Let me first apologize as this may be long in order to explain.
There is a guy, kinda skeptical on doing work for him for the simple fact that he has already screwed me once, but times are hard. At first he wanted aluminum awnings, priced that out and now two months later they are wanting steel awnings...as cheap as possible made from 6" channel weighing in at 8.21lbs per foot.
The building, it is all block, older building. The block where they want the awnings attached is upright and over what used to be a garage door. It has been speculated that it is either solid block or reinforced because it is a two story building.....but nobody is for sure, they are assuming(hmmm).
The awnings, instead of 4 individual awnings over each window now they want 1 single awning over a 29 foot span, I figured it out for a 28ft span and came up with 656lbs. The awning, 29' long by 3' wide with 8 cross braces(including the end caps). They said cables from the building to the front of the awning was approved by the owner for support, an issue I have raised many times with them as they have just wanted it anchored(with redheads from home depot) to the block without cable supports.
So, I figure out the new cost of materials, figuring in chemical anchors from Hilti(thanks to Hilti for the info). I get out on the job to measure the doors in order get them exact numbers. When I arrive the "super" tells me they changed it a bit. Now, instead of 6" they want to go with 12" channel!!!! Holy Cow!!! You have any idea on how heavy that will be????? Well we can make it out of lighter material, say aluminum but we have to keep the cost down. I told them 25' of 12 inch aluminum channel is gonna run $600 each and if inexpensive is the major factor that is not an option.
We go inside and talk to the designer, they give me a blueprint from a job they did before. In had an unknown size channel(not listed on blueprint) flush against the wall and then had a 4' piece of C5x6.7S channel. It was a side view and did not list width of this awning. This one was capped with 5/8 plywood and had the same on the face. He mentioned a cantilever design. It was attached with 3/4" x 2" chemical anchors to the face of the building, quantity unknown but I did see they had one at the top of the channel and one at the bottom.
I was told that they wanted mitre cut corners, the channel that attaches to the building would be flipped so the legs contact the face of the building because they want to run conduit behind it for lighting. They then said price out the 12" channel and I was told that they could get the engineer to sign off on it. I thought, ok, at least the engineer is involved(involved enough???). I talk to my steel guy, who I consider a very close business relation/friend. I said 12" channel, what are my weight options and he said, "I can sell you whatever you want, but I can't tell you what to use and the engineer needs to spec out the material, without that I'd be leary". I know there are many many options on channel and how it is designated(still learning what it means though). So, with that tidbit of knowledge and already letting it be known to several people involved in this that I did not want to "test" my insurance. I spoke with the teacher at school(doing my api test) and he had that look of Hmmmm?? Then I talked to my Uncle, 30+ year welding vet and he said, "hell no, your certified now", to which I replied, "and I'm supposed to know better now", and he said, "exactly".
My dilemma, so, do I talk to the design guy and tell him I need full blueprints designed/approved by the engineer regarding what it is you actually want, lengths, channel weight specs, anchoring specs and all or do I just back away slowly watching for falling debris and get away from these people?? The jobs that are done around here seldom have permits pulled, secretive black ops kinda stuff and being fully insured and certified I don't feel comfortable, because I'm supposed to know better and I don't want a black eye on my company. If I do get full blueprints and they don't want to pull permits do I still continue with the job?? I'm new to this construction code/permit thing(but all my handrail meet OSHA/County codes) but if the codes guy comes by and sees me out there doing these awnings....and I know better.....it's my buttocks.
I guess if they did the blueprints it would be my responcibility to go to codes and submit the plans, costs and pull permits?? That cost would be figured into the bid obviously.
So, what do you all think?? Run Forest Run!!!
Shawn
Your last paragraph says it all. It's your butt and you know exactly what to do. The hassle of clearing your good reputation will require far, far more time than finding a better job than this.
Bob Garner
Shawn
You need signed and sealed drawings and they need a building permit. Without signed and sealed drawings you could be committing a crime. Run-Shawn! Run!
Joe Kane
Ditto what Joe and Bob said.
From what you described, those folks have no idea as to what they want. You will never be able to make them happy and if anything fails - well, that's what they are trying to hire you for.
Thanks guys, I kinda figured I was thinking the "proper" way and when my Uncle said...."f" bomb them. Told my wife this is my "comfort community" and with all that I have to be legal I don't want to be doing the black op missions. When times get tough though you start looking but I have my morals and reputation to maintain.
"You're certified now" so you're "supposed to know better", i have to ask, what certification are you talking about there?
JTMcC.
AWS D1.1 papers/procedures for the business. Kinda like being an ASE certified mechanic working on big trucks and the cheap company telling you to wash the the brake shoes on a class 8 truck in solvent after a wheel seal failure. It's a big NO NO to wash them because the oil gets into the pores of the brake material and you are supposed to replace them, especially if your hauling 80,000lbs. I'm not talking a little bit of oil, I'm talking dripping. Same things would apply, trucker can't stop and kills mom and her kids they'll come back to me and anything I say is heresay. I go to jail for manslaughter cheap company guy goes home.
Passing a welding test really only means you deposited sound weld metal on a particular day.
I think it's a stretch to think passing that test gives one any relevent info to make decisions about sound design, permit requirements, engineered drawings, flakey contractors, ect.
Two completely different topics there.
JTMcC.
Cummins, The channel you want to use is a MC12x10.6 but if you turn the "toes" towards the building you will need pipe sleeves at the holes to prevent deflection when you tighten your anchors. Also as JTMc says your "papers" are for weld knowledge only. Any work can be designed by you,customer,or your detailer BUT after approval from the customer your details have to be "stamped" by an engineer, this is the only way to operate. REMEMBER there are no short cuts and it is time consumming. I have a job right now for three awnings that at bid time was very vage on the drawings(1/08). We started detail drawings (7/08). Final detail drawings (1/2/09) Erection this week (avg. temp. 12*). Gotta love this work or it WILL drive you insane. Keep plugging away ,"sale" the job,take your time and think of all your costs, keep a tight "leash" on the customer,and good luck. PS. GO STEELERS AND PENS. Also REMEMBER be very "selective" about who you work for ,MOST contractors I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw.
I'd make the engineer make a set of prints with the dimensions and materials. If his stamp is on it, it's his a$$ on the line as long as you follow the drawings to the T, which I'm sure you would.
JTMcC,
They have not provided a "sound design" for me to say that I don't think it will work. They've told me to use this size channel and the rest is left up to me, which I'm not qualified to do. I know it will need permits pulled as I have talked to an independent engineeer about this issue, he was very helpful and due to the design said that codes would want prints and permits would have to be pulled. I do talk to a LOT of people because I want things done right.
That's why I'm saying "Im not an engineer" and they need to provide prints due to the weight, size of this overhang they want and I am not qualified to design/engineer what they are wanting but they keep pushing and dropping little hints about what they would like me to come up with, which in turn makes me uneasy because I am not qualified to design/engineer just qualified to weld it. I never stated that I was certified to design/engineer this thing, just that I can weld it with confidence, proven by x-ray and proud of it. I also have no problem depositing sound metal any day of the week. I can go in tonight and burn out some plates 3g, 4g and feel confident they will pass. Just like my mig, I've got the tests and the time under the hood to have confidence, no nerves about doing it anymore, not afraid I'm gonna bust the test, just another piece of steel. Like my Uncle said, if passing the tests were easy everybody would be welding. As far as shady goes......I've been around this crew enough to know and it's not just speculation. I feel, the more I think about it, that they are pushing for me to do it for the free design work so it comes out cheap, I know what I'm comfortable making but there are to many "should work", "should be ok" kinda stuff coming from them, which makes me think, what about the poor sap walking under these things if they come down? Probably be the mail man or the UPS guy, some guy killing himself to make a living.
Thanks tighand, that's what I'm gonna tell them today, prints/stamp/permits or loose my number.
Well all of that doesn't apply to my small point.
There is no correlation between passing a welding test and your reference to "knowing better". No more, no less.
Your comment's about "your certified now", meaning you "should know better". That's what I'm commenting on. You really can't make that leap.
JTMcC.
I think one of the main things to remember is that having passed a welding test is only on small part of running a welding/fabricating business. If you have a engineering degree or employ someone that does then you can charge for this portion of the job. If not, dont build anything untill it has been done the right way. The prospect of a large job or customer who has alot of work will tend to make you go above and beyond your scope of expertise, and this can be dangerous. At very least it will lead to a contractor using you to solve his problems and saving money at your risk. There are tons of jobs that your experience will lead you through-but this one needs a paper trail.
That's the thing, it's beyond my expertise and dangerous mainly to others for me to spec out what size materials, what should be used. I told them today that for me to do it I was gonna have to have prints/stamps and permits if so required. They said permits were a no go and they were not gonna get an engineer involved. Tomorrow they get the call from me saying thank you for the opportunity but no thanks. I did find a structural engineer and an architect for future jobs and the architect actually wants me to do some work in his office :-)
So not all bad
You're right JTM. I'm guessing that he's referring to being a certified welder. Problem with that is that it means Cummins knows how to weld. Not to make the critical engineering decisions, which is what the client is wanting Cummins to do. Any mechanical/civil engineer, with a stamp, went to school for 6 or more years to learn the physics of how things react and what happens where. Hence, the reason they charge what they do to put that lil stamp approving the drawings. If it wasn't that way, God knows what kinda crap we'd be driving on or working in. If they didn't want to have the drawings done by a professional with experience and stamp, I wouldn't chance it. There's too much riding on it for some poor guy walkin down the street if something bad happens to the awning. Plus, most municipalities would want it approved because it would have the possibility of affecting the public if something did happen. No stamped drawings, no way I'd touch it.
Your right tig and JTM, I know how to weld and I agree about the engineering. But you guys know that you've been out somewhere and they say, we need to do this and that little flag goes up and you wonder?? I did'nt have any drawings presented to me, just pull something out of my hat is what they wanted for monetary reasons. But like you guys say, if it had prints and all paperwork in order no problem, but this one the more I talk to them is high risk better left to someone else.
They actually wanted me to move beams inside a building at one point, actual supporting members, get some new I beam to put in place.....up went the little flag and the first words out of my mouth were, we need to get an engineer involved before I touch it. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make when I say I should know better, does that make sense?
For the most part it's in my best interest to abandon all communications with these folks all together. I'm putting a lot into my business to stake a good reputation with quality workmanship, just want to do it right, the same way I would want my stuff done.
Luckily, when we run into problems at the job site, the company has an engineer that can do field corrections when necessary. There's been alot of times there is something that wasn't supposed to be there and then we bring the foreman up to get the enineering to look at it. The client sounds like he doesn't understand the kind of forces he's dealing with, specially wantin you to move a load-bearing structure to run some I-beam. You did the right thing stopping them right there. It does make sense about knowing better, but alot of clients that are out there don't. They think that we can do whatever they want because they have no idea about structures and what carries a load and what doesn't. If they only had a clue about what would happen. In my opinion, if they're trying to do everything the cheap way, I don't blame you for stopping communication with them. If they're tryin to go cheap on the structure, think about how much run-around they'll give you when it's time to pay for your services. It's good to see that you care about your workmanship because there are alot of people out there who don't. They would prolly do the project and weld it up with 6011 cause it's cheap rod. I've seen it around here where I live an just can't believe that some of these people actually get called back to do other jobs cause they saved them a lil money but the product looks like hammered dog s**t. You've got the right idea, stop talkin to them about it if they don't want to do it the right way. A good name means alot to a business.
I too, think You should stand Your ground.
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