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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / SMAW instead of GTAW for root pass for Process Piping
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Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 17:49
Is it just me or is there something in the air today?
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 18:00
Rum?
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 18:23
Oh-Oh John... He's "Floating" again!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 19:30
Sure seems so.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 18:17 Edited 08-03-2009 18:26
3.2
"Not sure why it is so hard to understand that IN MY OPINION GTAW IS MORE EASY WHEN IT COMES TO WELDING PIPES SUBJECT TO NDT."

This is not what you were referring to... In other words, you did not include the three simple and yet, critical in helping anyone understand what you initially meant to as being "Easier." By failing to include those three simple words which would've clarified your perspective in the original answer you gave in the previous posts in this thread...

Do you want to know what those three words that YOU - not I or anyone else in here, FAILED to include in your previous posts??? Here they are:
"SUBJECT TO NDT." Those three words do change things entirely as far as understanding what you were attempting to express - CAPECHE???

I'm done with this conversation... You have mail!!!
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 18:56
And you old man.....you don't even have the guts to write in public what you wrote to me in a private mail. :)

ZERO respect from here.

3.2

NOTE: Yes, I should have stated "subject to NDT" more clear earlier, I thought that was done with my "Certification and re-certification" wording.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 19:18
Poor little baby... Did I hurt your feelings???
Too bad!!! Grow up already, and stop yer whining for crying out loud... There, there 3.2 you'll eventually get over it... I know I already did!!! ;) :) :)
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 20:01
By 3.2 Inspector  Date 08-03-2009 12:43
My bad....

For some reason I thought we talked about pipe welding, whichis subject to various kinds of NDT.
I agree 100% that any monkey can run a GMAW bead on a random piece of plate, no question about that.

3.2
Reply Edit Delete Attach

Old man, kindly take a look at the post I made 08-03-2009 12:43
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure I mention "pipe welding AND NDT" also please check the response I got to that post :)

I you have questions the the above, please do not hesitate to contact me via PM :)

3.2
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 20:06
3.2,

Are you stuttering? Do I make you that nervous?

You've got mail, and I'm sending it to you because you did mention that English isn't you "Mother" language well then, maybe you'll understand what I'm about to send you.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 20:14
Please allow a small but significant correction :)

English isn't you "Mother" language <---- Can you see where you missed an "r" ?

3.2
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 20:52
Go back to two earlier posts in this thread 3.2!!!

Don't be shy now - BOY!!!
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 21:01
Fatter ikke en brik af hvad du siger bedstefar :)

3.2
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 21:06
Back at you  BOY!!!
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 20:09
This is what you wrote 18.17

Do you want to know what those three words that YOU - not I or anyone else in here, FAILED to include in your previous posts??? Here they are:
"SUBJECT TO NDT." Those three words do change things entirely as far as understanding what you were attempting to express - CAPECHE???

This is what I wrote more than 5 hours before.

For some reason I thought we talked about pipe welding, whichis subject to various kinds of NDT.
I agree 100% that any monkey can run a GMAW bead on a random piece of plate, no question about that.

Don't worry about it though, even I (30 years younger) sometimes has problems comprehend what I read here, and several times I have mixed several threads together.

3.2
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 20:18 Edited 08-03-2009 20:24
3.2 or is it really 3.1?

I'll have to give you credit where credit is due... You sure know how to make a fool out of yourself in here!!! :) :) :)

I guess my suggestion for you to stick your head in the toilet, and flush didn't do any good in removing the vacuum that seems to be occupying the interior space in your head, between your ears? ;)
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 20:20 Edited 08-03-2009 20:38
Please explain.

EDIT: The old man did not want to explain.
Instead he wrote me a PM, where he told me to eat **** and die. He also wrote something else, which I did not understand.

I must say that I find that PM a bit odd. Maybe my english was not good enough for him to understand my simple "Please explain" statement.
This has turned ugly, BUT....The old man told me that I can stay on this forum IF my english will improve (I was not aware that he was a moderator here)

I am almost sure that the good Professor Crissi also has received such a PM, he write a very - almost -perfect english, but i have noticed a few spelling mistakes (I am sure the old man also have noticed that)

3.2
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 21:02
Poor little baby!!!!!

You can dish it out but, you certainly cannot take it BOY err, I mean 3.2!!! ;) ;) ;)

Furthermore I never - ever said that I was a moderator here so, do not misquote me you little crybaby!!!

Finally, do not dare to compare yourself with Professor Crisi because you're not even close to being on the same level as he is and for your information, I consider him a dear friend who doesn't need to be involved in this debate!!!

He is a respectful, helpful and decent man!!! You on the other hand are nothing of the sort!!! The only one that will inevitably restrict you from participating in this forum is YOURSELF!!! Ohh yeah, and the administrators.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 21:13
I thought you were a moderator since you told me I only could stay if my english improved.
I also (mistakenly) thought that the english improvement also applied to other non-english members of the forum, even though they are your friends.

Judging by your responses and PM's I strongly suggests that we stop now, I have a feeling that your heart beats VERY fast and in a non-uniform rhythm.
That is not healthy for a man at your age.

3.2
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 22:19
Your English writing skills have all of a sudden improved without any new lessons!!! Remarkable!!!
One question for you 3.2... How do you know my age, and if you do know this information, how were you able to access this private information without my consent???

Btw, my heart is as healthy as anyone of the age of twenty five so, please do not concern yourself with my health and instead, you should consider entering yourself into a rehabilitation faciltiy because you clearly have issues that I believe demand attention from mental health specialist which I'm not qualified to diagnose...

However, I do know that you have serious social behavior issues that desperately need the attention from experts in the mental health fields.

Now, Now 3.2!!! get a hold of yourself... There's no need to get so emotional over your condition!!! The first step is to admit that you have an illness, and the second step is to admit your illness so, when you get to your third step, you'll be on your way to recovery.
Parent - By Arctic 510 (**) Date 08-03-2009 21:54
Wow.  Don't quite know what else to say.  What drew me to the inspection field as a welder was the professionalism exhibited by inspectors I ran across.  Glad this thread didn't happen a few years ago...  One thing I can't stand is name calling and petty insults over professional disagreements.  Another is disrespect based solely on age, whether is to towards one's elders OR those who are younger.  I know I'm butting my head in, but this is a public forum. 

Back to business, I have found that some people have a "knack" for GTAW.  To some people it IS natural.  For myself, I'm all thumbs with a TIG root.  Gimme 1/8" 5p any day...  ;-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 18:40
OK, gentlemen,
  I believe I see the disconnect here. I thought we were traveling down the same road, but it has now become quite clear that we are traveling down two different roads. Let me explain.

3.2,
  Yes I am quite sure you do see greater success in the power plant/oil industry API 1104/B31.1 & 3 with GTAW/SMAW process. There are reasons for this, one of which is they are proven to be the better process overall. Thus the results we see in lower NDT rejections for this process.

Now you mention certifying and re-certifying welders to GTAW. Certifying and by extent, re-certifying welders to the GTAW process is a whole different ball of wax than training welders to certify usind the GTAW process. To certify one must first train. Now I am sure there are the rare cases when a person pics up a welder for any process and can certify. This is not the "norm" by and stretch of the word.

I believe you are right when you say that it is easier to certify and re-certify someone using the GTAW process. I say this because that person has already been trained in that process. It is my opinion and past experience that once trained properly in the GTAW process one can master any of them. This is because it takes more "skill" to master this process.

Which brings me to my point of it being harder to train one to be able to certify using the GTAW process as opposed to say, GMAW.

Now I hope  did not just really confuse everyone with that. LOL

I want to also apologize to Richman for my part in hijacking this thread. I hope you received the answers and help you were seeking before this went south.

jrw159
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-03-2009 18:50
Well, I agree with some of your words here, but not when it comes to what is most easy, both to learn and master.

3.2
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 18:51
Well Sir, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree. :-)

Take care,
jrw159
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-03-2009 19:48 Edited 08-03-2009 19:53
This is in response to the general thread.
NDE results are not related to the process. They are related to the skill of the welder or operator.
I've seen GMAW/FCAW, SAW and SMAW guys with reject rates well less than 1% (well less than 1/2 of 1%) for years. I've seen "GTAW" welders with reject rates much higher. It is a logical absurdity to separate the 'ability' of a process from the ability of the welder/operator.
The process don't weld itself. Unless we are talking true automatic, of which we aren't.
This leads me to my second point, in general, and I'm talking power, petrochem, and fabrication, a very very large portion ofthe field, welders with GTAW certs are more highly skilled than strictly SMAW (though I've seen pipeliner SMAW only guys that were absolute artists) and GMAW/FCAW welders. There are very very few GTAW only type welders. They are generally restricted to very specific industry sectors. However, the manufacturing field is full of GMAW or SMAW or FCAW only guys, especially in structural applications where tubular welding would give them fits.
And to buttress this, very few people start out on GTAW. Most start with either SMAW or one of the semi automatics. Some SAW. Therefore most who are GTAW welders are at least two process welders. This in and of itself argues for a higher level of skill.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 08-11-2009 16:55
i rarely bother posting here as i thought perhaps the lads here were a little too knowledgeable, particularly the inspector types, this thread however is the perfect place for me to ask a question that has been bugging me for years.  who is tougher  batman or spiderman.  f/j
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-11-2009 17:27
LOL

jrw159
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-11-2009 18:28
Hulk
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-12-2009 01:02
flange jockey,
I think it's time to rethink your statement about that "too knowledgeable" thing.

You ask a pretty simple question; Who's tougher, batman or spiderman?

The first two responses, ahem... both inspectors...answer with Superman and the Hulk.

nuff said.

Welcome back.

:)
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-12-2009 05:56
I noticed that you did not answer, maybe you are not an inspector :)

3.2
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 08-12-2009 07:46
3.2

The Inspector should never listen to hearsay :) I would request for fracture test to determine their toughness :)

Regards
Joey
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 12:19
Yeah.
The idea of smakin em with a hammer crossed my mind a time or two.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-12-2009 12:05
3.2,
Ouch. That hurt.
I am not afraid to make known my political or religious views but NO way am I going to let the forum know which superhero I think is tougher.
You would be ostracized immediately by the "other" 50%.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-12-2009 12:45
Hello Kitty?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-12-2009 13:42
  You Euros prolly don't even know this one!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 13:45
And it sure isn't "Uber Dog!!!" ;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 16:07
When you find yourself in danger
When you're threatened by a stranger
When it looks like you will take a lickin

There is one thing you should learn
When ther is no where else to turn
Just caaaaaallll
For Super Chicken
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-12-2009 14:01
No I don't know this fine looking gentleman.

3.2
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 17:07 Edited 08-12-2009 17:09
It is like the difference between riding a bicycle and a tricycle. It is easier to learn to ride a tricycle than a bicycle. However, once the bicycle is mastered, it is easier to round corners at high speed with a bicycle than it is with a tricycle.

I can teach a welder to use FCAW, GMAW, or SMAW more quickly than I can teach them to use GTAW. Once the GTAW is mastered, it is easier to produce acceptable quality welds because there is no slag to interfere with my view of the weld puddle and the welder can add filler metal (rod) only as necessary when necessary. The three welding processes listed previously add filler metal whether the welder wants it or not. 

GTAW is noted for producing high quality welds, but that statement is conditional; the welder has to be skilled, the joint properly fitted, and the joint has to be clean. I can produce acceptable welds with welders that may not be as highly skilled using SMAW, FCAW, or GMAW, but those processes are typically used when the quality levels are not as stringent. There are exceptions to general statements, but I am limiting my comments to general cases and I am speaking in relative terms, all things being equal.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-12-2009 17:25
Al,

It's not easy to disagree with your posts, however this time I do.
Please see my post where I mention "pipe welding subject to NDT" along with my many replys in this thread :)

I stand by my posts, where I say that in my experience as a welder, inspector and recognized third party "Certification body" GTAW is more easy to learn and master than any other main welding process :)

Even though 99.99% of the members here strongly disagree with me, and this thread has made me even more unpopular than before (if that is possible) I just can't change my mind about it.

And that just about wraps it up from my part.

3.2
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-12-2009 21:23 Edited 08-12-2009 21:25
I may not agree with you, but right or wrong, you do stand by your convictions.

The welding of pipe using GTAW is even more difficult than welding on the bench.

Lawrence, Henry, and all those of you that have dedicated your careers to teaching people, young and old alike, to weld, please heed our Forum member and teach your students to weld with GTAW first, because it is easier than the other processes. All those hours of learning how to manipulate the torch in one hand, the rod in the other, and juggle the current simultaniously clearly aren't necessary. That is of course, unless you are dealing with complete idiots. They should be able to weld pipe in a fraction of the time you have been devoting to honing those skills. It's time wasted.

It is lucky for me that you (and a few others folks) do stand by your convictions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I depend on management with similar convictions to keep me gainfully employed. A close parallel to your wisdom is summed up by the thoughts of one CEO that retained my services; “Anyone can weld. I could teach a monkey to weld.” 

A slight extension of his thought process would envelop your stand on this subject. Fortunately I was able to show him the error of his ways and turn the company around.

I would like to make a motion to move this thread to the "Science Fiction" section of the Forum. Do I have a second?

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it wear a bikini!"

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-13-2009 04:49
Al, did you miss the part where I mention "in my experience"

3.2
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-13-2009 22:36
Hello Slim;

I hope you recognize I am only raising a little dust with you.

You are entitled to your opinions and I will defend your right to do so.

It's the ability of each of us to voice our personal opinion that keeps the Forum alive and worth reading. If each of us agreed on every point, it would be boring and a waste of our time.

Don't think for a moment that I was doing anything more than having some fun with you. I definitely have no intention of trying to offend you (or anyone) with my barbs. They are meant to be in jest.

You made several valid points. Not enough to sway many opinions to your way of thinking, but still you took a good run at it! ;)

I'm looking forward to reading many more of your posts. I do enjoy reading what you have to say. I consider you to be a valued member of the Forum because you do have a wealth of experience and you are willing to share with us. There are some people that are not willing to put themselves or their opinions on the line. They have plenty to say, but they never have the convictions to put it in writing in a public forum.

Was it Mark Twain that said something to the effect, "No one knew I was ignorant until I opened my mouth."?

It's too bad that many people feel that way and won't share their experience for fear of "looking silly" to the rest of the world. I guess those of us that play here aren't afraid of looking silly. Maybe it's because we try not to take ourselves too seriously. At least I hope I never get to the point where I am not willing to listen to other peoples' opinions or that I get to the point where I believe my opinion is the only one worth listening to. Hell, it would get mighty boring to have no one to talk to other than myself!

Keep 'em coming partner!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 07:24
Al,
I also feel that some members here don't share what they have on mind, simply because they are "afraid" that other members will disagree and consequently think they are "stupid"
I also sometimes hold back on something I want to say, simply because I am "afraid" things will be ugly. I will try to loosen up a little.

It is truely a shame as different opinions keeps a forum like this alive.

I too listen to others peoples opinion - that is part of how I learn - but if I have a rock solid experience and background in what I say there is no way I can change my mind.
Some people call it confidence, other people call it overconfidence and some people even call me ignorant :)

3.2
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 08:08
Oy Vey!!! ;) :) :)

Honey!!! Where are my waders!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 00:32
3.2
  I noticed you left out the word "limited". :-)

This truly is in fun. I know you have been around the block a few times.

Sometimes people just don't agree. LOL

jrw159
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 07:14
Be carefull that I dont edit my post to: "Extensive" :)

3.2
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 00:04
Al,
  As I read your post I had to record my reaction. This was also done in fun but this is how hard I laughed.

jrw159
Attachment: laugh.mp3 (0B)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 03:21
I got nothng on my screen. What happened?

Al
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 08-14-2009 03:24
It took a second, its a music file!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 03:27
OK, now it's working. My computer is normally on "mute". I had a little box like that once, only it farted when you pushed the little button and then giggled!

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / SMAW instead of GTAW for root pass for Process Piping
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