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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Welder Qualification for Sockets WElds
- - By liftedpowerstro (*) Date 05-11-2009 14:48
I've review my welder's Papers and I dont see anything it that says what he is qualified for... My question is is he qualified for welding socket welds?  Test Thickness is .432"      Range is F6 .864" Max    Test Diam.. is 6 5/8" Range 2 7/8" O.D. & Over... Does this mean he is only qualified to weld pipe with an OD of 2 7/8" and over?

My other welder's papers say they welded  2 3/8" pipe and then the range says 1" o.d. and above......

But bottom line is how do i determine if he's (first welders stats) is qualified to do socket welds...
I dont see anything on fillet welds on the welders papers.....
or would this whole situation fall back on the WPS? (I'm thinking this is the answer)

Thanks,
Liftedpowerstroke
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 05-11-2009 16:17
Most codes I've seen, groove welds also qualify for fillets.
Parent - - By dlmann (**) Date 05-11-2009 18:09
It looks like you have a welder qualification record that does not record all the information you need.  This sounds like ASME IX.  Sometimes you need to read in between the lines if you can't send them back.

Two paragraphs in Section IX can answer your questions about fillet welds qualified by groove weld tests and groove-weld diameter limits  QW-452.3 and  QW-452.6 

You asked;  "Does this mean he is only qualified to weld pipe with an OD of 2 7/8" and over?"  Yes for groove pipe welds. QW-452.3 Over 2-7/8" outside diameter qualified minimum 2-7/8 to unlimited.  QW-452.6 any groove weld of any thickness qualifies fillet welds of all bass material thicknesses, fillet sizes and diameters.

"My other welder's papers say they welded  2 3/8" pipe and then the range says 1" o.d. and above......"  Same thing as above except QW-452.3 test coupon 1" to 2-7/8" qualifies 1" minimum to unlimited.

I would say yes to socket welds.  No limit on diameters or fillet sizes.  Don't forget the other essentials such as base metals, filler metal, process, backing gas, position, uphill/downhill, etc.......

Regards Donnie Mann.

Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-11-2009 22:12
Donnie,
As far as I am aware a socket abutting a run pipe is a groove weld, not a fillet weld.
If I am mistaken and you are talking about the branch pipe into the socket I apologise as yes, that is a fillet.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By dlmann (**) Date 05-12-2009 02:24 Edited 05-12-2009 02:29
Shane,
Whenever I hear socketweld, I think of something along the lines of ASME B31.3 2006, Para 328.5.2 Fillet and Socket Welds and Fig. 328.5.2C, Minimum Welding Dimensions for Socket Welding Components Other Than Flanges.  A while back we ran some new condensate piping that had over 1500 socketwelds.  Just simple gravity drain lines as it were.  I got deep in the subject of socketwelds as defined by my above references.  There's a brand name of "sock-o-let" that a lot of people go by. 

I'm having trouble visualizing your terminology "socket abutting a run pipe".  Would this be the same as a "weld-o-let"?  

Regards, Donnie Mann
Attachment: socketweld.doc (68k)
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-12-2009 03:42
Sorry Donnie, my misunderstanding.
I was thinking he was meaning the weld where the sockolet / weldolet joins on to the main / run pipe and not the true fillet weld of the sockolet to branch pipe as shown in your drawing.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By liftedpowerstro (*) Date 06-11-2009 16:01
I am refering to the sock-o-let or weld-o-let that fits to the main run of pipe...
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 06-12-2009 02:42
liftedpowerstro

its a groove weld with fillet weld reinforcement.

Regards
Joey
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 06-12-2009 02:58
In addition, you can refer to QW-451-4 (fillet welds qualified by groove weld test) and QW-452.3 (groove weld diameter limits)
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 05-12-2009 16:15
You  have  to  be  carefull on  this  one  -

ASME  Sect IX     QW 452 .3 / .4   have  specific  criteria  for  diameters  under  1 "

We  had  to  test   4  specimens   to  get  the  #  of  inches  in  a    2.375 "  specimen
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 06-11-2009 16:45 Edited 06-11-2009 19:50
May   I   ask   why   you   have   a   huge   distance   between   your   words   ?
Sorry, I have just seen a few of your posts, and I really want to ask...

3.2
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 06-11-2009 19:27
making up for no space in the name??? :)
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 06-11-2009 19:49
LOL :)
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 06-12-2009 20:30
I  generally  have  my  space  bar  set on   two   because  I write  a  lot  of  material subject  to 

review  and  by  double   spacing   people  can  write  notes  and  edit   a  lot more  easily  -

It's  just  a personal  preference  -
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 06-13-2009 05:48
Cool, Thanks :)

3.2
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 07-09-2009 15:27
Shane,
So if it is grove weld then the weld would have to come out flush to the widest portion of the sockolet?  I'm having trouble justifying put that much weld into that wide of a space.  We have 2" sockolets into a 3" Sch 40 S/S pipe.  After 4 passes, which I think is enough, they are calling for it to be filled out more to where the weld will come out nearly the top quarter of the pipe.

Any suggestions from anyone.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-09-2009 22:06 Edited 07-09-2009 22:09
Manufacturers  qualify their "integrally reinforced fittings" and demonstrate they develop sufficient strength as required by standards. I believe MSS SP-97 may be the appropriate standards to look at.

As such, each manufacturer will provide the information required as to how much weld is required to develop the strength of their fitting. It is not based on the operating pressure of the system, but on the full strength of the fitting. Thus, it makes no difference if the system is for low vacuum or high pressure, if the integrally reinforced fitting is used, it has to be welded in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

A standard half coupling can be used under certain conditions, in which case it is beveled, welded with a complete joint penetration groove weld and "topped off" with the reinforcing fillet weld. The size of the reinforcing fillet weld is dependent on which piping code you are working with, typically 3/16 or 1/4 inch.

Here's a cut I took from the catalog of a manufacturer. It will answer most of your questions. Bear in mind 1/2 of the sketch is of the joint parallel to the run pipe and the other half is perpendicular to the run pipe.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 07-10-2009 11:14
Thanks.  That is a fine diagram.  I wish they were using those types of sockolets.  They are welding the square bottomed ones so there's a lot of space between the radius of the pipe and the sockolet.  So their bosses want them to weld it out nearly flush to the edge of the sockolet.  IMO its WAY to much weld, but that's what they want then that's what they get.  The pipefitters get paid by the hour and not the weld so they don't care.

Its the first time I've delt with these fittings and it seemed to me to be overkill to put that much weld metal on them.  OH well.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-09-2009 22:09
Bryon,
Go to the bonneyforge website or keep searching on here, this subject has been dealt with extensively.
You do not fill them right out to the outer edge, generally it is just a bit more than the thickness of the run pipe.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 07-10-2009 11:17
Thanks Shane, I'll go check that out.  They are putting them on 3" sch 40 SS which is .214.  I had him weld it in with 4 passes and there was, I would guess, at least a 1/4 deep weld on there.  But it still wasen't as flush of a weld as the boss wants them to put in.  So I had him build it out more so now there's probably 1/2 in of weld depth now.  As you can imagine there was some distortion going on too.  :-)
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-10-2009 12:51
Bryon,
If you are the clients rep you need to talk to the project engineer and find out how much weld he requires.
You are working with s/s and excessive weld on weldolets / sockolets will turn the run pipe into a banana.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 07-10-2009 13:12
Thanks.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-10-2009 13:29
The purpose of the integrally reinforced fitting is to replace the material in the run pipe that was removed to make the hole for the branch. It reinforces the run pipe. The piping codes allow small branch fitting to be used without reinforcement up to a certain size provided it is less than a specified ratio of the diameter of the branch to run pipe. Beyond that, reinforcement is required. How the reinforcement is achieved is the designer's problem to resolve. Hence the integrally reinforced fittings; the manufacturer has done the calculations and the testing to verify the design results in a joint that does not weakened the system. It provides an option to the designer and provides the erector with a "quick" method of meeting the code requirements.

The integrally reinforced fitting only serves it function properly if it is welded per the manufacturer's requirements. Different manufacturer's have slightly different designs, hence slightly different welding requirements. It should be noted that the fittings are not typically ready to weld as received. Most fitting fit a range of run pipe diameters. If the run pipe is on the small end of the diameter range the root opening along the cheeks (sides) will be open while the heels (and toe) will be tight. Conversely, if the run pipe is on the larger end of the diameter range the root opening on the cheeks (sides) will be tight while the heels (and toe) are open. It is required by most manufacturer's specifications that the installer/erector fit the branch fitting to the run pipe with a uniform root opening by grinding the fitting to fit the run pipe. Unfortunately, it is a rare occasion that the mechanic (fitter) or the inspector has taken the time to fit/inspect the integrally reinforced branch fitting as it is supposed to be. It is rarer yet that I see the IRBF properly fitted and welded. What I typically find is a partial joint penetration groove weld that consists of a nice "root pass" but little else.

While we're on the subject, we should look at the size of the fillet weld used to join the branch to the socket fitting. Each piping code requires a different fillet weld size. Most piping drawings do not specify weld sizes. It is left up to the welder to deposit the required fillet weld size. Since it is not rare to encounter field crews that haven't a clue as to what piping code they're working to, it isn't uncommon to find the fillet welds are undersized. A quick look at the various piping codes will clearly show either the size of the fillet leg required or the theoretical throat dimension of the fillet weld. When the throat is specified by the applicable code, the detailer or welder has to multiply the TT by 1.414 to obtain the proper leg dimension. Once again, if the welder isn't cognizant of what specific pipe code applies, it is reasonable to assume the weld size is not per code as well.   

The most common refrain I hear from the field crew (or shop crew for that matter) is, "It's only pipe." or "It's a low pressure system." Then when pressed they can't tell me what the operating pressure or temperature is nor can they tell what specific code their working to beyond "ASME". Thank you "Lord" for safety factors.

I apologise for the rant, but the situation seems to be deteriorating with time. Smaller less qualified companies are entering the field. Owners, usually the least knowledgeable about code requirements, need to be wary of hiring the lowest priced contractor and they need to check the qualifications of the individual inspecting the pipe on their behalf. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 07-10-2009 13:52
It was a fine rant.  Thanks.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Welder Qualification for Sockets WElds

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