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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Universal Healthcare
- - By swsweld (****) Date 03-22-2009 03:17
We know it's coming. Most likely before the 2010 elections because if the Democrats lose many seats UH may never get passed. It would also add to Obamas' legacy as the president that finally got it done.
One thing we know is it's not going to be "free". Our taxes will go up to pay for those that cannot or will not contribute to the system.
Healthcare now in the US is by no means perfect and is way too expensive. But it can be very good. Here are the statistics on our infant mortality rates and life expectancy compared to other modern nations.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html
There are factors that affect the US that are not prevalent in many of the leading nations. i.e. homicide rate here is much higher here than in Sweden.
I've heard lots of personal stories on TV and radio shows with horror stories on one side and others praising it. Most were from Canada and the UK. The argument against socialized healthcare is, the long waits, only the necessary treatments and medicine will be given, if you are too old or if the decider (government) doesn't want to spend the money on you, young or old, you go without just to name a few. We (especially this administration) don't respect life so I would expect euthanasia to be pretty common here. These stories do exist I'm not sure how often but here is a link to a sad case in the UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7956845.stm
I'm not for it because I don't trust our government to run it effectively or ethically. I don't want them to have control of life and death as was the case in the UK. Make no mistake it is about control not compassion. For the record I would not have been for it 4 years ago either. Not a republican/democrat thing for me. I don't want to depend on the government for EVERYTHING.
Parent - - By natecf (*) Date 03-22-2009 04:45
personally, the whole idea of it stinks. The less the gov't controls the better. the last thing anyone needs is some petty paper pusher deciding if you need an angiogram ar an antacid. pretty scary to think that it could be that way.I think half the reason healthcare in this country is so expensive in the first place, is because we need insurance for it at all. the insurance companies will only pay a % of what the dr. charges, therefore, in order to make any money the dr. needs to raise thier rates.
Don't get me wrong, I have pretty good coverage that is 100% employer payed, as it is now we are on the brink of loosing it because of the ever increasing costs. so I'm not to into introducing a whole new system that would end up costing the middle class untold sums of our hard earned $$$. as if we aren't already giving it up to just about everyone else who can't manage thier own businesses.
        I sure wish I had an answer, but until then I'll just hope that someone a whole lot smarter than me figures it out. The future looks pretty scary it sure doesn't look like its going to get any easier any time soon.
small incremental steps toward tyranny are far more insidious than one large one. this is just one step we won't know when its to late to change things until it is. but that is just my opinion
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-22-2009 05:40
    Health care in the US is expensive because it is a FOR PROFIT BUSINESS and everyone involved in it makes a good to really good living at it. The arguement can be made that the govt. could run it without profit, and therefore it would be cheaper, but historicly when the govt. gets involved in something there is frequently enough waste, graft etc. to waste as much money as private corporations pay in profit.

     My cousin is a prof. at a university in Wales. They have socialised medicine there, but most people carry insurance in addition to it, because by itself it is insufficient.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-22-2009 05:42
    Health care in the US is expensive because it is a FOR PROFIT BUSNESS and everyone involved in it makes a good to really good living at it. The arguement can be made that the govt. could run it without profit, and therefore it would be cheaper, but historicly when the govt. gets involved in something there is frequently enough waste, graft etc. to waste as much money as private corporations pay in profit.

     My cousin is a prof. at a university in Wales. They have socialised medicine there, but most people carry insurance in addition to it, because by itself it is insufficient.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 03-23-2009 05:21
I think everyone forgets that we already have universal health care in the fact that emergency rooms don't have right of refusal, the cost of the uninsured is covered by higher premiums for the insured. and emergency room visits are much more expensive than preventive health care like regular physicals and medication.

also we  subsidize lower cost prescription medication overseas because UH systems in other countries can negotiate lower costs through bulk purchasing. Pharmaceuticals offset this by charging individuals (read us in the US) a higher cost.

while philosophically I agree that in general most markets are better as free markets health care is not one of those systems. Fundamentally it would work a lot better if everyone had health insurance, but for the unemployed or those below the poverty line often this is not a realistic option.

AT any rate something has to be done, while traditionally American health care has done better in some areas such as cancer treatment we spend far more than any industrialized nation to cover not even our whole population, is this something to be proud of? apparently that uninsured percentage is all lazy? but why does it cost us soo much more to insure so few?

"...Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations' budgets. The U.S. government spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2004, the government of Canada spent $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2,724.[11]
However, U.S. government spending covers less than half of all health care costs. Private spending for health care is also far greater in the U.S. than in Canada. In Canada, an average of $917 was spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the U.S., this sum is $3,372.[11] In 2006, health care consumed 15.3% of U.S. annual GDP. In Canada, only 10% of GDP was spent on health care.[5] This difference is a relatively recent development. In 1971 the nations were much closer, with Canada spending 7.1% of GDP on health while the U.S. spent 7.6%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared#Coverage_and_access
are you saying we can't meet or beat the canadians in service while spending billions more?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-23-2009 07:49
"but why does it cost us soo much more to insure so few?"

You answered your own question....

Canadians are refused service every day........... Where healthcare is a *right*.

Canadians are told to get in line.... Death, especially for the elderly often comes before they get their turn.  My Canadian relatives HATE their Socialized health care.

Canadians pour over the American boarder to recieve U.S. Healthcare....... They don't pay... Americans do

Mexicans pour over the American boarder to recieve U.S. healthcare..... They don't pay the *billions*... Americans do.

This may be one reason the Per Capita cost of U.S. health care is a bit spendy
Parent - By darren (***) Date 05-02-2009 08:06
i dont think it is foreign nationals that are the heavy expense in medical systems, pure old greed is, mutual funds and retirement plans need profit as well as do the employees and shareholders of medical provision services and products.
ive found our system pretty good (the people are outstanding)  but there is many instances of bad practice. i think that the real trouble is that we are just product and the for profit model abuses that, i dont know if there is an answer. micheal moores movie "sicko" showed a lot.
the medical system as well as others  just further my belief that the "system" is designed to be "broken" by default, at least for the people on the bottom of the worlds power pyramid.
the only time we will know the truth is when we are dead and by then we won't need any medical care.
funny how life works like that.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 03-23-2009 11:37
We should ask some of our Canadian and other non-American contributors to this Forum to chime in on this.  I have heard both sides of the Universal Healthcare and I would like to think that if anyone can do it right it "should" be the US.  But unfortunatly the American healthcare philosophy is different.  We are not concerned enough with prevantative medicine as with treating the disease. 

One of my tries to stop smoking, I didn't understand why the insurance company wouldn't pay for the Patch or Nicorette, but they would pay for cancer treatments and heart surgeries all day long.   They wouldn't pay for birth control but they would pay for every kid you have and all of their healthcare needs.

I am sure that Michael Moore is not very popular amongst the Forum members, but his movie "Sicko" painted a pretty good picture of what other countries have in the way of healthcare.  With that said, there are just as many sources against UH as for. 
Parent - By uphill (***) Date 03-23-2009 12:05
Some of the problems in gov run healthcare comes from the compensation of government employees. I have a freind that is a canadian dentist, most of his work is done on reservations. He is working for the same money as some border guards.  I think he is as good as any dentist in america. He gets about half of the money he would if he worked in the US. He is a canadian to the bone and would never consider leaving. He does however come to the US for major medical procedures.
If you dont want to wait for 3-6 months between visits you go to the US.

I do think the old bumper sticker" Would you take a heart transplant from the lowest bidder?" sort of rings true for most gov controlled healthcare.

I lost a 1/2 inch of my right index finger at work. Instead of doing minor"cosmetic repair" they ground off the remaining bone round and sewed the fingernail bed back up. The cost of the "cosmetic repair" was about the same as the workmans comp settlement. I was not given a choice in the matter, or offered any options. I would have paid out of pocket for the whole finger.  That is the etched in stone mentality of gov control.
Sorry its hard to do a lot with a self inflicted stub.

"MM" is a pig and nothing but a publicity hound. His/her hate of "W" was the only reason for his little bit of fame. A hate mongering un-american that should go somewhere his  spew can be embraced. Maybe Iran?
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-04-2009 17:05
"we spend far more than any industrialized nation to cover not even our whole population, is this something to be proud of?"

This statement is tossed around a lot. But the truth of it is, differing systems are so complicated and comprehensive that most experts admit that they are not even sure how to compare them. All attempts at doing so are, by necessity, rife with arbitrary decisions. Many of which there seems no attempt at unbias.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 03-23-2009 17:02
I don't think I have heard Obama saying he wants the gov't to provide the health insurance.  He is suggesting some kind of private insurance where everyone could be covered - just like our car insurance system.  If there is more regulation, maybe health care could become more affordable.  Right now, it is an unfair system.  The people who CAN PAY pay for those who CANNOT PAY.  The insurance companies get huge discounts, while the uninsured pay through the nose.  I just had $240 worth of blood lab work done.  My insurance company got the PPO discount and only paid $40.  Now what if I did not have that insurance?  Then too, insurance companies can just refuse to pay out on their own whims, so having "private" insurance is sometimes not a lot better than having "socialized medicine".  A guy I work with had a heart attack on the weekend.  The people at the insurance company were not manning the phones, and did not "approve" his hospital admission.  They refused payment on a $10K hospital bill!  He sued of course and won the lawsuit, but it cost him around $3400 to pay for the lawyer to recover his $10K.  Now, how is that any better than so called "socialized" medicine?  We need better laws to protect the healthcare consumer before it gets any better.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2009 17:30
If you prefer beauracrats practicing medicine on you instead of doctors this is the system for you. Becasue guess who will be making the medical decisions if the government takes it over. The government of course.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 03-23-2009 17:47
But now its the insurance companies that dictate what type of care you can or can't get.  I know a guy that had a gastric bypass.  He was well overweight so the doctors said you need this surgery.  But his insurance company said that they won't pay for weight loss surgery.   Chronic obesity is a big contributor to numerous medical conditions like diabetes and heart conditions.  They wouldn't pay for a $25,000 surgery but they would pay for insulin, needles and cardiac bypass surgery.

The insurance business is a stupid business to start unless you have absolute power.  The fact that the insurance companies are for profit automatically makes it a crooked system.  They will take our money with no problem but when it comes to them footing the bill then they can find exclusions preventing their clients from getting the necessary treatments.  So your health is reliant on a company making a profit.  The prime reason for government intervention.  But then again I do lean Left.  :-)
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-04-2009 17:31
Bryon,
"fact that the insurance companies are for profit automatically makes it a crooked system."
"The prime reason for government intervention."

You're kidding right?
Are you actually making the argument that governments are less crooked than insurance companies?

Besides, nobody is arguing against some level of intervention. We already have some level of intervention. But this is long, long, way from socialized health care.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 03-23-2009 17:48
And what makes a beauracrat at a private health insurerer any different?  They can deny coverage just as easily as the government.  I know because they did it to me on a $3500 bill.  I had to either pay on my own, or get no treatment.  They were in violation of the contract and they knew it, but basically said so sue us.  I could not afford to pay the lawyer for such a small bill.

Again, as I said in my post, having PRIVATE insurance for everyone in the country would be a different scenario than having the government act as the insurance agent.  I think more laws to make them payout when they are obligated to would be a good thing.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2009 18:54
Yes, the insurance companies have beauracrats making some of the decisions and our proposed solution is to have them making all of the decisions.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 04-27-2009 20:12
They are up to their old tricks again.

I just had a colonoscopy.  They also took out a growth.  There were two seperate charges.  The insurance company paid for the inspection but not the polyp removal.  The surgery part was $875.  My doctor is unpaid.  I am in a fight. The insurance company says I can file a protest "grievance".  The thing is, I am supposed to have something like $1.5M to treat something like cancer.  This is related to treatment like that and yet they refuse?  Why do they have to make it so difficult?  They seem no different than the government in my opinion.  They make promises and then don't keep them!
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-27-2009 20:41
OBEWAN,
Insurance companies always seem to make that fight. Had the same exact problem with my wife. Is it surgery or exploratory, as you say. And, if they find something they almost always take it out. The insurance companies know this too. We fought it, or I should say, our doctor fought it, and they paid. I wonder who my advocate would have been in a socialized medicine system.
My congressman?
The ACLU?
PETA?
Judge Judy?

:)
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-28-2009 05:10 Edited 04-28-2009 05:20
My insurance Co. has paid out about 2.5 million in My colon cancer treatment so far, about 5 years. They will pay out a whole lot more in the years to come, chemo is over $50,000 per session, and I am supposed to get them 2 times a month. Over 100K/month half the months of the year to treat cancer that developed from a pollyp just like the one You had removed. I have an 8 million lifetime cap.

Removal of that little polyp saved them millions, and You a WHOLE LOT of grief.

The important part is You had it removed, fight about the costs later. I was 44 years old when diagnosed with colorectal cancer, and it had already metasticised, but We learned that later.

EDIT:

As I sit here typing this I am hooked to a pump infusing 5FU chemo into a vascular access port. I had a chemo infusion Monday for 4 1/2 hours, the visiting nurse unhooks the pump and removes the needle from the port Wednesday. On Monday 5/11 I do it all over again, provided I don't catch a cold [happened the last 2 times], You don't get chemo if You are already sick.

ALL OF YOU, get those colonoscopys. If You are 50 or over, or if ANYBODY in Your family has ever had a polyp at any age, by age 40 You are at risk.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 04-28-2009 12:32
I'm glad your  insurance has treated you better.  Sorry you continue to be sick though.  Hope you will mend.  My Dad had colon cancer.  They did manage to cure it.  He lived something like 23 years past that and then a different cancer took him home at 87.

I have heard so many stories that I had to get the colonoscopy.  I will get them even if I lose my insurance.  The polyp they took out was very small and benign.  I had a hard time getting them to tell me it was benign though.  They just said "see you in 5 years".  They have resisted giving me a copy of the pathology report etc etc etc... I think they do not want to say I am "clean"  due to liability reasons if it changes, on the other hand there is no risk in saying I am sick.  So, I will do as they say and wait 5 years before I worry again.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-29-2009 02:27
Good to hear it was benign, but I think 5 years is a risky timeframe. You could have another polyp as soon as next year, and they can become cancerous in as little as 3 years. You have the family history to back it up. If You have siblings, and cousins on Your Dad's side be sure THEY get checked too.

The colon cancer history in My family started with Me, the youngest of all the cousins. The oldest was diagnosed with colon cancer 1 year after I was at 62 years old, another had a large but non cancerous groth removed at 61, and another had a polyp removed at about 50.

I have been carrying health insurance on My own since '91. It isn't cheap, but it is worthwhile, no, it is INDISPENSABILE.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 04-29-2009 13:07 Edited 04-30-2009 13:32
They actually told me to come back in 3-5 years.  I suppose that will hedge the bet for the doctor.  My insurance company will only pay for it every 5 years I think. It costs about $3K on my own.  That is a lot to pay once a year, but then the alternative is not good either if it becomes a problem.  My sister waited until age 70 to get her first one! She has parinoid fears about them tearing her colon and stuff like that.  I think they found some benign polyps in her too.

I actually did the research into the Virtual Colonoscopy (X-ray) inspections.  They only cost about $600.  The insurance won't pay for them unless there is a doctor mandate or something like that.  The problem is they are only 90% reliable, and if they find something, a regular colonoscopy is required anyway.  I might be willing to pay $600 a year on my own just to be safe though.

P.S added
I just found out today they DID pay the last claim. They never emailed me to say my protest was settled though.  The total claim was for $3345, but they got the "discount" and only had to pay $1845 for it. I hope I can manage to get the discount if I ever lose my insurance.  My portion was ZERO!!!  So, you are correct. This is the type of thing they view as saving money in the long run.

P.S.S added
I just checked with my insurance company and they said I can get one colonoscopy a year now.  I am glad to hear that, but not sure I want to go through it every year.  I may compromise and go once every two years.  Glad we had this discussion though.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-01-2009 02:21
I think 2-3 years is a pretty safe bet. The Dr. who diagnosed Me had polyps removed surgicly when He was 35. He is now over 80. He told Me that He had no polyps for many years in a row, then while in His late 70s He had them 2 years in a row and none since. This Dr. was one of the first to understand the genetic tendency to polyps & resulting cancers. He encourages Me to spread the word about the 'scope job & prevention.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-01-2009 12:14
I am glad people are spreading the word.  If not for this and another welding blog I would not have gone in.  They had posted a long joke about the misery of the colonoscopy.  It nearly scared me out of doing it, but after reading the ensuing thread comments I went ahead anyway.  It was nowhere near as bad as I had expected.  The biggest hassle was finding a friend who could drive me to and from.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-04-2009 17:15
"The people who CAN PAY pay for those who CANNOT PAY."

And this would be different how?
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-04-2009 17:23 Edited 05-04-2009 17:50
It would not be different.  That was my point.  We can either pay by sharing through a national heath insurance tax rebate or we can pay through higher insurance and hospital costs.  It might be a case of 6 of one 1/2 a dozen of another if we reallly looked at the real expenses.
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-05-2009 16:36
Except that when you begin tallying the additional costs of government involvement - new agencies or additions to the old ones - six of one starts looking a whole lot bigger than the 1/2 dozen  of the other.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-05-2009 17:48 Edited 03-20-2014 08:46
"Except that when you begin tallying the additional costs of government involvement - new agencies or additions to the old ones - six of one starts looking a whole lot bigger than the 1/2 dozen of the other."
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But that assumes that the government is the insurance provider.

Most of the talk lately is to continue to have the majority of insurance provided by private enterprise.  If the government is involved in some kind of mandate to get every working citizen insured, it might only help by lowering medical costs for those who can least afford to pay for them, and by reducing the cost everyone pays for medical insurance.

Would you change the government mandate that all drivers carry their own private insurance?  That is a good example of government involvement that has helped more than it has hindered.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-06-2009 04:07 Edited 05-06-2009 04:11
A big part of the problem is that GOOD insurance coverage is a really large percentage of the total cost of a low wage employee.

My cousin's kid became diabetic when She was just a little too old to be covered as a dependant under His plan at work. She had a job that provided "health insurance" but it only covered a few thousand per year, not nearly enough to cover Her bills. She ended up going on some sort of Govt. assistance.

I pay about 6K/year for major medical for Myself with a 3K out of pocket/year limit, esentially no perscription coverage. This puts My total medical cost at about 10K/year.

True enough, as an individual, I don't get any price breaks.

The estimates I have seen tend to suggest that the cost for someone like Me will actually increase slightly with "universal health care".

I am in favour of anything that will lower MY costs, but I don't go allong with anything that increases them. Only time will tell.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-06-2009 16:06 Edited 05-07-2009 12:16
"I am in favour of anything that will lower MY costs, but I don't go allong with anything that increases them. Only time will tell."
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I agree.  The problem is I am against universal care at the present because I have a good employer plan.  I will admit that if I lose this job and face a period of no insurance that I would be in favor of having universal care.

It is a real tug of war.  The 50% of people with insurance do not want the gov't involved, and the 50% without insurance want any help they can get.  If I was forced to work at Wal-Mart for $7 with no medical insurance I would be begging for help with my $350 a month in current expenses.  We see the same thing with the minimum wage.  The people who earn a living wage are against living wage laws that would help minimum wage earners because they are afraid their money won't go as far.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-07-2009 03:08
That 50% without insurance fall into several groups. Those who flat out can not afford it Those who just plain screwed up and left their coverage lapse [that is really easy to do, even if You are TRYING to maintain coverage]. And those who would rather spend the money on something else. In My opinion, health coverage is up there along with food, clothing & shelter.

I knew a lot of people, particularly when I was boating who figured "living a healthy lifestyle" was a substitute for coverage, I have met those who claim they "can not afford to get sick". None of these help any when the sh-t hits the fan. Accidents & illness can happen to anybody.

I have made some choices in My life that were less than ideal, but I am damn glad I carried health insurance on My own after I left the plant. I never had a claim in the first 12 years, and back in the early '90s the premium wasn't real bad at $1000-1200/year. The cost went up every year, and when I was diagnosed with cancer and actually started USING My insurance, they dropped the "healthy customer discount" or what ever they called it.

I make sure I pay that premium early every time, because I doubt I could get another policy with My pre-existing conditions. From a business perspective, I think My insurer would rather I didn't renew. While they made money on Me in the past, they have been loosing big time for the last 5 years and will in the future. That is the gamble they take in busness. An individual shouldn't take that risk.

In the US the law says You cannot be denied medical service due to inability to pay, but with an ongoing illness You get  better care as a paying customer.
Parent - - By michael kniolek (***) Date 05-19-2009 01:42
Who really Thinks that any1 of us will Qualify to recieve any assistance for healthcare?
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 05-19-2009 02:00
If I keep up on my Union dues I should get a $250 dollar death benefit,OOPS that would not be healthcare related. Would it?
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-19-2009 02:05
Like YOU are going to benifit a whole lot from that...

I had a life insurance policy for a while, but after I realized I wasn't going to have any dependants, I cashed it in.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-19-2009 02:01
A change in tax laws to allow those of Us who buy Our own to deduct the premiums from Our earned income is a posibility. If You are in a company health care plan, You are paying for insurance with pre tax income. When You buy Your own, You pay with after tax income. This comes up for discussion from time to time, but hasn't gotten anywhere yet.

They created something on Bush's watch called the "health savings account", I don't know anything about it.
Parent - By uphill (***) Date 05-19-2009 10:36
Anything would help, The health savings account was a non taxable saving account to be used for paying deductables and perscriptions. Never knew anyone who did it. I have to pay upwards of $2500 per year out of pocket for my coverage if I get ill. Lately damned if I have the extra.  There will never be a plan that is fair for all, the haves will always be picking up the have-nots. Thats OK as long as the people who truly need help are the ones getting it.  We all have to pitch in some, after all its what makes this the Land of Opertunity and Land of the Free.

I think having coverage for the people who dont pay would help the prices of healthcare charges. Sort of like stopping the shoplifting would save us at the till.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-19-2009 11:26
I have one of those health savings accounts.  It saves me about 20-25% a year on my co-pays.  I am glad I have it.  The hard part is that you only get to declare a deduction total amount ONE time at the end of the year prior to the "plan year". 

During the next year, the insurance companies automatically get co-pays from the tax-free savings account which is funded by payroll deductions.  The problem is if you run out of money for the year, like I did this year, you are SOL.  The only way to increase the contribution for a given plan year is to get married or have a kid. 

If you have extra money left over at the end of the year, it gets rolled over to the next year, but there is only a 3-month grace period where it may be used.  If it is not all used up, you FORFEIT the remains!!! 

It does not do any good if you get sick and have a lot of unexpected expenses, but if you just have regular prescriptions and annual physicals on a predicted basis, then you can save money that way.  It would be a lot better if they would just give the tax deduction straight up for all co-pays planned or unplanned, but then they would not be making a profit from the left over money!!! LOL
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Universal Healthcare

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