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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Welding decking
- - By jsdwelder (***) Date 02-02-2009 22:35
Does anyone have any info about about what type of certification one would need to weld down decking? We are making what we all call "puddle welds" with 6022 and an inspector is requireing us to be certified but we are in the dark about what we need for certs. I don't know that he even knows what we need, just that we need to be certified. We have structural certs with 7018 which would qualify us for F1-F4 electrodes, but I am unclear about the thickness range, being that the decking is 22 ga. What would these type of welds be considered. I cant see where they would be fillet or groove or even plug welds. Any help is appreciated
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 02-02-2009 22:55
Try looking at AWS D1.3
Parent - By clutch (*) Date 02-03-2009 00:35
First you will need a WPS. a written procedure basically explaining how you plan on welding the sheet to supporting member. Like Hogan says its all in D1.3 but if your not code savy then it may be difficult to interpret. but I dont have a code book by me but I think once you perform the WPS and the torsion test, which the inspector should be aware of, is complete and passes your qualified. but prior to all this the WPS must be tested or proof of a PQR must be submitted to the engineer for consideration, maybe check your decking supplier or fabricator and ask if they have a WPS with a PQR you could use for your job. I'm pretty sure thats how it goes if Im wrong Im sure I'll hear about it.LOL
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-03-2009 17:44
jsd,

First off, your structural certs will not cover decking.  It does, as was stated, fall under D1.3.  The tests are very simple to perform and test.  The CWI can easily examine them right in your shop or out on the job.

Second, you will need to establish your WPS and more than likely what you are doing will fall under a pre-qualified procedure.  Then test to that.

Third,  I prefer 6010 to 7018 by a long shot for decking.  There are other good rods as well, but 7018 is very difficult to constantly be re-striking the arc.

Lastly, more than likely you will not get a WPS from the decking supplier.  I don't believe they have any of that type of info.  This is your area of expertise, not theirs at all.

D1.3 is a resonably cheap (compared to D1.1) code book to either download or recieve in hard copy.  It sounds like you should get one.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 02-03-2009 20:32
6022 is made specifically for welding decking down.

JTMcC.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-03-2009 21:01
FWIW, Some of our customers have written that only 70 series or even mention that only lo-hi are to be used on their project....so watch those contract docs closely for verbage that restricts the use of 60 series eletrodes. I've seen our deck guys(our subs) get the inspector's undies all wadded up over this in the past because they didn't read the contract close enough.
Parent - - By clutch (*) Date 02-04-2009 03:59
An arc spot weld, sheet to a supporting member is not prequalified you will need a WPS and a PQR. but it sounds like your inspector doesnt know anyway so if you had a WPS you'd probably be in good shape. Most likely you can use a 6010 or 6022 but just use the one you put in your WPS.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 02-05-2009 17:36
Along the lines of what John said, if the deck is welded to the top flange of an A992 member, I'd think that the electrode would have to be low hydrogen, because that's the electrode requirement for A992.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 02-05-2009 17:58
Do we have a code of construction here?
Not just what we think it should be but one that is specifically referenced in the contract documents.
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 02-06-2009 03:19
I agree check the contract if the D1.3-08 ends up being the correct code for your spot welding of sheet deck, which it most likely will, here some homework.
1) 1.4.4.2 Low Hydrogen electrode control................structural members over ¼" ................as specified in D1.1
(6022 is specifically made for welding deck and works great ... but cannot be used when welding to A992 beams ....see D1.1 table 3.1 etc.)
2) 2.2.4 the spot shall be at least 3/8" at the fusion surface (see the commentary  - doing the math........... the thicker the sheet and number of sheets, equal a larger surface spot to get the required 3/8" or larger fusion nugget at the support surface)
3) 2.3.5.1 restricted to the flat position and the spot shall be at least 3/8" at the fusion surface
4) 4.6.4 testing.........Table 4.1......Table 4.2 #8, #10a, #12, #13 & #26........Table 4.4.........figure 4.4
5) Commentary C-2.2.4 (doing the math)
Parent - - By jsdwelder (***) Date 02-14-2009 23:37 Edited 02-14-2009 23:40
I am of the thinking that AWS D1.1, table 3.1 specifies base metal-filler metal combo's that are prequalified. Since I am doing a PQR and not using a prequalified procedure shouldn't I be able to use 6022,as it is covered by A5.1, regardless of the base metal specification? Please advise if I'm seeing this wrong.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-15-2009 04:23
I would refer this one to the engineer of record. He is the person with the authority to make a on something such as this.

Qualifying a procedure to D1.3 doesn't verify the mechanical properties as does D1.1, D1.5, etc.

This isn't a call the CWI should be making.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 02-15-2009 05:12
Yes, you can use E6022 to weld deck if you use the required preheat and you are welding group 1 deck  to group 1 supporting members.

Please Note welding to any group 2 steel that "does require a Low Hydrogen electrode" would not be allowed using the E6022 without specific approval from the engineer of record on each job/contract under D1.1 or D1.3. Therefore if you are thinking of doing a PQR using E6022 to weld decking onto A992 supporting member "beams"  I think your wasting your time.

I asked Lincoln a year ago about a Lo Hi rod for welding decking like the E6022, they did email me back and said they are working on it. The first rod manufacturer that comes up with one will make millions on it.

If anyone has found a way around the Low Hydrogen electrode requirement on group 2 steels please let us know.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-24-2009 16:40
Bump...just bumping this back to the top. I'd like to see if any of you have found the work around the Lo-Hi on Group II materials also. I need to qualify some guys pretty soon to D1.3 so they can lay some decking. I'm not all that familiar with D1.3, so I'm in the research mode, which is how I came across this thread again.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-25-2009 03:28
I took a decking test that specifically required the use of E7018. It works, I passed, all is well.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-27-2009 12:26
Al,
I bet the decking guy is gonna have a hissy fit....they like those 6022's due to the restriking ability. Oh well, it is what it is, they will just have to suck it up and pad their bids a little bit better for jobs where they can't use the 6022.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-27-2009 13:37 Edited 07-27-2009 13:40
It has been on the big projects that had close oversight by knowledgeable inspectors and supporting engineering staffs that I was required to weld the decking with low hydrogen electrodes. The inspectors actually checked to see that an electrode oven was in use and plugged in! It was before the introduction of A992 for WF sections and the need, or better yet, the insistence of using low hydrogen electrodes. What I'm trying to say is the use of low hydrogen electrode for welding decking isn't new.

There was some moaning and groaning. The welder performance test (something unheard of for welding decking) eliminated a number of "would be" deck welders. Notice I didn't say "wanna be" because no one wants to weld decking!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-31-2009 22:44
UPDATE to this thread:

The newer D1.3:2008 has exclusions for preheat for arc spot welds and arc seam welds....check out Annex A Table A.1 Note 1 for applicability.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 08-04-2009 14:10
Wow, this was a very interesting read. WPS for welding decking? Testing...., won't even begin to tell you what I've seen.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-04-2009 15:49
You forgot to mention the PQRs.... <grin>

Most of this testing is fairly easy, but they want you to confirm that the welds being placed are possible and being produced with satisfactory results.
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 08-08-2009 06:47
Lately we have avoided puddle welding the decking down all together.   We have found that using the hilti powder actuated fasteners to pin the decking down.    The time savings MORE than makes up for the cost difference.  

Our hilti rep has been our biggest champion for getting the engineers on board with this process.    Now you wont be able to completely eliminate puddle welding but you can reduce it by 98%  

The Labor savings is even greater when being forced to use 70 series electrodes.   Couple that with not having to hassle with keeping the rods in the oven and the inspector pacified its a definite win win for us.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-10-2009 11:36
Interesting alternative. Do you have a link to the hilti product that works for this purpose? I would like to have another tool in my bag to be able to throw out onto the table when required.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-11-2009 02:28
It should be interesting to see how in works in the field when the two sheets aren't tight to the steel framing. Nothing like ricocheting pins on the job site in the morning. It smells like victory!

I would expect nothing less from a salesman. I would be surprised if he were to say, “These new fangled pins ain’t the best in the world, but it’s better’n a sharp stick in the eye! Give me a minute; I have to flush the pus from my eye socket.”

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 08-11-2009 06:13
The pins work 1000 Times better than puddle welding for difficult to align sheets.   On smaller jobs where I have less than a couple thousand square feet of decking it isn't worth going through the hassle of getting the engineer to sign off on the pins.    BUT I will still use them to pull the decking down in bad spots so I can get a suitable puddle going.  

Just recently I had a real stickler of a CWI on a decking job that wanted PERFECT spacing on the puddles.  well you can only beat on a panel so much to get it to conform to the surface.   And if the engineer puts a 1/2" plate under the corner of the sheet.  GOOD LUCK beating that corner down to conform.   but one Pin and bobs your uncle you can lay a puddle right next to it NO PROBLEMS.

Here's the link

The fastener.
http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_fuse.jsp?RANGE_OID=12373

The hand held tool.
http://www.hilti.com/holcom/modules/prcat/prca_fuse.jsp?RANGE_OID=17465&fview=1

The stand up "Money Maker" model
http://www.hilti.com/holcom/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-23917

Testimonials
http://www.us.hilti.com/data/techlib/docs//decking/Testimonials/customer_testimonials.pdf

I too was skeptical of these.  Who hasn't heard the pitches of "this is the greatest thing ever"  But these simply MAKE YOU MONEY.  

The salesman is MY Ali to convince the engineers.  I know how well they work, I personally used them in the field and did my own destructive testing in the shop.   

Their is a safety factor to consider because if you do miss the joist they will blow a hole through the deck.    But just like welding I keep everyone out from the work area until the pinning has been completed.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-11-2009 12:31
Dualie,
   Speaking of safety, I am not sure if you are aware of this but Hilti offers a free train the trainer safety course for the power actuated hand tools. They have a rep come and train one one person and that person is then an "authorized instructor" who can then give the course (with test) they provide. Then you fill out the "qualified operator" card for the person/people trained. Or they will train all of the effected employee's for you. This keeps you compliant with OSHA. I have yet to see it, but I was told that OSHA can be pretty picky when it comes to power actuated tools that shoot projectiles. Of course, I have not done much with these in the past either.

Anyways, just thought I would throw that out there for you.

jrw159
Attachment: img-618104758.pdf (14k)
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 08-12-2009 06:12
when I first started using the system I had everyone INCLUDING the secretary "certified" to use powder actuated fasteners.   I should have gone the next step and became a qualified person myself so I could certify others to use the tools.

IT could be yet another useless thing I have to have a piece of paper to say I know.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 12:07
Dualie,
  You are in good shape as far as a safety inspection goes. As far as being a qualified instructor goes, I feel the biggest factor would be your turn over rate. If you have a high turn over rate it would be a good thing to have. If it is low, it is just another card. IMHO.

We went this route just to cover the base before hand. I have run across some pretty hard core safety inspectors in the past and it is much easier to be able to whip that card out if the need arises than to scramble to get every one trained.

jrw159
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 08-14-2009 07:14
Givin the current work climate our Newest employee has been with the company going on 8 years now.

Since i really don't have anything else going on right now i might as well become a certified powder actuated fastener trainer.

to satisfy plicky Company safety men i have gone as far as designating a "range master" to keep people out of the firing range.   Creating an "exclusion zone" with proper barricading and entry forbidden sinage and a perimeter patrol to make sure people were truly kept out. 

You know the same safety men that have the rental company come out and turn down the operating speed on the AWP's because sudden and jerky moments cause instability.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 12:28
Yeah, I am familiar with those guys. That's a good thing that you have a low turn over rate. I hate getting someone trained properly and then see them leave. Here where I work now, the turn over rate is not very high, but in the past I have been at places that as soon as they get going, their gone.

jrw159
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Welding decking

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