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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / formula for heat input
- - By dmilesdot (**) Date 06-15-2009 18:52
Is there a way to add preheat into the formula for heat input? The formula that everyone works with is amps/volts/travel speed and a constant, but what about figuring in the preheat?
Thanks
dave
Parent - - By PhilThomas (**) Date 06-16-2009 00:01
The term "heat input" is misleading, since what is actually being calculated with the standard formula is "energy input" as the result is expressed in kilojoules per inch (or mm).  More clearly stated, it is the electrical energy supplied by the welding arc to the workpiece.

A better concept - with regards to controlling microstructure and thus mechanical properties - is cooling rate, but it is a more difficult parameter to control.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-16-2009 00:17
Dave,
The preheat temperature is the end result of the equation, it has no bearing on the actual heat input (or energy input as Phil has stated).
You take the type of material to be welded, the combined thickness of the materials to be welded, the heat input and put those into an equation and the result is the preheat temperature.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-16-2009 16:41
Shane,
Huh?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2009 17:04 Edited 06-16-2009 19:15
Hey there Shane, I need to know the equation your are referring to. I haven't seen or heard of it before you mentioned it. Help us out buddy, pal, friend. We need to know what you know.

Best regards -Al ;)
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 06-16-2009 20:23
That sounds an awful lot like the graphs at the end of D1.1 for determining preheat based on carbon equivalent, thickness, and heat input.  At one of the places I worked the guy who had been in the industry for many years had this cardboard wheel that would calculate preheat based on those three factors.  Pretty cool little tool.  Now that I think about it, that's something I should probably track one down. 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2009 23:27
Lincoln sells the "wheel preheat calculator" I believe. I have one kicking around the office somewhere. I believe the preheats listed in AWS are more conservative if my memory is correct.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-16-2009 23:48
MMyers,
The carbon equivalent of the steel is part of the equation.

Jeff / Al,
The Welding Technology Institute of Australia has put out a Technical Note 1 entitled " The Weldability of Steels" and it gives a relatively easy way to calculate required preheat.
I do not have a copy with me but this is a link to an excerpt from it,
http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/go/howto/determine-xlerplateandreg-weldability
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2009 23:59
Thanks Shane.

I've never seen an equation where numbers alone are plugged into the equation to derive a value for preheat. Usually there is a table associated with the calculation that lists the preheat.

As noted by another respondent, AWS D1.1 has an alternative means of determining preheat. The equation is used to calculate the carbon equivalency, then a diffusible hydrogen level is selected based on welding process and electrode type, and then a table is consulted that lists the recommended preheat based on joint restraint, base metal thickness, and the grouping based on H and Ce. It is a multi-step process, but it is useful when the chemistry is known, but the material specification isn't.

I would be interested in a single equation that can determine preheat . It would come in handy in my line of work.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-17-2009 03:34
Hello Shane;

You folks from the "land down under" have it so easy. They did the work for you and there's no number crunching involved. Now only if I only had to contend with that manufacturer's base metals.

Best regards - Al ;)
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-17-2009 04:54
Hello Al,
I think you may find some of them popping up in the codes sometime in the future.
Jon20013 did a lot of work a while back on getting various Australian steels approved by ASME.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 06-17-2009 12:33
Ok let me go a little deeper into my original question.  We have a minimum Kilojule requirement for welding weathering steel.  35kj for .375 to .75 and 50 kj for material over .75.  Some of our fabricators have trouble meeting this requirement.  On a typical SAW PQR all of the mechanical tests are within our specs but the kj is off by some amount. (usually low) An FCAW PQR doesnt even come close to meeting this requirement. Kilojules have to do with electrical energy input and how it relates to heat input, and heat input relates to cooling rates as does preheat.  So shouldnt there be a way to increase preheat on a given pqr to offset the lower kj from the electrical formula?  Is there something I am missing?
Dave
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 06-17-2009 13:11 Edited 06-17-2009 13:15
Dave

Back in 1991 / 1992 or so, I did some computations, assembled some literature and sent it all in with a request in to NYSDOT, to waive the heat input requirement from the Arc and give me credit for the 250 degree preheat.  Ray Stieve and Fred Navaretta looked at it, and said "Nice Try, NO".  I had a customer that had thousands of feet of overhead weld to do, and I wanted to mechanize it with FCAW.  (5/16" overhead Cover Plate Welds).

As it turned out I could control the puddle and maintain a decent weld profile if I could weld at 44kJ, but not with 44.1 or greater heat input. 

Warren Alexander told me that he chose that heat input level because he didn't like FCAW and that heat input level made it impossible to use.  I explained this to Fred, but still "NO".

Note:  At the time, NYSDOT would waive the 250 degree minimum preheat requirement for elastomeric bearing sole plates, and weld 50kJ heat input requirements because the elastomer separated at 200 degrees.  (So, it was not unheard of to waive the heat input requirement!)

Joe Kane
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 06-17-2009 13:43
Joe, it would seem to me that with the differences in arc energy between SAW and FCAW that those numbers are not applicable to FCAW.  I talked to Warren about the Kj requirements and he said it was for "hardenablity issues".  end quote.  At the time those numbers were arrived at the material was 588, now with the improvements to A709W Im just not sure that the hardening would still be an issue that couldnt be controled with preheat.
dave
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 06-17-2009 21:12
Dave

When I asked him about FCAW in the middle 80s he admitted that he had based his dislikes based on the old Linde FC707 and FC727, as well as some gas less Flux cored electrodes.  Hardenability was only an issue for some of the gas less electrodes.  The issue he quoted me for the Linde products was flux voids and some properties on the FC 707 product.

By the time I was talking to him about it, the newer Alloy Rods E71 T-1 Dual Shield II 70 and 71 were well established with very good properties.  Warren admitted that these data sheets looked good, but he still didn't like FCAW.

Lincoln had a downhill pipe electrode, NR206, which had Charpys equivalent to E7018, and other properties better than E7018, and he wouldn't still hear of it.

I personally take what he says with a dose of bitter salts.  He is a great man, and a boundless, tireless Committeeman, but he seems to me to be narrow minded and obstinate when it comes to welder qualification testing, the NYSSCM, UT technology and what processes should be used for welding different bridge components.  He was reportedly a good E-7018 welder.  He once told me he could pass his own test any day of the week.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-17-2009 13:34
Dave,
As far as I am aware there is no relation between heat input and cooling rates as you have noted.
Amps x volts divided by travel speed.
You could have the same heat input with a preheat of 50 F or 500 F.
If you increased the preheat (it would have to be a major increase) to make the weld puddle "flow" easier then your travel speed would increase and that would have the opposite effect of lowering your heat input.
I think your best idea is to investigate whether your companies requirements are actually realistic (or an engineer has just plucked numbers) or whether your contractors need to requalify their procedures with different amps/volts/travel speed to satisfy the requirements.
Good luck with your endeavours,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-17-2009 20:40
Is the heat input quoted a minimum or maximum value? I usually see the heat input as a maximum and it usually applies to low alloy quench and tempered steels.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 06-18-2009 11:46
Al

The NYSSCM requirement for A588 steels are minimum heat input values. 

Joe Kane
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-18-2009 02:16
This is a good read, this thread.

Shane, one small correction; I worked with Bluescope steel to get some australian steels listed into AWS B2.1 document (of which, it's SWPS may be used in ASME works as well as some AWS codes).  Walt Sperko had taken the lions share of getting some of the australian steels into ASME, unfortunately they didn't seem all that interested in taking on the structural steels.
Parent - - By Eutectic (**) Date 06-30-2009 10:43 Edited 06-30-2009 10:48
Good morning to all,

Ther is a formula for calcualting the temperature ina plate at a distance x. taking into acount the preheat and the heat input. It relates to the cooling rate of the material through the so called  800-500 degC temperature envelope. (Delta T800DegC to 500DegC) This is where most metallurgical cahnges takes place. It is heat flow equations (Rosenthal's equations) for thick and thin plates respecticly.

Ill try and copy this from my notes: (From Madeleine du Toit, University of Pretoria

BS EN1011-1:1998 also reference the graphs mentioned earlier for determining preheat requirements.
Attachment: Rosenthal2.JPG (133k)
Attachment: Rosenthal3.JPG (23k)
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 06-30-2009 11:45 Edited 06-30-2009 11:47
Evening all,
I was going to post a new subject on this issue but Eutectic has mentioned BS EN 1011-1 so thought I would add to the topic.
As far as I am aware the formula for calculating heat input has been around for years and it has been recognised world wide.
Amps x volts x 60 divided by travel speed x 1000 = Kj/mm. There are numerous variants depending on the country such as J/in, J/mm, Kj/sec etc but the basic formula has always been the same. This formula was also noted in documentation from TWI (The Welding Institute) as recently as 2008.
Now the BS EN committee have decided to throw what appears to be a spanner in the works by deciding they know better than their predecessors.
BS EN 1011-1 2009 states that Amps x volts divided by travel speed is actually the "Arc Energy". Then you have an efficiency factor for various processes (I think 0.6 for GTAW and 0.8 for SMAW).You multiply the Arc Energy x Efficiency Factor = Heat Input.
This is now referenced in TWI documentation so I presume it won't be long before it finds it's way into various welding standards.
That means you will have two totally different heat inputs for the same weld depending on whether you are working to American or British / European codes.
It shouldn't bother Americans too much as BS EN is rarely used in the US but ASME / API and AWS are regularly used in the UK / Europe so there could be fun and games for their Welding Engineers.
What ever happened to "If it aint broke, don't fix it" ?????
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By dmilesdot (**) Date 06-30-2009 14:48
What would be the EF for FCAW? and how is EF determined?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-30-2009 15:12
The efficiency factors are not new, but they are typically ignored by many welding standards.

The heat input equation is a means of getting a "warm fuzzy" feeling that the welding process is providing sufficient energy to retard the cooling rate to prevent a hard microstructures in the heat affected zone or weld or to ensure the cooling rate isn't so slow undesirable microstructures develop in the HAZ and weld.

One current thread is addressing the minimum heat input for a weathering steel, i.e., ASTM A588, as required by the NY State Steel Construction Manual (for bridge construction), which I noted is not something I typically encounter. Typically the concern is with materials such as quench and tempered steels or steels enhanced by thermal mechanical means. These materials can have degraded metallurgical and/or mechanical properties in the HAZ when excessive heat input is used. The reduction in mechanical properties is associated with the increased width and the changes in microstructure that may occur in the HAZ with retarded cooling rates. In conjunction with the heat input is a concern for the control of the interpass temperatures which can also be detrimental to the mechanical and chemical properties of some of the same steels (and others such as austenitic stainless steel).

The efficiency factors, based on welding process, is established by experimentation. The factor also varies with different welding conditions such as bead on plate or beads deposited in grooved joints. At best the efficiency factor is an approximation. When the absence of the "efficiency factor" is ignored, the heat input equation will provide a value that is higher than the actual heat input and provides a "buffer" that ensures the maximum heat input values are not exceeded, i.e., a built in safety factor if you will. This is of value when working with the TM or quenched and tempered steels as mentioned before. However, provided the requirements are based on rational reasoning and not personal prejudices,  it could conceivably lead to "problems" when working with welding standards such as the NYSCM which requires a minimum heat input.  As long as everyone uses the same equations that were used to establish the requirements, the results should be similar.

The heat input equation is simply another tool used by the welding engineer as is the carbon equivalent equation. They are based on empirical data collected by experimentation and then generalized so they can be used for general applications. When they are used in a logical manner, they provide the welding engineer with information that can be used to predict whether the proposed welding procedure is viable or not. The engineer has to recognize when the information the equations provide is pertinent to the material and job conditions encountered. Any engineer that blindly uses the equations without understanding the ramifications can expect problems.

The direction taken by researchers is to fine tune the tools available to welding engineers to yield more predictable results. There will be mistakes made and there will be some unexpected results that will be investigated to provide even better tools and data that will only be as good as the information and assumptions used by the engineer.

If there is anything I learned in school it is that the more you know, the more questions you ask before responding to the question. If you follow the forum, as I know you do, you will note that many of the most reasoned answers come only after several additional questions about the specific material, application, loading conditions, joint type, etc. are answered by the individual that posted the original question.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 07-01-2009 11:50
To cut to the chase when a Welding Engineer has to develop a welding procedure where the design requirement is low hardness and a toughness requirement for a specified service condition how does he balance/arrive at preheat requirement and heat input from the arc? Now there's the rub!
The two must be interelated but I have never seen anything on this. 
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-01-2009 12:30 Edited 07-01-2009 12:34
The preheat isn't used to control the size of the HAZ, only to ensure the cooling rate is slow enough to prevent the formation of a hard microstructure. This is a separate issue from toughness. A certain amount of ductility is needed to provide toughness, i.e., hard, brittle microstructures in the weld or HAZ will not promote toughness. So, if toughness is required when welding carbon and high strength low alloy steels, some preheat is required, but not excessively high preheat. The minimum preheat specified by the applicable code is typically sufficient to prevent cracking, but not so high as to reduce toughness when those requirements are a factor.

Not all service conditions adversely affect toughness. As the material thickness becomes greater and as the service temperature becomes lower, toughness becomes more problematic. Most welding standards don't become concerned with toughness unless the service temperature drops below some threshold temperature as defined by the applicable code or standard. For thick materials it can be as high as 70 to 80 degrees, with thinner materials the threshold maybe below 30 degrees. Many steels experience a transition from ductile to brittle failure modes around 30 degrees F (a generalization). Rolling practices, chemistry, and welding procedures influence the toughness which can only be as good as the base metal/filler metal you start with. In other words, if the base metal has a low (or no) toughness requirement or the filler metal has a low (or no) toughness requirements, there is little reason to worry about the toughness of the weld or HAZ as long as it is as good as the weak link, i.e., BM or FM. Some base metal specifications and filler metal classifications are not required to meet toughness requirements, therefore the engineer has to select the proper materials if toughness at "low" service temperatures at a factor.

As for the interrelationship between preheat/interpass temperature and arc energy (heat input), it has to do with cooling rates, microstructure, and grain size. That is delving into the subject a little deeper than I am able to go. Stephan or Gerald may be able to provide some insight on those relationships. I simply go to my references to see what information is provided or I look to the manufacturer to see if they have any recommendations. Then it's a crap shoot, use my best judgement to develop a preliminary WPS, weld and monitor the welding of the test plate, test the resulting samples, and hope for the best. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-01-2009 13:07
The answer is testing.
There is an interelationship. But it varies greatly depending upon the material in question.
We have to understand what toughness really is, especially when considering the Charpy test. Its not a 'real' material property.
We have arbitrarily (based upon extensive research as to why the Liberty ship hulls were cracking in north atlantic cold) decided that for quick cheap testing we can determine some material response that can be used to develope viable procedures. To get closer to 'real' material properties you need to utilize something like the CTOD test where equations can be generated from the results that can then be tied into design criteria.
Also, toughness, as measured by the charpy is not necesarily opposed to strength or hardness. A tempered martensitic microstructure can demonstrate far more toughness than a microstructure of highly ductile polygonal ferrite.
It also depends on whether you test for impact strength or lateral expansion.
By the time you factor in microstructure, grain size, element distribution and volume percent, low melt eutectic impurities, material thickness (related to not only biaxial and triaxial fracture regimes but through thickness cooling rates as well), welding process, arc density, heat input, the only answer can be testing, testing, testing.
So, the info your looking for is out there, But its dispersed and huge.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-02-2009 16:46
Good points on the complexities involved when toughness is a concern.

Minor changes, considered to be insignificant by many, can proved to have major influences on the results of toughness testing.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-02-2009 17:14
Complexities are why we have welding engineers and why there ain't no cookbooks out there.
Though some believe we should have more Betty Crockers on the code committees.
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