I need to drop the hammer on purchasing a Pulsed MiG setup. I need to make 42 tanks from 11 GA. 316L stainless with over 750" of corner to corner welds on each tank.
In the past we have just welded them up with TIG as the quantity's were usually less than 5 tanks per order, but the shear size of this order dictates a faster process.
I never really took much time to investigate pulse welding. After purchasing an MK systems Inverter system with WAY WAY WAY to many adjustable variables I ended up hooking the Cobramatic feeder up to a VI-400 linde. I Did demo a Pulse on Pulse Lincoln back in 2002 and wasn't that impressed.
But people im talking to say its come along way and that its really the way to go for my current fabrication need.
IM LOOKING FOR ANY INPUT!
Units im considering are the
Miller XMT 350-P
Lincoln Invertec 350 Advance Process
The other considerations are
Miller 350P
And so far the front runner the NEW Lincoln Power Wave C-300
Now thoughts on those considerations.
I will ultimately weld aluminum with a push pull setup so it needs to have that capability. And obviously Stainless steels particularly 304 and 316L and regular carbon steel with a traditional MiG gun.
I like the idea of the first two units the Miller XMT-350-P and Lincoln Invertec 350 Adv. process due to the fact that I can also use them to run an LN-25 in the field and lay down .072 Nr-232. But the fact that unless you equip either of these units with one of their own MiG feeder packages then its not going to be synergetic and thus MUCH more difficult to dial in. In the past anything that gave me grief got pitched (MK inverter)
I DO have a chance to buy a Miller 350P at half price of new slightly and lightly used with a fair amount of consumables and both MiG guns and thats a very attractive combo.
The machine that LOOKS like it might do the best for me is the new Lincoln Power Wave C300. I like the portability and size but I have had some bad luck with Lincoln inverters in the past and OTHER Lincoln new technology. so im very hesitant to drop darn near $6,000 on something that's brand new.
The synergetic property of dialing in the self contained feeders makes them seem like something that will transition nicely into my program without spending a considerable amount of time fiddling with to get right.
I DUG DEEP and got a HOT PRICE on 316L stainless and im 90% that the customer is going to drop the hammer on these. the min he gives the go ahead I need to also order a welder to have it online when the stainless arrives.
IM IN OVER MY HEAD. so any thoughts or comments are appreciated, and sorry for the long post
The Lincoln STT welding process or the new MIller Electric equivalent might be the answer for your needs for the Stainless Steel welding. The MK Cobra is the best choice for lot of welding, especially Aluminum. As for the dials and essential variables, ---- Learn to work with it! That is continuing education at it's best. Hire an expert to train you, and do some research and development on your own.
I test drove the Lincoln Powerwave C300... For the money this is by far the most versitile power supply... It also has the fastest change rate inverter made in America... It has some very special pulsation capabilities especially in the Vert-up position... I was truly blown away.
The Miller 350P is by far the best bang for the buck... Not quite as versatile as the C300 but also about half the cost. Both will run Push-pull or spool guns (the push pull quality is superb with both .035 and .045) If cosmetics with GMAW Aluminum are primary than the Lincoln Pulse-on-pulse is pretty slick. While the Miller does not have the pulse on pulse it still can do amazing GMAWP on thin aluminum, It just takes a bit more operator manipulation.
Not a fan of Miller XMT when it comes to GMAWP... for the price it has never been comparable with it's competition. 350P is a far better GMAW performer.
Joe makes a pretty good observation about the STT (Lincoln) and RMD (Miller).... However I don't know if the advanced short circuit is the best fit for stainless as thick as 11 ga... It may or may not get the excellent fusion that GMAWP would provide... The STT and RMD are great for very thin ga. stainless and open roots. But I would not spend money on STT or RMD until you saw your specific application "proven" to work in a demo.
I have a miller pipepro and love it but would rather have the new miller pipe works. With the pipe works you don't have to change leads, hoses, guns, ect just push a button and weld. Also the rmd root is best root process I have ever used. Have not welded alot of ss with it but did weld some dpss pipe i had in the scrap pile. didn't use a purge and it worked fine no sugar or color. But if price is a deal go with the 350mpa about the same pulse program just no rmd.
OH that's right I did ALSO demo the new pipe pro when it first came out. The RMD mode was the cats meow. All but 4 of these tanks will not have ANY fittings on them and then their actually square tube penetrations most are just open topped.
Plus we can manipulate them so that all welds are done in the flat and horizontal positions but their will be some V-UP welds. These will be single pass welds also.
The pipe pro is a sweet machine but I would need ALOT of pipe work to justify the $12K sticker.
Oh and it seems like the financing on the Lincoln stuff is much better also. But after a couple of Epic Failures with previous Lincoln innovations I'm still a bit hesitant to pull the trigger. Although my Vantage 500 is a sweet welding sum beach.
For all intensive purposes I can get that "LOOK" on aluminum with a spool gun and a Regular CV machine.
For a small fabricator this is a pretty sizable investment.
We have ss weldments in a similar application. After all the attempts, with our 350-P with .035 & .045 wire and various gas mixtures including hydrogen and SS flux core, the time spent in fit-up and the slightest varation in fitup we went back to the tig weld.
For us it was the hare and the tortoise. Hope someone has a mig solution.
Damn that's not what I wanted to hear SRA. were pretty fast at getting them setup and tacked proper for welding and rarely see any variances of fit up greater than 1/32"nd.
what would you say the main problem was? burn through, sugaring?
I can get a 350-P for basically 1/2 price. Its a trade in at my LWS but it makes me very hesitant as to WHY its a trade in?
the miller xmt is outstnding
I've used all of your choices and the invertec 350 is by far the best one for all of it's capabilities. Millers 350p is junk except for it's pulse capabilities and the XMT is nice for both pulse and GMAW-S, but neither are as good as the Invertec. Not only are the pulse capabilties of the Invertex outstanding, but the GMAW-S arc characteristics and adjustment are far superior then millers equipment. Don't get me wrong, I love Miller and I love Lincoln, but i'm a straight shooter and tell it like it is. You will be very pleased with the Invertec, I promise.
Which manufacturer is going to give the best support? Who can give you really good technical help? I would talk to both Lincoln and Miller and see if they can help with this specific application. Can they demo their equipment on a sample of your application at your location or nearby welding supply? I previously worked for large auto parts manufacturer and we got excellent detailed on site support from Lincoln.
Well I have had EXCELLENT!!! service from my Lincoln reps but the damn near 6K price is really making me think LONG and hard about this.
Through the years I have had to adapt to survive and the main gig is structural steel as all the industrial sheet metal left the area years ago. I Really want a new toy but now im getting cold feet as no one can actually say how well this will do in my application.
I Might have to pound on my Lincoln rep to see if he can drag one out for me to demo then pound him about buying that one at a demo price.
Hello Dualie, as many of the others have eluded to, go with the ones that will service you and your equipment needs as well. If your local dealer isn't real hip on getting something out to you for demo, then check to see how close the district Lincoln facility is, a lot of the time these district facilities are set-up with the latest and greatest stuff to provide hands-on support for their dealers and sales folks. They might be willing to allow you to bring some of your materials in to play with their machines on so that you can see for yourself firsthand if they will work for your particular situation. Mention this latter scenario to your local dealer if he doesn't have a particular machine combination readily available for you to work with locally. Just a little something to ponder. Best regards, Allan
The Miller 350P will only pulse with 0.035 and 0.045. The pluse programs are for those two wire sizes only. The parameters charts (for the 350P) do not even list 0.030 wire in the mig mode. I tried to run ( mig mode) 0.030 and never could get it adjusted, wire speed- voltage, to my liking. First tried 92-8, then 75-25. For thin stuff my Miller Passport with CO2 seems to weld better than the 350P, just could use more power.
Maybe it is just me but I have had occasional porosity problems with corner to corner welds in the pulse mode. Set it on mig mode and it zipped it right up, well down actually. I have not tried SS wire with the 350P.
One of the biggest problems with Short Circuit on thin materials with the 350P (or any new Miller GMAW) is that they come new from the factory with Bernard Centerfire consumables and no other choices... For Short Circuit GMAW especially on thin materials it is best for the contact tube to extend about 1/8" beyond the nozzel... But with Centerfire there is no adjusting.... We ended up switching to a different gun end setup so that we could move from Short Circuit with an extended tube to spray transfer with a recessed tube.
350P will not short circuit as well as it can with any gas as long as the Centerfire consumables are in play.
We discovered this after weeks of poor welds on new machines... We finally just slapped on a 15 year old Tweco #4 which has a sliding style nozzel and the problem was instantly resolved.
350P and other new inverters are also sensitive to solid wire quality in the short circuit mode... L56 Lincoln wire for quality is the bare minimum.. we had real problems with lesser wires. The Manganise to Silicon ratio in steel, solid wire for short circuiting is best @ 2 to 1, although there is a broad definition in A5 as far as constituants. When we looked at the certs for the various solid wires we found quite a range as far as that Mang/Silicon ratio went, and it really did make a noticable difference with how the each wire performed.
I totally agree about the cosumables Lawrence! I have my guys grind their nozzles and then file them so they're like factory again. ;-) They have a set of nozzles for each application they do so essential variable are not exceeded. What I don't like about the 350P in GMAW-S mode is that the inductance adjustment on the machine is basically just for looks. In other words, it doesn't have near the adjustment that others I have worked on do. The Invertec can be dialed for GMAW-S so nicely, it's ridiculus. It's the Formula 1 machine of GMAW-S welders .;-) It has all the other goodies to go along with it as well, so It gets a hgh ranking in my book for best all around machine.
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