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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Tacking procedure, B31.3 Help!!!
- - By jamesonbaxter Date 06-11-2009 13:29
  I have been a CWI for 6 years and been in welding for 11 years. I now have a new QC manager who is saying that code requires that a tacker needs to be coded for tacking, with a normal pipe test. I have allways worked with the understanding that if the tacks are removed then you do not have to be a welder operator. I do not have the welders to tack, and not weld. I do not have the employees who can pass a pipe test. I really need clarifaction on this code as far as tacking goes. The way I see it if you remove the tack, then the tack never existed. I cannot find that in code, but I have talked to several inspectors, CWI, and AWS represenatives that have all agreed with me. How do I get hard evedince to show my QC that it is not required, or am I wrong. Any info and or tips would be greatly appreciated. Jameson Baxter (CWI, CWS) Thank You
Parent - - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 06-11-2009 16:22 Edited 06-11-2009 16:35
Will try again.  Here are references from ASME B31.1 and B31.3 on the subject of tack welds.  First one (C) is from B31.3.  Second one (c) is from B31.1:
Parent - By jamesonbaxter Date 06-11-2009 16:28
Does that mean if we bridge tack then you dont need to be a qualified welder, if the tacks are removed?
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-11-2009 21:55
[deleted]
Parent - By jamesonbaxter Date 06-16-2009 16:03
  Is there something that states that in code, because I can not find it. I have good tackers, but they are along way off from being welders. And in our shop this issue just came up. I am trying to find out the proper way to be in compliance. I at least need a specfic test, and I just cant find it. even section 9 does not specifiy. To what extent do they need to be tested if they need to be tested. My preferance is to cut the tacks out, because that is what 90% of our welders do anyway. There is also a shortage of welders, so I dont have a pool to choose from to get my pipe tacke. I appreciate all the help and input you guys give me. Thank You
Parent - - By jamesonbaxter Date 06-11-2009 16:26
My fabrication code is B31.3, Iknow what b31.1 says and D1.1. B31.3 is not clear to me. If nothing else I interprate it to say I can come up with a in house procedure, and as long as the customer accepts that procedure then we are in complince.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-12-2009 01:56
Jameson,
Sorry to say I agree with your QC manager on this one.

B31.3 seems to be quite clear to me "Tack welds shall be made by a qualified welder or welding operator."
There is no way inexperienced and/or unqualified welders should be putting in root tacks. It is impossible to get the preps back to the original
dimensions when you have to "knife" a tack out. It is even worse when they have put excess penetration in and you have to somehow cut through it and hook the "dag" out through the root gap.
Bridge tacks can be almost as bad. While they leave the prep untouched/undamaged, if someone is inexperienced they can put arc strikes all around the bullets which can be just as detrimental.

However, why do you not qualify your welders with an all positional fillet weld test if they are unable to achieve an open groove pipe welding qualification. That way you satisfy the code, your manager is happy and hopefully you can see the ability of your welders before they go attacking the pipes and installing bridge tacks.

Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jamesonbaxter Date 06-16-2009 15:57
   What is the criteria for a all postion fillet weld tes for tacking. I cannot find a clear example of what kind of test there should be. B31.3 does say a welder or welding operator. But as far as I can tell it does not sy to what extent. Surely it doesnot need to be 6G pipe test?
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2009 17:21 Edited 06-16-2009 17:28
The code lists the minimum requirements that must be met. The contractor/manufacturer/installer/erector has to ensure the work they produce meets or is better than the  minimum requirements prescribed by the code. To that end they can devise a system that ensure compliance with the code which may apply in this case.

If the applicable code is unclear, I would propose a simple tacking test where a groove is prepared and the tacker welds it with the required weld size and length. Make sure they follow a WPS and they understand what the purpose of the WPS is and they know how to implement its requirements, i.e., proper filler metal, electrode storage, preheat, proper root opening is present after tacking, etc. If there is a requirement that the ends of the tack welds be "feathered" (tapered) by the applicable code (B31.3 high pressure for example) make that a part of the "test".

The tack weld test should be in test position(s) expected in production. I would propose a plate positioned in each of the four test positions, i.e., 1G, 2G, 3G, and 4G. Each plate test could consist of three tack welds, one at each end and one in the middle while maintaining the require root opening once the tacks are completed.

Visually examine the three tack welds, section them, and perform a macroscopic examinations to verify they are free of unacceptable conditions such as undercut, incomplete fusion, incomplete joint penetration, proper root opening, etc. As with any test, there should be a test record of who, what, when, and the results of the test.

Since this test is not included  or described in the applicable code, you should definitely document it as a test procedure that complete defines and describes the test, requirements, and results required.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-16-2009 23:36
jamesonbaxter,
Have a look at ASME IX
QW 303.2
QW 452.4
QW 461.6

You could do a 6G pipe to pipe fillet weld test as shown in QW 461.6.
Regards,
Shane
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Tacking procedure, B31.3 Help!!!

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