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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / INHERENT RECTIFICATION OF THE ELECTRIC OUTPUT
- - By hrezvany (*) Date 09-05-2009 11:06
Inherent rectification of the electrical output is produced in the arc when TIG welding using:

a. AC with a suppressor
b. AC without a suppressor
c. DC with reverse polarity
d. DC with straight polarity

The answer is (b) but why?
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-05-2009 15:51 Edited 09-05-2009 16:07
Hamid,

yes... it's me again!

You know, it is an interesting topic you have posted.

But please allow myself to mention something.

From my humble standpoint - most likely there are being more than those but however - there are two different approaches to deal with this interesting question.

1. Follow the way as to be seen on the picture I have embedded (hereby a heartfelt 'THANKS' to our common and most appreciated forum fellow member 'jon20013' ;-)).

2. Describing the behaviour of an AC-Gas Shielded Tungsten Arc when welding e.g. aluminium and its alloys.

As for option 1 the answer might sound like: "Answer (b) must be the correct one, since 'hrezvany' himself has already posted that it is correct. Or in other words. Find 'x' by using the 'simplest' way (see the picture)."

Certainly this makes actually no sense, does it?

As for option 2 however, I allow myself to reply your question with a counter question, which is: "Do you know, what 'Inherent Rectification' actually means?

EDIT: O.K. please accept my apologies. Most likely you don't know what it means, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question, isn't it? Then let me humble ask in a different way. And again, there is no offence intended! Have you occupied yourself with the basics of GTAW e.g. aluminium and its alloys, before you have read the 'Inherent Rectification' question a/o answer, respectively?

Thanks!
Stephan
Parent - - By hrezvany (*) Date 09-06-2009 09:43 Edited 09-07-2009 06:56
Dear Stephan
Now, I have finished a comprehensive course of CSWIP 3.1 and I think I have enough information regarding TIG welding procedure. I found this question and its answer a liitle strange. (b) isn't my answer its the answer of examiner. I don't know about its correctness.
In my opinion, for TIG welding we have to use AC for welding of AL to remove refractory film of the surface. And DC+ isn't possible due to probability of tunstan inclusion and likewise DC- produce deep penetration in TIG in contrast to DC+ in SMAW, GMAW.
Regarding 'Inherent Rectification' , I know it means 'intrinsic Rectification' and perhaps you want to say that real answer is DC with straight polarity. (d)
Heartfelt thanks for your cooperation
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-06-2009 15:09 Edited 09-06-2009 15:11
Hamid,

thanks for these additional descriptions.

Quote: "...and i think have enough information regarding TIG welding procedure..."

and

Quote: "...(b) isn't my answer its the answer of examiner. I don't know about its correctness..."

Hmmm... this again sounds a bit strange to me - forgive me the honesty - as it sounds a bit... contradictory?

Anyway, according to the nowadays valid theories the tungsten electrode must have positive polarity, i.e. act as the anode, to emit 'massive' ions. These again, to keep it very short, are accelerated across the column, impinge on the aluminium surface, or the Al-oxide surface layer respectively, to hereby enable a relatively 'stable' GTAW process behaviour.

Thus, in general and basically, DC+ would be thoroughly feasible to be used for GTAW of aluminium and its alloys. However, anode overheating effects are the result what's the reason again that this technique is just very rarely used. Amongst others, to avoid tungsten inclusions caused by molten off electrode material. Nonetheless, it is - from the theoretical and also practical standpoint definitely possible.

In this context by the way. No, I don't "...want to say that real answer is DC with straight polarity. (d)

Anyway, the 'regular' way of GTAW aluminium and its alloys is to use Alternating Current. Hereby, simply put, the electrode material is allowed to 'cool down' during the period of acting as the negative polarity cathode, and to be protected hereby from a deterioration due to superheating.

But... physically governing the GTAW process is as well-known the 'thermionic' emission. The stability of a thermionic emission again depends on the cathode temperature, i.e. in case of electrode polarity is negative, its temperature is determining the 'amount' of electrons emitted towards the plasma, simply put. Another crucial point besides the cathode temperature with GTAW, is the work function of the electrode material. Amongst others that's the reason for doping the pure tungsten with rare earth metal oxides like La2O3,...,.

For a general simplification, let us agree that the cathode temperature is very important for the arc plasma stability and thus, for the welding process stability itself. And let us just keep in mind, that the electrode work function is depending on the cathode temperature as well.

So far so good. What happens now when AC GTAW? Well, of course we are using variable polarity depending on a specific frequency. Once the tungsten electrode has positive polarity (anode) emitting ions to be impinged on the surface layer on the one hand. Being the anode however, it is bombarded by a high amount of low mass but highly accelerated electrons and thus being superheated. And once the electrode has negative polarity (cathode) emitting electrons to be accelerated across the column and to swap their kinetic energy into thermal energy - i.e. to melt the parent material, but to be otherwise allowed to 'cool down' during this period.

Coming slowly to the point...

As the polarity changes one can observe an inherent thermionic behaviour during a very particular period – which is as the current drops to 'cross' and rising again to 'leave' the normal current zero line. Here the thermionic behaviour of both tungsten electrode and base material does change as well. In other words, as the electrode is anode – i.e. having high temperature improving the emissivity for ions – the emissivity for electrons of the ‘colder’ aluminium weld pool does deteriorate. This again leads to a waveform imbalance which is referred to as ‘Inherent Rectification’.

There is, mentioned by the way, another phenomenon with AC GTAW of aluminium and its alloys, referred to as ‘Partial Rectification’. But due to this was not the issue of your original post, I don’t want to deal with this herein.

I am honest with you, I have never heard of the term ‘suppressor’ before. But however, to overcome the ‘Inherent Rectification’ phenomenon there are – to the best of my knowledge and as far as I was allowed to learn – different ways:

1.  Use of series resistance = inefficient means

2.  Parallel bias voltage = relatively costly and complicated

3.  Battery series capacitance = often used to overcome inherent rectification

4.  HF- superimposition to stabilise the ‘normal current zero line’ behaviour

5.  Use of pure rectangular wave form power supplies enabling the current to cross the normal current zero line rather ‘instantaneously’

There may be others, being unknown to me. Therefore it will be interesting to know what the real GTAW experts say –> Lawrence - Henry ?

I just can assume that a ‘suppressor’ might be a series capacitance suppressing the arc instabilities through ‘rectification’ phenomena by stabilising the arc behaviour in AC GTAW.

Hope this helps a bit.

Stephan
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-06-2009 21:16
  Stephan do you he has ever GTAW using AC or DC-current.
                    MG
                  
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-06-2009 21:28
THINK???
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-09-2009 13:24
Thanks ssbn727 for clearing things up for the people on the forum my bad.

                                 M.G.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 15:48
Hi Milton!

No Need to thank me Milton! You were probably in a rush and well, you know what I'm talking about... Heck! I've done the same many times myself! :) :) :)
Anywho, my answer would be at best - suspect??? At worst - MOST DEFINITELY NOT!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-06-2009 21:52
Milton,

I beg your forgiveness.

As always I feel honoured by reading one of your responses!

But please. As you know I am no English native speaker, what am I missing?

Or am I right by thinking that our most appreciated forum fellow member Henry - ssbn727 - has completed your response by posting his comment 'THINK'?

Hereby - at least as far as I may humble interpret - one could read: "...do you think he has ever...".

Please forgive me my ignorance!

Thanks!
Stephan

P.S. Or is there anything wrong with my reply? You know how it is sometimes... peening the words into the keyboard may lead sometimes to undesired mistakes! :-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 09-06-2009 22:02
By all appearances one would THINK so. :-)

jrw159
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-06-2009 22:07
Thanks John!

This rests my mind to peace - or in other words:

Now I may calmly go to sleep! :-)
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-09-2009 13:31
  Sorry Stephan
   I diddn't read over it, sorry for throughing you off like that.
                       
                        M.G.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-09-2009 13:34
Oh Milton!

No need to apologise!!

Just wanted to be sure... :-)

Thanks Milton and have a great day!

Stephan
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-09-2009 14:15
You to  Stephan.
  M.G.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2009 07:35
Milton,

meanwhile rather... 'No!' :-)
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-07-2009 03:23
   Stephan, Your post brings to mind (2) different methods used in the past, (1) an automobile battery in the welding circut and (2) a bank of capacitors on an old Airco "CB" Capacitor Ballanced machine. This machine had a sheet metal case on the side of the machine full of capacitors, otherwise it looked pretty much like the old orange with the black top Airco machines of the '60s or before.

  As I don't see either of these methods used recently, I guess they didn't help all that much, or they have become unnecessairy due to advances in power supply design.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2009 06:27
Dave,

thanks again for your - as usual - very valuable reply!

I can remind to have worked with such a 'capacitor bank' machine, long time ago. It used sinusoidal wave form and it was, honestly spoken, an excellent tool for aluminium applications. And as a positive add on, it was - even though being a giant chunk of a machine - quite 'bulletproof'! I wonder whether it still exists today... :-)

Thanks!
Stephan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-08-2009 01:58
Stephan, the Airco "CB" machine I mentioned was in an industrial surplus/scrap yard. Many older machines, some with little if anything wrong with them were scrapped after the economic downturn earlier this decade. A bit over 1 year ago scrap prices were unusually high, any machines lying around in the yard were processed for scrap materials.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-08-2009 07:28
Dave,

I may be wrong, but reading:

"Many older machines, some with little if anything wrong with them were scrapped after the economic downturn earlier this decade. (...) any machines lying around in the yard were processed for scrap materials...".

makes my heart bleed.

Like I said. I did very much like to use this 'chunk' of a machine at that time and hopefully it hasn't went the same way like those ones you're sepaking about.

The owner, by the way, has - very unfortunately - longly passed away already. May God have Mercy on his soul. I will never, never forget this truly great gentleman. He was an outstanding welding expert and has coined my personality in many ways.

When he spoke my eyes and ears were widely opened and my mouth was shut!

As I have met him for the last time in my life, it was on a meeting of my German Welding Society section, he was 73(!) years old. I was so pleased to see him again, please believe me.

His face was as red as fire at this evening and completely covered by rich oil-based cream.

As I asked him what he'd done, he smiled to me and answered: "Huuuh, Stephan, diameter 2.4 mm Flux Cored Wire! That sometimes   m a y   act like hell!"

I will never forget him!

Sorry Dave, for running off the track...

Thanks!
Stephan
Parent - By hrezvany (*) Date 09-07-2009 07:04
I'm so happy to be in this forum. What's your opinion about my question?

Inherent rectification of the electrical output is produced in the arc when TIG welding using:

a. AC with a suppressor
b. AC without a suppressor
c. DC with reverse polarity
d. DC with straight polarity
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 09-07-2009 03:32 Edited 09-07-2009 03:38
That was far too well thought out a response to someone who thinks that rectification applies to DC.
But, as for the term suppressor, it refers to a "DC suppressor".  That is a component that filters the DC out of the waveform, leaving only the AC component intact.  Since odd numbered harmonics in an AC waveform are symmetric about the axis, ideally, this would be a filter that only acts upon (and removes) even numbered harmonics.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2009 06:32
Robert,

let me confess. Your response was an excellent piece of education to me!

Therefore, a heartfelt thanks to you!

Stephan
Parent - - By hrezvany (*) Date 09-07-2009 07:05
I'm so happy to be in this forum. What's your opinion about my question?

Inherent rectification of the electrical output is produced in the arc when TIG welding using:

a. AC with a suppressor
b. AC without a suppressor
c. DC with reverse polarity
d. DC with straight polarity
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2009 07:29 Edited 09-07-2009 09:13
Hamid,

I am also very happy to be in this forum, but honestly spoken you're finding me a bit confused.

Apparently - and unfortunately - I failed in clearing up that answer 'b' must be the correct one.

Thus once again.

You might separate both sections of the given options by knowing AC is the regular chosen mode for GTAW aluminium welding.

Then you might consider - if not even following my humble explanations but following 'rlitman's' one - that a suppressor is needed to filter the DC fractions from the AC wave form imbalances.

And then... adding 1+1, you will find the answer by yourself and no more discussion or 'opinion' is needed, because the physics is pointing you in the right direction.

But perhaps I am missing somewhat..?

Stephan

EDIT: Like I said. I was a bit confused. I forgot to write a 'be'... or was it yet a 'b'? :-)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-09-2009 15:58 Edited 09-09-2009 16:10
Been watching this thread for a while.

I think Stepen is getting down to asking the right technical questions while at the same time providing the perfect background for discussion by giving us a brief explaination of what is going on during an AC welding cycle in GTAW and how the tungsten electrode behaves.

"AC without a suppressor"    What does this term really mean..?????????

My hope was that Stephen or 3.1 or maybe another Euro or Forigen member might be able to unravel this term.. I don't think it is a standard U.S. term unless there is some dohickie in a standard transformer rectifier that goes beyond my depth.

My guess is that this "superessor" may in fact be an "spark gap oscellator" which is the componant in GTAW power supplies that provides superimposed High Frequency (AC HF) and arc starting on DC.

I'll start by paralelling a bit of Stephens track and then getting into the meat of things.:

When the hot, emmisive electrode becomes the cathode, establishing the arc is easy. However, it is often quite difficult to reestablish the arc when the colder and less emissive workpiece becomes the cathode.  Because voltage from the power supply is designed to support a relatively low arc voltage arc, it may be insufficient to initiate electron flow. When the arc does not reignite consistently , it becomes destabilized and can cause poor welding performance.

This phenominon is called "rectification."  Thus a voltage assist from another source is needed. A high voltage but low-ccurrent spark gap oscillator (High Freq.) commonly provides the asssist at a relatively low cost. The high  frequency ensures that a voltage peak will occur reasonably close to the current reversal in the welding arc (zero point in a sine wave) creating a low-resistance ionized pathe for the welding current to follow. The same device is often used to initiate direct current arcs.

The illustration below shows what I am trying to say....  The question remains however... What is a supressor..  I see nothing being supressed in this chain of events so am wondering if the proper term is being applied.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 16:35
Lawrence,
"Dohickie"  What does this term really mean???????????
Isn't that supposed to be doohickie?
And what is all this talk about rectumfire. I have to say, this is not an appropriate term for this forum. Having experienced rectumfire from spicy foods,,,,,,,And when I have rectumfire I certainly need a 'suppressor' I can tell you that. Whatever the term means.
Emily,,,,, Its rectifier. Not rectumfire.
Oh. Never mind.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 17:54
Hi Jeff!

It's called "Gas-X" The suppressor - that is!!! :) :) :) You know... For those bad cases of "Rectumfire!" :) :) :)
Sorry but I couldn't resist!!! ;)

Respectfully,
henry
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-09-2009 17:35
Lawrence!

Once again. I humble bow my head before you!

That's one of an explanation... excellent.

So... provided that I have it right.

A 'suppressor' isn't actually a 'suppressor' but actually a device 'bridging' the period adjacent to the normal current zero line by superimposing HF-pulses?

That sounds reasonable, no doubt.

But there is also a very competent response from rlitman saying [quote]: "But, as for the term suppressor, it refers to a "DC suppressor".  That is a component that filters the DC out of the waveform, leaving only the AC component intact." .

Anyway, I am honest. I have never heard the term before, neither in the former nor in the latter context.

Thanks!
Stephan
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 09-09-2009 18:30
Actually, the frequency of the superimposed stabilization voltage has little to do with the likelihood of a peak occuring around the background wave zero crossing (for that, DC would be ideal).  High frequencies are used because at these high frequencies, impedence brings electrons to the conductor's surface.  This is known as the skin effect, and while it increases the charge density at the tapered tip of the electrode making arc initiation easier as well, the skin effect is primarily harnessed for safety purposes.  While a 10kv DC jolt is easily lethal, at high frequency, it will not travel through your body, so it is relatively safe.

Your thermal description of rectification is pretty good, but I just need to point out that it is exacerbated in aluminum (and other reactive metals which we would be using A/C GTAW for), by ever-present oxides.  Their work function is higher than that of the parent metal (hot or cold), and so the electrode negative half of the cycle is favored.

From here, I had to do a little googling, to clarify some terms I wasn't familiar with . . .

Your description of how HF helps, describes "Partial Rectification".  In Partial Rectification, the electrode positive half of the cycle either delays ignition until the voltage increases enough to start the arc, or is skipped entirely.  The HF source, ensures that the electrode positive half of the cycle starts, and starts as soon as possible.  Square wave technology avoids this issue, albeit in a different manner; by avoiding the cool-down period around the zero-crossing.

"Inherent Rectification" refers to the imbalance of current flow between the half cycles, and that the current can be though of, as the addition of both a balanced A/C wave, and a D/C component, because of the resistance to electron flow towards the electrode, by the oxide layer's high work function.  HF will not correct this.  Neither will square waves.

A "Suppressor" is an electronic filter, that removes the D/C component current. 
In retrospect, my comment about "even harmonics" isn't really what this is getting at (because the term refers only to the D/C component created by this effect, and not the additional waveform distortion).
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-09-2009 19:49
Robert.

Thanks for the excellent clairification.

*** three stars!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 20:21 Edited 09-09-2009 20:29
I respectfully DISAGREE with your observation as to what I meant, and would point out that we are both more or less speaking in the same terms!!!

I said this; "Then there is the DC Suppressor unit which is used to suppress the inherent DC tendency of the AC welding arc. When welding aluminium with a tungsten electrode on AC polarity there is a tendency for the current to be changed to DC. This condition (INHERENT RECTIFICATION) increases as the oxide film increases. A DC suppressor unit allows the AC current but prevents what is known as the DC component, thus a suppressor is only necessary when welding aluminium, magnesium, and their alloys."

This has the effect of producing weaker arcs in the electrode positive direction than in the electrode negative direction... The problem is overcome by a large value suppressor capacitor which is built into the electrical circuit in series with the supply to the torch... This capacitor charges up during the negative half cycles and discharges during the positive half cycles to "top up" the current wave form. so it is the High Frequency Capacitor(Relatively Large Value capacitor compared to other capacitors except for power factor capacitors) which acts as a suppressor to whoever wrote that question, because it is in fact, a DC suppressor unit, and it is the control circuit that controls the frequency level with respect to how many hertz per half cycle the capacitor discharges by superimposing itself to the main current flow being transferred across the arc.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-10-2009 07:42 Edited 09-10-2009 14:33
Robert,

I'd like to agree with Lawrence.

Your explanation(s) are both very readable and, much more important, understandable. Thus it's a blessing to have you in the forum!

After reading and re-reading the posts which have been stated during the past evening with respect to this topic, I’d like to put it in a nutshell.

Please correct me when I am wrong.

•  Regarding to the original post so far, option 'b' is – by all means – the correct answer.

•  A battery series capacitor is – in the context to the original question – supposed, to be the ‘mystery’ hidden behind the term ‘suppressor’.

•  I have – unfortunately – mixed up the means to overcome ‘Partial Rectification’ (i.e. HF-Superimposition + Square-Wave) with the means to overcome ‘Inherent Rectification’ (i.e. Use of series resistance + Parallel bias voltage + Battery series capacitance).

Thanks!
Stephan

EDIT: It came to me quite suddenly! Of course my reply should definitely not mean that Henry's explanations are even less well readable or, much more important - understandable!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-10-2009 14:38
Hi Stephan, hrezvany, Lawrence, Rob and everyone else!!!

this is from the AWS welding handbook, Ninth edition, volume two: "Welding Processes - Part 1" Chapter Three: "Gas Tungsten Arc Welding" (GTAW)  Pages 122 - 123

Quote: "Conventional power sources produce a sinusoidal open circuit voltage output, which is out of phase with the current by about 90 degrees. The frequency of voltage reversal is typically fixed at the standard 60 hertz (Hz) frequency of the primary power. The actual arc voltage is in phase with the welding current. The voltage measured is the sum of voltage drops in the electrode, and the plasma and also at the anode and cathode, all of which are the result of current flow.

When the current decays to zero, various effects will occur depending on the polarity. When the thermionic tungsten electrode becomes negative, it supplies electrons immediately to re-ignite the arc. However, when the weld pool becomes negative, it cannot supply electrons until the voltage is raised sufficiently to initiate cold cathode emission. Without this voltage, the arc becomes unstable or fails to re-ignite.

Some means of stabilizing the arc during voltage reversal is required with conventional sinusoidal welding power sources. This is accomplished by using a high-frequency circuit in the power sources, by discharging capacitors at the appropriate time in the cycle, by using high voltage high frequency sparks in parallel with the arc, and by using power sources with a square wave output.

To improve arc stability, the open circuit voltage of the transformer can be increased. An open circuit voltage of  about 100 volts (V) (Root Mean Square) is needed with helium shielding. The necessary voltage can also be obtained by adding high frequency voltage in series with the transformer. Generally, the high frequency voltage should be on the order of several thousand volts, and it's frequency can be as high as several megahertz. The current should be very low. The high frequency voltage can be applied continuously or periodically during welding. In the latter case, a burst of high frequency voltage should be timed to occur during the time when the welding current passes through zero.

Square wave power sources can change the direction of the welding current in a short period of time. The presence of high voltage, coupled with high electrode and base metal temperatures at current reversals, allows the arc to be re-ignited without the need for an arc stabilizer. Also, the lower effective "peak" of the square waveform tends to increase the usable current range of the electrode.

Since the electrons needed to sustain an arc are more readily provided when the electrode is negative, less voltage is required. The result is a higher welding current during the DCEN interval than during the DCEP time. In effect, the power source produces both direct current and alternating current. This type of rectification can cause damage to the power source due to overheating, or with some machines, decay in the output, but these can be eliminated by wave balancing.

The original technology of balanced - current power sources involved either series connected capacitors, or a DC voltage source (such as a battery) in the welding circuit. Modern power source circuits use electronic wave balancing. Although balanced current flow is not essential for most manual welding operations, it is beneficial for high speed mechanized or automatic welding.

The advantages of balanced current flow are the following; 1.0 Better oxide removal; 2.) smoother, better welding; and 3.) No requirement for reduction in output rating of a given size of a conventional welding transformer. ( The unbalanced core magnetization that is produced by the DC component of an unbalanced current flow is minimized.)

The following are disadvantages of balanced current flow: 1.) Larger tungten electrodes are needed. 2.) Higher open circuit voltages generally associated with with some methods of wave balancing may constitute a safety hazard. 3.) Balanced wave power sources are more expensive.

Some square-wave power sources adjust the current level during the electrode positive and the electrode negative cycles at the standard (US) 60 Hz frequency (50hz in Europe, Asia.) Functions provided by the more sophisticated power sources adjust the time of each polarity half cycle as well as the current level duirng that half cycle. Thes variable wave forms will adjust the welding current to suit a particular application. Power sources with variable polarity capabilities developed in the 1990's have provided the means to adjust the DCEN interval up to 90-95%. This greatly increases the weld penetration while reducing the heating of the tungsten electrode, thus allowing the pointed tungsten electrode geometry to be maintained."

This most definitely sums it up for me, and I hope does the same for everyone else! ;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-10-2009 14:49
Hello Henry!

Invaluable!

Thanks!
Stephan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-11-2009 02:43
    Hank, Some of what You quoted from the 9th eddition reads exactly like the 7th edition [1978] which I have. The 7th edition description of partial & full rectification is a little less complex, and easier to understand. They do mention square wave power sources, but I am pretty sure they mean Syncrowave era technology, not true square wave as in inverters.

    There is no use of the word "suppressor" in either description, that I am aware of.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-11-2009 03:07
Hi Dave!

No there isn't but, it definitely is described! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-11-2009 03:43
Frequently in electronics when caps are used as supressors, You are trying to REMOVE any traces od AC wave form, or voltage spikes -  "noise" from a DC line. I just find it an odd use of the term. I agree with Lawrence that this is odd terminology.

Hrezvany is bringing to point some good questions regarding what I, in My maybe not so humble opinion, think are poorly worded test questions. But Who an I to say???
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-11-2009 04:10
This is not AWS terminology, or ASME terminology either... It is based on European nomenclature. ;) Why does hrezvany come here to seek clarification for a term in a exam widely and almost exclusively given as well as used on the other side of the pond is anyone's guess!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 19:01 Edited 09-09-2009 21:01
Just to add to Larry's excellent observations, I would also like to share some of my own...

The complex chemical and electrical reactions that occur in the "furnace" of an arc results in the impedance to the positive flow of current being greater than that to the negative flow... This has the effect of producing weaker arcs in the electrode positive direction than in the electrode negative direction... The problem is overcome by a large value suppressor capacitor which is built into the electrical circuit in series with the supply to the torch... This capacitor charges up during the negative half cycles and discharges during the positive half cycles to "top up" the current wave form. So, it is the High Frequency Capacitor (Relatively Large Value capacitor compared to other capacitors except for power factor capacitors) which acts as a suppressor to whoever wrote that question, because it is in fact, a DC suppressor unit, and it is the control circuit that controls the frequency level with respect to how many hertz per half cycle the capacitor discharges by superimposing itself to the main current flow being transferred across the arc.

AC (Alternating current) - is used only for TIG welding of aluminium, magnesium and their alloys. Surface oxidation is automatically removed by the action of the arc each time the electrode becomes positive, (50 times per second in Europe, 60 in the USA), thus the need for corrosive fluxes is unnecessary. Equal heat distribution is achieved by the rapid reversal of the polarity between positive and negative...If a DC supply was used and the electrode was connected to the positive pole it would overheat. If DC supply was used, and the electrode was connected to the negative pole there would be no removal of the surface oxides.

The basic equipment for TIG welding is the same as that used for MMA (SMAW), but with the additions of a torch/electrode holder which can provide a gas supply to the weld area, and additional components with specific functions are also included such as the high frequency unit, DC suppressor, contactor unit, cables and hoses, torch, electrodes, filler wire.

The power source   requires a controllable supply of AC/DC current, anywhere between 1 amp and 300 amps, with an open circuit voltage of between 60 and 100 volts. AC/DC rectifiers, AC only, or DC only power sources with a drooping characteristic supply are required. High frequency unit;The two main functions of this unit are :- 1.) To initiate the arc without the electrode touching the workpiece by means of a high frequency spark thus preventing contamination of the work by the electrode... 2.) To stabilize the AC arc by superimposing a high frequency current on the welding current there by giving positive re-ignition of the arc at the positive/negative changeovers.

Then there is the DC Suppressor unit which is used to suppress the inherent DC tendency of the AC welding arc. When welding aluminium with a tungsten electrode on AC polarity there is a tendency for the current to be changed to DC. This condition (INHERENT RECTIFICATION) increases as the oxide film increases. A DC suppressor unit allows the AC current but prevents what is known as the DC component, thus a suppressor is only necessary when welding aluminium, magnesium, and their alloys.

This is what the question is attempting, and very poorly I might add - to suggest that a suppressor of the wrong type as from rlitman saying [quote]:  "But, as for the term suppressor, it refers to a "DC suppressor".  That is a component that filters the DC out of the waveform, leaving only the AC component intact." .

Well to add to the confusion, the suppressor doesn't really "filter" the DC out of the wave form, because instead, the suppressor actually makes sure that there is enough voltage which forces enough current in the positive half cycle of the AC full cycle, and preventing the positive half cycle from extinguishing the arc as it is quote from Larry: "often quite difficult to reestablish the arc when the colder and less "emissivity" (more resistance) workpiece becomes the cathode.  Because voltage from the power supply is designed to support a relatively low arc voltage arc, it may be insufficient to initiate electron flow. When the arc does not reignite consistently , it becomes destabilized and can cause poor welding performance."

So, that's my observation and author of the question should really take some lessons in Welding power source electrical theory because they got it ALL WRONG!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 09-09-2009 20:23
You've got the function of a capacitor skewed, and misread what I meant using the term "filter".

A capacitor in series with the circuit is a D/C Block Filter, in an electrical sense.

Hook, up a battery to a lightbulb, and place a capacitor in series in the circuit.  The voltage across the bulb will be zero, and the bulb will not light.
Do the same with an A/C power source, and the bulb will light.  In this sense, the capacitor is allowing the A/C current to pass, while blocking the D/C component.  This works, because a capacitor has no true continuity across it, so D/C cannot pass, but the voltage wave of A/C will cause a charging/discharging cycle that will allow an A/C current to "pass" through.
This is a special case of RC "high pass" filters, known as a "D/C Block filter"

Another effect of a capacitive element in a circuit, is to cause the voltage peak, to lag behind the current peak.  That creates an imaginary "reactive" current, which will heat your welder and wires, but not help with welding.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 20:38 Edited 09-09-2009 20:52
Rob,

Are you blind??? What did I just write???

"I said this; "Then there is the DC Suppressor unit which is used to suppress the inherent DC tendency of the AC welding arc. When welding aluminium with a tungsten electrode on AC polarity there is a tendency for the current to be changed to DC. This condition (INHERENT RECTIFICATION) increases as the oxide film increases. A DC suppressor unit allows the AC current but prevents what is known as the DC component, thus a suppressor is only necessary when welding aluminium, magnesium, and their alloys.""

This is what you may have misunderstood what I was trying to point out:

This is what the question is attempting, and very poorly I might add - to suggest that a suppressor of the wrong type as from rlitman saying [quote]:  "But, as for the term suppressor, it refers to a "DC suppressor".  That is a component that filters the DC out of the waveform, leaving only the AC component intact." .

Well to add to the confusion, the suppressor doesn't really "filter" the DC out of the wave form, because instead, the suppressor actually makes sure that there is enough voltage which forces enough current in the positive half cycle of the AC full cycle, and preventing the positive half cycle from extinguishing the arc as it is quote from Larry: "often quite difficult to reestablish the arc when the colder and less "emissivity" (more resistance) workpiece becomes the cathode.  Because voltage from the power supply is designed to support a relatively low arc voltage arc, it may be insufficient to initiate electron flow. When the arc does not reignite consistently , it becomes destabilized and can cause poor welding performance."

In other words, it prevents the AC from becoming DC!!! Otherwise known as suppressing the DC component!!! Please do not twist my words because I did not mean to twist yours!!! In fact, I used your quote to compliment you astute observation which now looks upon mine in a rather obtuse manner!!! The only thing the DC suppressor filters is the even numbered harmonics which is a bit different than preventing a half cycle from occurring in an AC full cycle which needs both a negative as well as a positive half cycle in order to exist in the first place - don't you think??? So, once again your disagreement with my observation is based purely on semantics!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 21:07 Edited 09-09-2009 22:18
Also, When I wrote this:

"So, it is the High Frequency Capacitor (Relatively Large Value capacitor compared to other capacitors except for power factor capacitors) which acts as a suppressor to whoever wrote that question, because it is in fact, a DC suppressor unit, and it is the control circuit that controls the frequency level with respect to how many hertz per half cycle the capacitor discharges by superimposing itself to the main current flow being transferred across the arc."

I meant that the author of the question may have thought that this may have been going on when one is  GTAW on Aluminum using an AC HF power source, so you probably were confused with this also... However, I always tend to reread anything posted on here more than once when I sense some quote or paragraph doesn't make sense before I challenge a poster, and you should do the same as matter of mutual respect!
This .pdf file should clarify things just a bit don't you think??? ;)

http://www.radau5.ch/pdf_files/rectifie.pdf

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 09-09-2009 21:37
Yeah, you're right!  I must be blind.
And I completely agree that my differences with your post were -entirely- based on semantics.
I did re-read your post several times, but I needed a few more.  This thread is getting pretty deep.

That said, the original question looks to me like some textbook editor going through the book said "hey, we should have some questions here", and handed it to some intern.   :)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-09-2009 22:24
Now we're gelling Rob!!! Basically that is more than likely what happened. ;) :) :)

Btw, what part of Long Island are you from??? I ask this because I used to live in Queens many moons ago, and did a "boatload" of welding equipment repair work all over Long Island in the eighties! ;) Good conversing with you!!! ;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 09-10-2009 14:40
Great PDF!  I'm much more familiar with solid state electronics than vacuum tubes.

I live in Nassau County on the south shore, but work in Suffolk on the north shore.  About 30 minutes east of Queens, or so.
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