inspection after the fact

By bmaas1

Date 07-22-2009 01:33

Is it primer or hot dip galv?

Brian

By 803056

Date 07-22-2009 03:59

Let the erector remove the paint with a power brush and stand back, way back while the dust flies.

Of course you will be able to verify what filler metal was used, what mode of transfer was used if they were welded using GMAW, and that the welders were all properly qualified, right?

More than likely the stairs were welded with GMAW(S) (short circuiting). So, now you run into issues of whether the procedure was qualified as per the Structural Welding Code.

How are you going to sign off on the welds? "All welds meet AWS D1.1 requirements"? That would be a stretch of the imagination.

These are the jobs that keep us gainfully employed. I can't begin to say how many jobs like this I've rejected and then hand off to the Engineer. Once in a while a young feller will say, "That's OK, it's good enough!" How quickly most of them learn.

It's interesting how many people have such low regard for stairs. The one thing my insurance company would not cover when I was welding was stairs and fire escapes. Their position was that there is no reasonable way to predict how many people would be using them in the event of an emergency when they were needed most.

Best regards - Al

By Duke

Date 07-22-2009 07:05

It's a fancy 2 part primer

By ravi theCobra (**)

Date 07-22-2009 19:12

TNEMEC 90 - 97 Primer is a urethane zinc rich primer. One of the peculiarities of this is that anything over a single coat will mud crack. So if you clean off the welds only I don't know what kind of mess you will get - causing me to recomend complete
removal of the 90 - 97 . . . . .

By michael kniolek (***)

Date 07-22-2009 21:16 Edited 07-22-2009 21:29

is the requirment 100% visual?
If it is its gotta be blasted.
Then repainted.
If the shop is spanked over this they will pay more attention to Quality control requirments next time.

As for painting Look into sspc for guidence, along with the paints manufacturers recomendation data sheet.(dont brush it)check the data sheet.

http://www.tnemec.com/resources/product/PDS/90-97.pdf

This may help you decide….
I worked at a weld/paint shop for 5 years, and I cannot count the times that Id come down from the office
And see them moving product into the paint booth and already spraying (endless battle between production and quality control).
Id move ahead of the painter and started a visual inspection , needless to say the soap stone was marking the undercut, porosity, lof. Ect (trust me a weld looks a lot different after blasting you can see everything).
But when I looked at what was painted it was not visible.

MDK

By scrappywelds (***)

Date 07-23-2009 01:11

at a little fab shop I worked years ago we called it "paint straightner", makes welds look better filling in all defects. I didn't last long dealing with welders like that, that would let the painter "fix" their welds.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-23-2009 02:00

At some of the equipment repair places I've worked we called it "Cut to fit, paint to match". And boy are there a lot of guys whose work falls completely into that category.

I know that DSA standards totally change the playing field. Also, you must know what the engineer, job specs, and contracts state about ALL parts of the jobs and how they are to be fabricated and inspected.

To my point, I believe the OP stated there were 'no' inspections called out on the stairs in the specs. Then, according to AISC, 'stairs' are not 'structural'. I have not had the resources to check out stairs according to DSA, I have only inspected their jobs on building structure. So my main question, which can only be answered by the OP, is there something in DSA or the contract documents that says the stairs must be inspected before they get to you? I understand your concern and Al's point but the bottom line is, what is required in this exact contract for the stairs? It doesn't really matter what any of us would like to see done. If you were already overruled in sending it back, I would make sure I was on solid ground before stripping paint off parts. If they were within their rights to build and paint (paint being part of their contract on the stairs) then ship the stairs, then it would stand to reason that if any inspection is to be done it will have to be done as shipped.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Duke

Date 07-24-2009 23:28

Oddly enough there is no "Metal Stairs" section in the Specs. but the project T & I sheet states continuous shop inspection for CP, PP and fillets >5/16".

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 07-23-2009 01:56

[deleted]

By swnorris (****)

Date 07-23-2009 17:58

Duke,

The AISC Code of Standard Practice does not define stairs as a structural item. Many times, the contract documents specify that procedures and welding meet AWS D1.1 and AWS D1.3 criteria, but sometimes there is no such referenced requirement. When there is no such requirement, we still weld our stairs to D1.1 and D1.3. I was just wondering in this case if there was anything mentioned in the contract documents and if not, what criteria was used by the fabricator. Regardless, any reputable fabricator would follow D1.1 and D1.3.

If the stringers are dogleg stringers, I’d be very much concerned about how the dogleg splice was prepped and welded, especially if there were no requirements holding the fabricator to D1.1 criteria. I say this because the welds at these splices are typically ground flush on the outside profile of the channel (assuming the stringers are made of channel. Splice welds on HSS or plate stringers are typically ground flush all around). Sometimes PJP is sufficient and sometimes CJP is required. I’d recommend that in addition to visual acceptance criteria, testing be done to determine if the stringer splices were prepped/welded correctly.. i.e., correct groove depth and weld size achieved if PJP, or complete joint penetration if CJP. If a failure should occur, it would most likely occur at this splice if the splice is not welded properly. I’ve visited fabrication shops where either CJP or PJP was required, and the fabricators simply prepped the joint without regard to D1.1 prequalified criteria. They had no idea what they were doing. On CJP joints I’ve seen both stringer members welded together with each pc. beveled 45 degrees to create a 90 degree groove angle, root openings way beyond prequalified tolerances, HSS stringers prepped for CJP without backing….. and on PJP joints, I’ve seen joints slightly beveled (insufficient groove depth and groove angle), to the point that there’s no way that even the minimum size PJP weld can be made... let alone the required groove depth and weld size. On top of that, after welding, the joint is ground flush! Scary stuff just waiting for a fatigue failure.

By Duke

Date 07-24-2009 04:12

When I wrote that no inspections were called, I meant that no inspections were SCHEDULED, they were certainly required, to D1.1. The same fabricator just finished another building on the same campus, with 4 sets of stairs, all got shop inspected, the welding looked great. They just decided not to call this time.

By UCSB

Date 07-23-2009 19:45

Let me get this straight---- steel members arrived on a DSA project without the proper identification or paperwork and they were allowed to unload?
Where was the DSA-IOR when this was taking place.
Write your report on the delivery and give it to the IOR.
I have worked several DSA and OSHPD projects, not one of the IOR's I worked with would have allowed these to be unloaded.

I worked a small OSHPD project several years ago, when the steel arrived, I reviewed the paperwork (including welder certs) and it was very clear that all of the certs had been retouched. That steel sat on the trailers for three weeks while the shop called all of the welders back in and retested them.

I worked a NOAA project where the overhead crane was manufactured out of state- no shop inspection reports could be found. All pieces were sent to a local paint facility to be sandblasted for visual inspection. As it turned out, nothing matched what was on the drawings and the whole thing was scraped.

Good Luck

By michael kniolek (***)

Date 07-23-2009 21:43

I know that some small shops will tunnel vision when it comes to shipping.
I would be on the phone frequently talking with state inspectors trying to see exactly how far they could go before the first hold point(every state had their own requirements).

Once (way before my time) the state inspector for Ma made a shop scrap 40 or 50 plates because they were not blasted before machining.

I once forgot to fill out a T-28 material release online form for Ohio (was supposed to print it and send with the shipment) they would not release the bearings from the warehouse with out it.(technically the bearings didn’t exist)

We should start the inspection horror thread. I know ive stopped a lot of crap and missed some of the obvious. (ouch)
MDK

By Arctic 510 (**)

Date 07-23-2009 22:21

Good idea!

By 803056

Date 07-24-2009 16:30

Some project specifications are well written and some are, well, let's say they are not so well written.

I love the ones that specify "All welds shall be of first class workmanship and shall meet the requirements of the "Code for Fusion Welding and Gas Cutting in Building Construction". According to the foreword in D1.1 that was the title of the welding code in 1928. The silly geese writing the boiler plate still don't know the name of the current structural welding code or that it was probably change fifty years ago. So much for architects keeping up to speed.

Just because the AISC Code of Standard Practice doesn't include stairs as structural steel doesn't mean they are exempt from requirements of the building code adopted by the state the structure is being built for.

Once again, the less they know the more money I make.

Best regards - Al

By cwi49cwe (*)

Date 08-02-2009 00:17

At some point and time all this "hurry up" mentality in weld QC has to stop !!!! The job site is behind the gun to get things done and is willing to accept any thing sent to the job site, the manufacture is always ready to ship anything just to get paid, there are contracts, agreements, requirements and no one is willing to say STOP, I've witnessed this so many times I can't count , it gives QC a very bad name, I refused to accept a shipment one time because there was no QC release ( as required by contract ) , I was let go, it was installed any way, the project engineer was never told, 2 years into the occupancy, this stair way gave loose, no injuries, but the project engineer called me to go in and do a report. It looked like Stevie Wonder welded it. That wasn't fair to Mr. Wonder----- he could have done better. The facts are the same, no one was held responsible. Construction is at the mercy of fabrication in to many cases. To meet dead lines they accept to many rejectable fabrications. Manufacturers HAVE to be heald 100% responsible. Make them pay for delays and job site rework a few times and all this crap will stop. Codes, standards and specifications were written for a reason. If industry doesn't know how to make QC and Production Control work together in a complimentary way, than they deserve to have someone say SHUT THE DOORS. Quality starts at the receiving of the raw materials and doesn't end until their customer signs the receiver.