially if the air flow through the pipe is still blocked. Hey, and yeah man, TIGing on a 600 degree part is a *****, been there, done that LOL.
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 01-04-2009 17:46
BTW, as a welder, you have every reason, and under a lot of contracts, the right to see the WPS. All the relevant data *should* be on the WPS. If its not, by all means point it out to someone involved. WPS's are just a recipe for satisfactory welds and you're the cook, so don't be afraid to ask to see it if you're not sure about what about what to do, or are unsure that the verbal instructions you received are correct. While you are welding, you're the guy responsible for following it. I just ran into a case the other day of welders violating the parameters of a procedure. They were using weaves in vertical instead of the stringer beads the WPS specifies. As it was, I NCR'd it and engineering directed that they gouge out the weld down to the hot pass and reweld it correctly (mild steel, no impacts required). The owner was away on vacation or I would have, for a willful WPS violation, used a procedure we have in place called red tagging. If I throw a red tag, then all work on a job stops completely until the tag is removed, and the only person that can remove the tag is the owner of the business. So the welders get the opportunity to personally explain to him exactly why they thought it was a good idea to do things their way instead of following the WPS. As you can imagine this generally makes a strong impression on all the welders in the shop and noncompliance with the WPS fades away for a while.
Parent - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-05-2009 00:40
sorry, maybe its phasor ray?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-04-2009 15:31
Steven, apology accepted and appreciated.

3.2 and jarcher sound like they are more in tune with what you are working on than I.  I am more of a structural and equipment guy.  I have worked pipe and pressure vessels but they are not my best area of expertise.  They are taking you in the right direction though.  See what else you can find on the job to help them guide you through this.

Any welding with that high a pre-heat is going to be miserable and especially TIG.  I agree with jarcher that the temp was probablly chosen toward the high end so as to minimize checking and reheating. 

Good luck and Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-04-2009 22:35
Okay we are using induction heating and the machine keeps it at the temprature we need it and I constantly check with a temp stick. What do I do when seriously I'm the only one that's concerned? The other guys don't seem to care and the engineer won't listen to any kind of suggestions or concerns. I actually said we needed to purge and they all said no you don't have to purge p5. It's a mess! The problem they are having is about 3 weeks after the weld has been made they say it's cracking. After we weld it they mag it, manual ut it, then they phase to ray it. I think that's what it's called. All I know is that you can look at a weld in allot more angles than with x-ray. Anyways sorry I got off subject. Then after they heat treat it up to like 1200 degrees and leave it that hot for a while and bake it, they do the tests all over again. Anybody heard of something like this? Once again thanks allot guys!

[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/eu0w7l.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/2qib3fs.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/1z2ln2u.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/34sngwi.jpg[/IMG]
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 17:17
The photographs are good. They are using heating coils to preheat and maintain the preheat temperature, which as we discussed is high and uncomfortable to live with.

You might try to cover the coils with insulating blankets to keep the heat "in" and to make your life easier. It will insulate you from the majority of the heat and it will reduce the cooling rate when the power is shut down to the coils.

Purging will improve your opportunity to get good fusion without oxidation with the root bead. Purge dams will reduce the volume of argon needed to purge the root and it will prevent a "chimney effect" where the heated air from the welding operation rises to the highest outlet and draws colder air into the area of the weld. This effect can be eliminated by the purge dams or by stuffing or blocking one end of the pipe (the lowest end).

It is essential to maintain the preheat during welding. Any cycling (up or down) of the preheat should be slow. Post weld heat treatment should be performed in accordance with the engineer's direction. There are different types of PWHT depending on the metallurgical properties required. I would have to believe the engineer in charge has done his homework and consulted with a metallurgist if he is unsure of himself. It appears the proper equipment is being used, so it is important that proper procedures be followed by everyone.

I use a pretty effective control program when I run the project. You do what I tell you to do or I hand you your last paycheck. That is a condition of my involvement or I don't manage the project. Once in a while a welder or inspector challenges me and he will tell you I'm the sorriest SOB in the state as he walks out to his car with paycheck in hand.

The phased array UT is a good method for finding discontinuities provided the technician is well trained and experienced. It can be more sensitive than X-ray if it is done properly. That is a big "IF". As is the case with welders, engineers, or inspectors, there are great UT techs, some aren't as good, and a few simple have no clue as to what they are doing. It important to make sure you have the best to ensure the results are valid. X-ray has limited sensitivity, the results are easier to interpret, but even they have little value if the technician doesn't do his job correctly.

The problems you list sounds like the welds may be excessively hard and the weld is failing once it is subjected to service conditions where vibrations may contribute to cracking problems. There is also a possibility to low cycle fatigue if the system is subjected to severe thermal cycling in service. I doubt diffusible hydrogen is the culprit for the reasons I give in the following paragraph.

One thing that can be done is to check the hardness of the weld and HAZ before and after post weld heat treatment. This will ensure the PWHT was done properly and the weld or HAZ is not too hard. The PWHT should allow any excess diffusible hydrogen to escape if the temperature is maintained above 500 degrees F for several hours. The preheat temperature you listed (600) should be adequate to allow the hydrogen to diffuse without causing delayed cracking if it is properly maintained once welding has stopped for the day.

Unfortunately, you as a welder, probably have little to say that will influence the "powers to be". It is unfortunate that management sometimes fails to appreciate what welders have to offer.

Keep us up dated.

Best regards - Al 
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 18:00
First of all, what kind of cracks?
Where?
Delayed cracks of 3 weeks or so usually indicates a H2 problem. Though Al may be onto something with fatigue. The cracks should tell us which.
Also, run stringers throughout with that stuff. No weaves. Keep heat input down.
The pipe looks big so the joint is under constraint.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-05-2009 18:40
I hear you loud and clear on the stringer adwise....But I have a question :)

When is it advisable to weave? (to minimize notches between stringers and to assure normalizing of the subsequent passes)
Is that only when you have pipes operating in the creep range, or when the material is martensitic?

3.2
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-06-2009 19:34
I'm not sure I would ever characterize as advisable to weave. More like acceptable to weave. I've never bought into much of the stuff I've read about the advantages of weaves, other than for production sake. I know there's literature, but it all seems just a little too 'laboratory' dependent, and not enough shop floor applicable to me. Much of the literature I've read would require automatics to accomplish. Or at the very least testing regimes on a par with temper bead qualifications.
I hope this addressed your question.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-06-2009 19:47
It did, but leaves me with what soon will turn into grey hair :)

3.2
Parent - - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 01-08-2009 14:16
js55,
Just a quick comment regarding your statement about the advantages of weaves, "other than for production sake".  Weaving has little or nothing to do with how quickly a required weld can be completed.  Given a fixed weld joint and the same welding process/parameters, whether the weld is completed using stringer or weave beads has nothing to do with the time required to complete the weld, with the exception of a bit of time lost while cleaning between passes.  The only thing that effects the "production rate" is the amount of weld deposited, per unit of time, also known as deposition rate.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 01-08-2009 14:28
Fredspoppy,
You're right. The difference is minimal. Generally I run weaves (or ran weaves when my eyes were better-I hate cheaters)with a little more amps which translates into dep rate. And the welder doesn't have to change position as much when weaving, and can more often use an electrode, if stick welding, to its full length (of course the good ones will do that anyway). Filling the bottom of a groove as opposed to welding to the top and then crouching back down again can be a little faster. But I would agree the difference is quite small.
Then again, full weaves can allow more 'butt on the bucket' time. So maybe its a wash. :)
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 01-08-2009 14:45
That "bit of time lost cleaning between passes", adds up over a period of time with a number of welders. I put a stopwatch on just about everything involved in my work, and when you can whittle a small amount here, and a small amount there, you've made real progress on making the welds more efficiently.

I really disagree with "the only thing that effects production rate is the amount of weld deposited per unit of time", but, I spend more time than most people on ways to make more welds per week, probably too much. But everybody has to have a hobby ; )

JTMcC.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 01-06-2009 19:49
Its advisable to weave if its stated on the WPS to do so, It should also state how much weave is allowed(Considering it is allowed)
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 01-06-2009 19:52
Indeed, indeed.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-06-2009 20:15
If its on the WPS its not advisable, its required. And if the WPS is requiring weaves I would hope that the engineer thought to clarify the dimensions of the weave since under AWS A3.0 the difference between weave and stringer hinges upon someones interpretaiton of the word 'appreciable'.
How do you police 'appreciable'?
Just thought I'd ask.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-06-2009 20:34
Guess I should have worded it better, Thanks js55
Parent - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 01-05-2009 18:28
Thank all of you for the help you have offered so far! I will get answers to your questions so you can keep the great info coming! This kind of thing really intrest me and at the same time i may be able to help with this problem with all of your help. Thanks again!
Parent - - By steven clark 2 (*) Date 02-02-2009 00:38
Hey all. Well I'm back from Houston and I asked the engineer what the material is and he just said 4130 maybe you guys will know more about this than he did.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-02-2009 04:58
Do a quick search for 4130. Use the search function on th menu line.

There has been several threads on the subject of preheating 4130/4140, etc.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / preheat? help please!

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