API 1104 Pipe fit up

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-09-2009 04:08

[deleted]

By ZCat

Date 02-09-2009 04:33

better lose the 3/32's now, rather than later, start using some 5/32's

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 02-09-2009 05:39

I've talked to the place that does my tests and explained what I'm doing, wanting high pressure gas. What they have told me, at least how I understood is 6" will get me down to 4", 4" will get me down to 2". I think, may be wrong but seems like 6 will get me 12? I'll have to double check that one though. I'll also have to do a two inch tie in. More procedures, more tests....more money but I'm hoping that's what it will lead to. What I've learned is the gas companies around here don't have their own welders, everything is contracted out, pipeline, meter sets, tie ins. I have a close contact who worked for a gas company and knows this first hand. Kinda what I'm going for. Good advise though and that makes sense what your saying, now I don't feel bad for not being able to run a 1/8 rod in a 1/8 gap, I can almost get it though, shaking like a crack addict looking for a fix! Also good idea to get used to the bigger rod, I've read that on here someplace concerning the 7018 as well.

Kahunna when you say the 12" are you talking oil pipeline? Just curious, always wanting to learn more from seasoned vets. Thats what they taught us when I went through auto/diesel school. One teacher told us, "find the oldest mechanic in the shop, pick his brain for everything he knows, then move on to the next oldest guy". I learned alot from those guys....then I became one of those guys, young kids asking me crap!

I'm to old to try and start at $10 an hour as a helper, doing that won't leave me time to do side work trying to survive so I have to make this work. Heck, I spent my saturday and sunday cutting out pipe, beveling and welding. Sun up to sundown, picked my tools up today after they sat out all night saturday so I'd have them ready this morning. Probably do the same tomorrow then go into school at night and do it somemore.

Thanks again for the pointers!

Shawn

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-09-2009 14:25

Mr. 71,
On a 4 or 6 inch test, the old school rule we used was nickel gap and land ( 0.073 and 3/32 = 0.093 ) a heavy 1/16" (.0625) with 1/8" Exx10
I just hope that your not paying for that test unless you know for a fact it is a prerequisite to pre-hire for a particular job you are applying for.
Make sure you are in contact with "the MAN". Just because ABC Testing says that Dino-farts Gas Company uses this test don't mean sqaut.
All I'm advising is that certs in the wallet don't normally get jobs.
I've only had one job that said they needed to see a current cert b4 hire and there was no test given... water well driller needed extensions on some well casing back in the '70s.

"everything is contracted out, pipeline, meter sets, tie ins. I have a close contact who worked for a gas company " Your also going to need some serious Insurance coverage. Rig welding on a cross country transmission line is usually not nearly expensive as the coverage required to work on "live line", tie-ins or "weld over the hole!"
What ever dbigk says, read it again carefully and heed. He knows his stuff from Shinola.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 02-09-2009 14:58

Thanks Superflux, yes as I educate myself more there is alot to welding when it comes to certs and such. I've got insurance, carry it for the biz right now. $1,000,000 and something else in there about $2,000,000. Yes, dbigk's post is very good...more education,

thanks again,

shawn

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-09-2009 15:13

shawn,
Oil and Gas type coverage is worse yet when I had it a few years back 1997, 1 mil with the 2mil rider for general fabrication was 1200 a year. in 1999 I went in to the Coal bed Methane and was required to have 5 mil (by the gas company/field developer) and with the over the hole and some other Oil field type coverage it went up to over $7000 a year. (agent said something about blowing up a drilling rig is a more expensive lawsuit than your run of the mill a handrail fell on my foot)
Not trying to scare but prepare...

John

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 02-09-2009 16:05

"agent said something about blowing up a drilling rig is a more expensive lawsuit than your run of the mill a handrail fell on my foot"

yeah, sarcasm at it's finest! :-) very true words indeed, how would that look on your business references! So you blew up a rig huh?? (if you actually survived the explosion...then survived the rig hands who who tried to kill you after you blew it up) Thanks again John, not scared, just preparing and learning.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-09-2009 18:11

[deleted]

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 02-09-2009 20:54

dbigkahunna,
I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of pipelining but I have a couple of queries regarding your statements above.
I must qualify my statements by saying I am an ex-pipeline helper, sideboom operator,welder, inspector, radiographer from the Southern Hemisphere so things we do may be totally different to the way you do things in the US.
I do not agree that getting "bits of paper" is a waste of money. Everybody is "green" once and if a bit of paper helps you get your foot in the door to get a test it is worth it.
If I have two welders after a job working for me and one has previous qualifications and the other has never passed a test I would choose the one with a "bit of paper". It is worthless in regard to that job but it is proof that he has been able to weld to API 1104 standard in the past.

I fail to see the need for multiple qualification unless you are a permanent employee of a welding company. Most pipelines in this part of the world are staffed with welding contractors, they go from one line to the next so they test for each new job. Pipelines are not like refineries, you will not be welding multiple diameters and thicknesses each day, you weld hundreds or thousands of identical thickness, identical diameter pipe. I would have tested out approx 30 times, if it was an 8" line, I did an 8" coupon - 12" line, 12" coupon.
I have never seen the 12 on 12 done so I am not sure of how long it takes but I would think it would take some time.
If I have a 16" pipeline and I need 50 welders,surely I would test them all on a single 16" coupon - why would I waste all the time and money on the multiple qualification test ?

Cummins71 - A 6" coupon will cover you for 2" to 12" and depending on thickness of your coupon you can get coverage from 0.188" to 0.750" in one qualification, 6G will give you all positions as well.
Regards,
Shane

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 02-09-2009 21:03

dbigkahunna,
Unless I am reading API 1104 Clause 6.2.2 incorrectly a 4" pipe qualifies you from 2" (2.375" OD) to 12" (12.750 OD)
Regards,
Shane

By JTMcC

Date 02-09-2009 23:50 Edited 02-09-2009 23:55

The pipe sizes he's talking about will be a fairly common test in distribution work, it would be incredibly rare to test on those for mainline construction in the U.S.

In the U.S. today, the welder will typically take a half a weld on whatever the line pipe is, so if they are building a 42" line the welder will weld one side of a 42. If he's only going to weld in the firing line that may be all he takes (but not neccessarily). Everyone else will likely do a branch and a lot of times a LoHi sleeve test as well. Those welders are then qualified for work on tie ins, fabrication, bores, lowering in, ect.
Someone has to build the valve sets, the bypasses, weld o'lets for various reasons, hot bends, fittings, build the launchers and catchers, etc. Lots of welds to be made other than joining line pipe.

JTMcC.

having papers in hand is a good thing in U.S. mainline construction because you can use it to write phone numbers on the back or soak up spilled coffee in the truck. Other than that they are of no value to the gas company, the contractor or the welder foreman.

By JTMcC

Date 02-10-2009 01:42

In the PL world you will be running your bead with 5/32" rod, all else with 3/16" or 5mm. Rarely, on smaller line pipe in thinner WT you'll get to use 1/8", but don't count on it.

On small bore distribution test's you'll run into 1/8" and 3/32".

I've never had an inspector have anything to say about the space used, maybe they are out there, but it's generally up to the welder.

A penny or a clear lens is what most guys use for space for running a bead with 5/32" rod. A penny is about .056", a clear lense is around .060". I just can't imagine running a bead down hill with 1/8" space and 1/8" rod. What a bunch of extra work that would be for me. DH beads go in fast and pretty hot. My guess is that you are moving very slow to make that weld. I would be concerned about internal undercut on top of the real slow pace and just too much work for the welder.

My take only.

JTMcC.

By Johnyutah (**)

Date 02-10-2009 02:25

I agree on the spacing never had a inspector say a thing about my gap as long as I could burn it in I set most of my joints up with my spacing wedges eye the gap and go to work. And I would also just go for the 6" in the 6g position get that one cert and forget the rest it shows you can do it and there going to test you anyhow. And on a side note I would ask the guy why would you put an 1/8" gap for 1/8" rod thats a wast of time and rod or say I'll set it up how I want it I'm the one making the weld.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 02-10-2009 18:54

Yeah Johny I can't remember where I saw the 1/8th gap thing. Seems like I read it somewhere, where? Who knows, h-ll I may be confused. On a good note, I cut out 4 coupons last night and we did root bends on them, they were good but I still was not happy with some of the imperfections in the root, believe it is my tie ins at the tack welds looking at the locations. I'm not getting any undercut in the root, it's layed out real well. I think with me it's about getting my land right, I had a thin land last night and had a heck of a time getting the root in. My cap on the other hand is coming along nicely, actually starting to look good. We also did a notch test. Found tiny bits of slag between the cap and the hot pass, did not spend a whole lot of time cleaning the hot, just hit it with a wire brush and went on. I've got a wire wheel on my grinder now and it cleans that hot pass out quick and good. Teach last night said I was about ready to start running uphill, but I'm not happy with my downhill personally. I want to grab the pipe, bevel, set up and put in a good root continuously before I say, next.

I had my wife record me running a root and watched it many times. Then I noticed something. At one point my rod was getting off to one side and I was trying to adjust(this was under the hood I noticed this). As I watched the video I noticed why. As I was coming down with my head my hood started to gently push into my hand. I did'nt feel it on my hand or on the hood while running the rod but just enough to get me out of sorts.

As far as papers go some more that I have learned, around here the local gas companies use the same place to write their procedures that I get my stuff tested at. As far as welding the meter sets, tie ins and so on basically they want to see your papers, proof of insurance. Something about don't have time to test every joe to their procedures when joe's procedures are identical to what they have. Also learned you could adopt a companies procedures to have your own identical papers to what they require. I also learned that a place like Duke would likely test you onsite to their procedures on the bigger lines. I don't know if it's different states or what. In Nashville I know of only one place that tests/writes procedures for welding and their some top notch folks.

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-10-2009 21:06 Edited 02-10-2009 21:12

71,

" In Nashville I know of only one place that tests/writes procedures for welding and their some top notch folks. " That is the place I would be concentrating my efforts to work for. Those that place more emphasis on Quality tend to be better organized and SAFETY CONSCIOUS, which translates into superior all around working conditions!

The few times I've used API 1104, one thing that stood out is how much leeway the code will give to "the company". It will be a beautiful thing for you if when the time comes to breakout in the field and be pre tested and certified, it just is not common practice in the venues I am affiliated with, as dbigk said earlier it's too easy to falsify documents.

Rod size, gap, land and amperage are all interrelated. For instance, I prefer to weld pipe with as close to zero gap as possible, no land. 6" pipe, Torch Bevel 2 ends 37*, wirewheel the oxidation off, slam 'em up tight (barely daylight visible in the gap), 3 tacks 0, 180 and 90 degrees 1/8" 6010 set to the same amperage that I would run 1/8" 7018 vertical up (I tend to weld hot!).
OK, the fit-up coupons in the as cut O.A.L. are probably the same as if I were to have prepped the ends to a "factory land" and gapped to 3/32". this saves me the time of figuring take-out for gap, grinding for prep and never changeing the heat/amps on my welder. I'm not suggesting you weld this way, everyone is different, this is my way of "Less is More" when it comes to speed/prduction/# of welds per day. Now if I wanted, I could use 1/8" 6010, 1/8" gap, 1/8" land and put in a nice "wedding band" root . Then I'd be jacking up the amps for a hot pass, ALL that grinding for prep...I much rather spend my time with hood down working the "golden arm" than faceshield on wearing out my grinding hands.
It keeps me ahead of the pack and more time in the butt hut smoking my Camels, sippin sodas and listening to roadwhore stories about that job in Texas that's so big the handrails are made out of 8".

Only with Tig is it common practice to gap as wide or wider than the filler rod.
Most pipeliners I've been around gap with a piece of banding steel.
As aveald recommended, just don't get radical and change only one variable at a time and familiarize your self with those individual adjustments and techniques.
Sounds like you are ambitious, have the proper attitude and will be the exception to my observation that most newbies over 35 (like athletes) do not excell at welding.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-10-2009 02:06

[deleted]

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 02-11-2009 14:05

I took your advise Kahunna and went with a bigger land, closed up my gap a tad less than 3/32 on a piece of 6" last night. I think my land was near 3/32. Used a 1/8 rod and ran a great looking root. I also figured out that I was probably running a bit slow. I think I was trying to push the rod through the pipe most all the way opening up a big keyhole. Last night I got it to where I could just here the thrust sound and started draggin' the rod down. I'm getting close, gonna run more tonight also going to cut up the one I did last night just to do a few notch tests and see if theres any slag. Like I've been told before, keep burning that rod. Teach last night looked at it and said, "now that's a pipe weld" my cap is lookin good, just need to keep up the consistancy all the way around.