Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Block welding
- - By Richman (**) Date 07-21-2009 09:41
Some Welding requirements I encounter in projects requires all welding joints shall be made by completing each layer before succeeding layers area deposited. Block welding is not prohibited. 

Is there any effect on welding or on the joints being welded if welders did block welding specially on large bore heavy wall stainless(SS) and low temperature carbon steel (LTCS)piping?
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-21-2009 12:20
Richman,
For some materials (definitely s/s, not sure about LTCS) the maximum interpass temp is critical.
If you are blocking something out you are running layer over layer in a small area so you will have to be be waiting after each run for it to cool down below the maximum IPT before you can put in the next layer.
Whereas if you are running a layer over the full circumference of the pipe you do not have to stop after each electrode. You only have to check and confirm IPT before running the next layer so the heat is spread evenly around the whole pipe and not in a small area.
Hope I have explained that OK,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 07-21-2009 16:23
distortion?
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-21-2009 17:06 Edited 07-21-2009 17:08
There is an effect. But it sorta depends on the meaning of the word effect. If by effect you mean a change from what the weld would be like if you didn't block weld, certainly.
As johnny pointed out, there will be a change in distortion pattern.
There will be a change in stress pattern commensurate with that.
As Shane pointed out you may have a severe change in your approach to production when you have IP controls. Which is perhaps the best argument for not doing it.
But if you mean something detrimental to the weldment. I think this really becomes a difficult argument to sustain from a practical point of view. Except maybe for some specialized and severe services.
If there is evidence that block welding has contributed to failures I would like to see it.
And, how severe of block welding are we talking about. 2 passes one side and then 4 passes the next? Or going all the way to the cap before beginnng the other side?
If we are talking of distortion this becomes more of a dimensional tolerance issue not necessarily a weldment viability issue. And sometimes block welding can actually help.
It is my opinion that block welding is prohibited for essentially the same reason as not getting two butt welds too close together. Nobody really knows why it shouldn't be done (or at least very few do) but the prohibition keeps getting copied and pasted into spec after spec because it seems like it should be bad practice.
Having said all this, I don't think block welding in excess is a good idea. Go figure.
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 07-22-2009 04:49
Block welding I'm talking about is the Welder welding going all the way to the weld cap before starting the other side.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 07-22-2009 06:10
I would imagine it would create thermal stress.

3.2
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 07-22-2009 10:15
With this type of welding does it create martensitic on the base/weld metal during block welding or not especially on Stainless steel?  And incase the line requires NDT, what type of NDT we need to apply to make sure the weld itself has no problem.

I cannot found any explanations that block welding is not acceptable on ANSI B31.3 and ASME, can somebody give me information where to get this subject above is not acceptable?
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 07-22-2009 10:56
Richman,

First of all, martensite is not created during welding, it happens during the cooling phase - unless it's martensitic stell such as P91 and X20 :)
Most SS don't become martensitic, regardless of what you do.

NDT: Are you now talking about methods such as RT, UT, MT and PT?
That's a hole different game and not related to any welding sequence, however an undesired welding sequence could create LOF depending on the thickness of the joint.

I have never seen any restrictions on "block welding" other that common sence tells me it's not the optimal way of welding. I can imagine that most codes has written something like: Welding sequence can not have a negative effect of the completed weld....or something like that.

Maybe some pictures would help us to fully understand your problem/question as I must admit I am a bit confused now.

3.2

3.2
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-22-2009 11:19
Richman,
It sounds suspiciously like you are trying to justify block welding after the fact.
It may not be in any codes - it is just common sense.
If you welded one side fully and it was big enough diameter you may not have exceeded the maximum IPT so your mechanical / metallurgical properties may be alright. What was the diameter ?
However, distortion, especially with s/s is your other major problem.
You always try and weld evenly around an axis to avoid distortion. If you fully weld one side it is going to shrink and distort - whether it will return to straight when you fully weld the other side is the million dollar question. I would hazard a guess - No.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 07-23-2009 10:50
Sir, see attach block welding we found during surveillance inspections at sites that we talk about.
Attachment: blockwelding.JPG (509k)
Attachment: blockwelding-1.JPG (563k)
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 07-23-2009 11:00 Edited 07-23-2009 11:05
Thank you,

NO, I will not recommend that kind of welding - at all :)

3.2

EDIT: I did some photoshop playing. :)
Attachment: blockwelding-111.JPG (120k)
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-22-2009 17:10
If block welding has any effect whatsoever on the martensitic volume percent it may even help. M volume percent is related to cooling rate and chemistry. You can't change the chemistry, and block welding if anything would slow down cooling rate (see Shanes IPT post) which shifts the transformation from M to bainite or ferrite depending upon the alloy.
Distortion is your primary concern. Residual stress next. If the part is getting cooked residual stress would not pose such a problem.
If its not cooked its probably low alloy or thin wall.
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 07-23-2009 13:16
For info; the materials in the picture shown is Stainless steel
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-23-2009 13:50
Richman,
The only reason for doing it is laziness.
I can't think of any other reason why it would be done,.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 07-24-2009 05:24
You're right Shane, ONLY I just want to know exactly if this kind of welding will not affect on the weld itself or NOT?  It’s hard to reject this kind of welding if we don't have supporting clause or  reasons to explain to contractor  the consequences might happen on the WELDING after completion.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-24-2009 06:05
Richman,
This is an excerpt from a paper on distortion by The Welding Institute in Britain.
Check Item 13.

Welds going bananas?
Fabricators frequently ask: 'How much should I allow for distortion caused by welding?'. The formulae for calculating the shrinkage that will occur in an arc welded fabrication can be applied only to very simple cases. Distortion of arc welded components is generally caused by two factors: shrinkage of the cooling weld metal and local expansion and contraction of the plate.

Longitudinal shrinkage shortens the weld, transverse shrinkage decreases the width, and angular distortion causes rotation of the plates. Apart from these simple effects of shrinkage, longitudinal contraction of a weld may cause components to bow in a direction depending on the location of the weld in relation to the neutral axis of the component. The middle of a length of weld will bow towards the neutral axis.

Some values for shrinkage quoted in TWI's booklet Control of distortion in welded fabrications (available from Woodhead Publishing) are as follows:

Transverse shrinkage
Fillet welds: 0.8mm per weld where the leg length of the weld does not exceed 0.75 x the plate thickness.
Butt welds: 1.5-3mm per weld for 60° V joints, depending on the number of runs per weld.

Longitudinal shrinkage
Fillet Welds: 0.8mm/3m of weld.
Butt Welds: 3mm/3m of weld.

However, it may not always be necessary to make allowances for shrinkage at the assembly stage. This is particularly true when only one set of dimensions is important, for example, that which relates to the overall length of the fabrication. In this case, it is often possible to leave the fitting of one member, such as an endplate, until the remainder of the fabrication has been welded and most of the shrinkage has taken place. The remaining item is then fitted and welded in its correct position.

The above allowances for distortion apply to welded joints that are free to move; in practice, the restraint built up during the fabrication will determine the distortion. TWI welding engineers have, over the years, built up a wealth of experience available to Industrial Members to help them avoid distortion. Rectification of distortion is possible by the use of mechanical force or judiciously applied heating, but the cost of correction is generally at least ten times that of making the job to the required dimensional tolerances in the first place.

It has also become increasingly possible in recent years to use computer-based modelling to predict likely distortion and develop fabrication procedures to minimise it.

Rules for minimising distortion during welding
1. Design fabrications so that welds are balanced each side of the neutral axis.
2. Do not over specify fillet weld sizes.
3. Use double sided welds rather than single sided, and minimum bevel angles, to reduce the amount of weld metal.
4. Use minimum gap sizes.
5. In non-fatigue sensitive areas use intermittent fillet welds where possible. 
6. Use double fillet welds where possible, rather than full penetration T butt welds.
7. Use clamps, strongbacks, jigs or fixtures.
8. Use welding positioners so that welding can be carried out in the flat or horizontal-vertical positions with high deposition rates. 9. Deposit a few weld runs alternately on each side of the joint in double V butt welds. 10. Weld a large construction from the centre outwards.
11. Use high speed welding processes where possible, eg, iron powder MMA electrodes, MIG welding or mechanised welding.
12. Use frequent tacking.
13. Balance welding on each side of the neutral axis, i.e. do not weld all one side before starting the other.
14. Weld fabrications clamped back to back and preset if possible; alternatively stress relieve before releasing from the clamps.
15. Use block welding to prevent movement.
16. When block welding thick plate, butter the sides of the preparation and build up the buttering progressively towards the centre of the joint, so that most of the joint can contract transversely before the joint is bridged.
17. Weld first the joints that cause the most contraction.
18. Make use of sub-assemblies.
19. Make frequent dimensional checks during welding, and if distortion is evident change the welding sequence or the clamping arrangements accordingly.

Have you checked the straightness of your piping ? Is there any angular distortion ?
As for the properties of your weld I would think hardness testing would tell you if you have put too much heat into one area. Others on here are more knowledgeable with the metallurgical aspect and may be able to advise,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By Richman (**) Date 07-24-2009 08:59
Yes Sir, I check the straightness and distortion of pipe spool and everything is acceptable to the requirements.

Anyway Thanks so much for the information and I will carry out all these in dealing with the above topic in the entire project I assign.

More power to you..
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 07-26-2009 03:03
Block welding results in very high residual weld stresses at the tie-ins.  The block results in a highly restrained condition that limits transverse shrinkage at the tie in.  This can cause transverse weld cracking.  If the joint thickness is greater than 3/4"-1", the risk would be much greater than in thinner material.  In stainless steel, the high residual stress may be an issue in service conditions where stress corrosion cracking is a concern.  There can also be problems with complete fusion or trapped slag if the ends are not prepared properly.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-26-2009 17:52
Interesting conversation.

I have a major fabricator that requires block welding of butt joints when long seams are involved. One purpose is to minimize distortion by using the block technique to tie the structure together with partial welds (not partial joint penetration) along the joint to provide structural integrity for alignment purposes and to minimize transverse shrinkage.

The block technique can be utilized to minimize transverse shrinkage/contraction. Each block increases the rigidity of the joint and prevents further transverse shrinkage and contraction as additional "blocks" are welded to completion. The alternative is the cascade technique, but increased NDT of the starts and stops are required to ensure weld soundness in comparison with the block technique. Each thermal cycle, i.e., each weld pass, increases the sum of the distortion. For simplicity, the distortion can be considered to be additive for each additional thermal cycle, i.e, weld pass. The block technique is limited to a relatively small area of the total joint length and it does incur transverse shrinkage (as the weld undergoes phase transformation, i.e., liquid to solid, and then contraction as it cools to room temperature and transforms from body centered to face centered cubic and back to a body centered cubic crystalline lattice structures). As each block is welded, the preceding block (weld), now cooled to the preheat temperature or ambient temperature, increases the joint rigidity and resist the transverse shrinkage and contraction of the block being welded.

As each block is completed, the ends (starts and stops) are ground to remove the inevitable areas of incomplete fusion bound to occur as the welder initiates the arc and the crater areas where there may be some tendency to crack where the weld are terminated. NDT in the form of magnetic particle testing or penetrant testing can be performed to verify weld soundness before proceeding to the next area to be block welded. Areas between adjacent blocks may be several feet apart and then additional blocks are welded in between existing blocks until the entire joint is completed. 

Those of you that weld pipe using the technique where the weld is started at the 6:00 O'clock position progressing toward the 12:00 O'clock position are fully aware of the tendency for the root to close up as the weld progresses to it termination point. A better sequence is to weld in quarters, i.e., 6:00 to 9:00, 3:00 to 12:00, 9:00 to 12:00, and 6:00 to 3:00. The residual stresses are more uniformly balanced and the tendency for the root to close up is reduced.

The block technique described is similar to welding pipe in quadrants in the later paragraph.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 07-26-2009 21:50
Good stuff Al.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-26-2009 21:58
Thanks - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Block welding

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill