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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / thermal arc blow
- - By craig clapper Date 04-15-2009 14:17
I have recently seen a few 1 inch plates welded in quailification in which the weld incountered thermal arc blow. Now the problem seems to exsist in the 3G position(progression up) and only in the top half of the plate. I've tried turning down the heat and moving the ground clamp w/ no success. Is there anything else that can be done.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 04-15-2009 14:23
I'm no expert on arc blow, but I do not believe that it is common with plates used in qualification.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-15-2009 14:24
Craig

I have a few steps that I try to do in order... My shop has bad arc blow for SMAW, but the direction of the blow differs from day to day so the solutions do also.

1.  Work clamp close to weld... Weld away from clamp.
2.  Wrap work cable clockwise around table leg or pipe if possible. weld away from clamp
3.  Wrap work cable counterclockwise around leg or pipe,,, Weld away from clamp
4.  Repeat steps welding toward clamp (this is a last resort and doesn't often work)
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 04-15-2009 20:45
Craig, I've expirienced similar stuff and found the problem in my shop was that over time running multiple welders through their various levels of qualification testing all in the same weld test booth, the table and fixture developed residual magnatisim (noticed by the grinding dust accumulating like metalic fuz on tool that were left on the welding table).
Here's a good link to read -might help.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/arcblow.asp
Parent - - By william seering (*) Date 04-16-2009 02:07
heating the area up sometimes reduces magnetisim
Parent - - By SWP (**) Date 04-16-2009 14:08
Weld with AC, no arc blow.
Parent - - By william seering (*) Date 04-17-2009 01:57
yes i agree last time i run into the phenominum it was p91 so it was tig root tried all the tricks about 600 degree preheat worked about the best for that as no ac with the tig root  i have also seen them hook up 2 more welding machines up to the area one on each side of the machine inteded to weld the joint this also worked i hear tell they have such a animal called a demagnifier i never saw one but i believe it is so
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-17-2009 02:36
A demagnatizer is a coil of wire with AC running through it. There are little ones You can hold in Your hand up to ones big enough to run a submarine into. You can use an AC buzz box welder and a length of lead to do the same thing, it doesn't take a whole lot of power.
Parent - By labib (*) Date 04-17-2009 15:16
Hammering the area to be welded
Parent - By william seering (*) Date 04-17-2009 16:23
good input out in the field that be right handy
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 04-18-2009 04:12
during WWII they would demagnetize entire ships in an attempt to disrupt early  magnetic based sea-mines. Not sure how well it worked though
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-18-2009 13:37 Edited 04-18-2009 13:42
There is a difference between thermal arc blow and magnetic arc blow. The first thing you need to is identify which is your case.
You've stated it's thermal arc blow, but then you've stated "I've tried turning down the heat and moving the ground clamp w/ no success"

That later sentence implies you suspect magnetic arc blow rather than thermal arc blow. I believe the other responses reflect that implication.

With that said, let's give a rough definition of the two most common forms in ascending order of probability.

Thermal arc blow: As you advance along the plate, the gap between the rod and the surface of the weld pool is ionized. That space becomes more conductive and facilitates transfer of the arc/heat from the rod to the plate. This condition sets up "thermal back blow" as the arc attempts to maintain itself through the ionized hot space rather than the cold space/cold plate. Some level of thermal back blow is not detrimental and effectively unavoidable. However; when you try to run to fast, or without enough heat, you're trying to transfer the arc through a zone of higher resistance with the inherent weld quality issues that evolve from that condition.

Magnetic arc blow: MAB is due to magnetic lines of force/eddys in an unbalanced condition. It is also the reason thermal arc blow (TAB) is hard to diagnose. The inherent pushing of the arc due to magnetic lines of force/flux can push the arc away from the ionization zone and into a more resistive area which by default increases the arc blow effect. Going back to what causes MAB when those lines of force get out of balance, they tend to leave every increasing levels of residual magnetism. In effect the situation just makes itself worse the longer it's left unaddressed. After some time, TAB is no longer a concern.

Fixing MAB is relatively straightforward in that you either eliminate residual magnetism, and or balance the magnetic flux conditions. You've already received some valuable comments in that regards. Defining the difference between TAB and MAB and in particular, the point in which one begins to amplify the other, that is not so easy.

Some additional information;
Most articles I've read claim MAB can only be caused by 50 gauss (as determined by gauss's law for magnetism) but the evidence I've personally witnessed and researched defies that common logic in that it does not take into account the lower levels in which < 50 gauss flux lines amplify the inherent effects of TAB without leaving > 50 gauss in residual magnetic flux lines. It also doesn't take into account the materials in question. Nickel in particular is also ferromagnetic with a low curie temperature. That low curie temperature when welding materials high in Ni, causes the magnetic domains to align and snap the moment the metal drops below the curie temp. Unlike Fe which has a high curie point, the lower curie point of Ni effectively gives more time for alignment of the magnetic domain fields.

These are just some of the points to be considered. I'll desist on theory at this point. But I do strongly suggest you identify which is your case (TAB or MAB) before proceeding.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By jsdwelder (***) Date 04-20-2009 00:46
Had the same problem in our school running 6010 and 7018. Usually only a problem with electrodes larger than 1/8". One trick I found was to use a machine that has an AC balance on it and run it on AC with your balance set more to the DCEP side. Runs just like DCEP without the arc blow. The problems associated with a balanced AC current, like the sticking and hard starting are all but eliminated.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-21-2009 12:36
Demagnetize the plates with a magnetic particle testing yoke set on AC. Place the yoke close to the part, energize and slowly move the yoke further and further from the part while turning the yoke 90 degrees in either direction. De-energize the yoke once it is about three feet from the parts.

An alternative method is to:

Demagnetize the parts by wrapping at least five turns of cable around the parts. Energize the coil using an AC welder set at high current and reduce the current with the fine current control to the minimum setting. Repeat successively lower amperage ranges if the machine has multiple amperage ranges. Repeat the process using fewer wraps of cable until there is only the one wrap around the parts.Turn the parts 90 degrees and repeat. 

Once the parts are demagnetized, use multiple tack welds, i.e., tack weld the plates in all four corners. If necessary use scrap bars to tack and brace the two top corners when welding in the vertical position.

The problem is most likely simple arc blow from a concentration of welding current through one or two small tack welds securing the test plates to the test stand/work bench. The use of multiple tack welds reduced the current density and the resulting magnetic field.

Best regards - Al
Attachment: DemagPlate21-April-09.pdf (184k)
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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / thermal arc blow

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