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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Puddle depth, ESO, and wire speed
- - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 08-04-2003 06:36
1) If the gauge of the material is 14 and the variables are: FCAW-Pro Mig 135, .035 Lincoln, Voltage setting at B and C and wire speed set at 2...how much depth will the puddle have into the base metal?

By cutting up the welds, it appears that it doesn't penetrate more than half of the gauge's thickness. I assumed it would, but it almost appears as if it just skimmed the top. It all appears uniform so I can't tell how much depth the puddle was. I was just wondering because I have welded thin 1/8" beads (trying to figure best bead width for the chairs without having to grind away for days) and I tried breaking the joint and cannot. Well, I'm sure I can, but for "training purposes," I gave it the basic "homegrown" test...smashing the pipe on the cement--just bent pipe so far...so I figure the puddle depth is ok for such a thin bead. I'll probably experiment with more width on the bead because once grinding starts, I'm taking away precious material...Not sure if I'm making sense.

2) I found out the best ESO for tack welding is about 1/4" as opposed to the 3/8"-1/2". What are the disadvantages of doing so? The 1/4" ESO gives me the best tack welds--low and a nice circular shape. If I go 3/8"-1/2" I end up with Mt. Everest. I do, however, use the 3/8-1/2 ESO when it's time to finish the job.

3)Does a higher wire speed magnify the arc's heat? Not sure if that even matters.

WeldingTown, USA and the zip code is ARC!
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 08-04-2003 21:34
I don't have access to a Pro Mig 135 and have never used one so I can't tell you what to set the dials on. I can tell you what I would do in general.

It sounds like you want to increase the penetration of your welded joint. With 14 gauge material it will be easy to burn through but you can try several things. Keep in mind that your adjusting should be gradual and controlled so that you know what differences each change made.
1) You can increase your fit-up gap a bit and maybe use an aluminum back up bar on the other side.
2) Increase your voltage.
3) Decrease you wire feed speed.
4) Travel faster and maybe even incline your plate so that you are welding upwards.
5) Use a combination of any of the previous 4 items.
6) Weld both sides instead of just one side.
7)Set your joints vertical, turn up your volts and amps, and run downhand. (This can be tricky though, and it doesn't sound like you need to try this unless all else fails.)

By holding a 1/4" ESO instead of 3/8 - 1/2 you decreased the current and increased the arc voltage a small amount. That made your tacks penetrate and flatten out. You want to do the same to your welds except that holding such a short ESO will cause more spatter to get into your nozzle and everything will get hotter. It will be harder to see the joint while welding and you might end up putting your contact tip or nozzle into the weld. I would turn up the volts and turn down the wire feed as I mentioned above. Again, make gradual changes.

I wouldn't say higher wire feed speed "magnifies" the heat. It does increase amperage if all else is equal, which means more metal is melted. If too much metal is "piled up" in your bead you will actually insulate the base metal from the arc and limit your penetration. Plus, you can get slag entrapment and other nasty problems. Generally you want to stay on the leading edge of your puddle for penetration. For reduced penetration, allow a little of the puddle to get ahead of the arc.

I don't know if any of that helps or not, I hope so. By having a little "play time" I'm sure you will get the results you want.

Chet Guilford
Parent - - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 08-05-2003 03:26
CHG,

Gracias for the ayuda, the help.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this little big man of a machine. I'm getting better everyday and am learning new things/techniques as I go along.

Thank you for the avenues hometown. I'll bump up the voltage and set the wire as I go, starting slow, cuz slow and steady wins the race...I agree, going step by step in a controlled fashion is the key. I do that in photography, so I can appreciate that advice brother.

Thank you for the help.

Sincerely,

RM

Parent - - By robism (*) Date 08-05-2003 04:41
is that u hometown:)??, this is 84 elcamino from ct. I guess this is a small world. Hey u stole my initials. RM
Parent - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 08-05-2003 04:59
Dang, what a small world huh hometown. Glad to see you here too.

Lots of cool peoples here bro.

CT/RM
Parent - - By Fred Alvarez Date 08-05-2003 07:34
I have always repected Mr. CHGuilford's posts, and this is kind of awkward, but.....

From all the manuals I've seen and personal experience, with a CV power source, a shorter wire stick out increases the amperage. A 1/4" to 3/8" is the recommended electrode stick out for short cuircut GMAW. 1/2" is a little long. The longer electrode stick out decreases the amperage,
making the puddle cooler. From your own observations, the shorter electrode stickout gives you a "nice circular shape" and the longer electrode stickout gives you "Mt Everest".

With short ciurct, the voltage and wire speed should always be adjusted together to provide the maximum number of "short cuircuts". This is that smooth buzzing sound, and will produce a vertually spatter free weld. On your machine, I think you have to adjust the wire speed, because the voltage is set in ranges. Increasing the voltage also means increasing the wire speed for a stable metal transfer. So, running "hotter" also means traveling faster. It also produces smoother beads. For the small welds you trying to make, run as hot as you can handle the travel speed.

Mr. Guilford did mention leaving a gap. Try snipping off a short piece of welding wire, bend it in a V shape and use it as a spacer between the two pieces. Tack one side of the pipe, pull the spacer, make sure the gap is uniform, and tack the other side. Check the gap again, and put in two more tacks at the quarters.

Penetration is really controlled by where the wire is directed onto the puddle. As Mr Guilford said, the lead edge for penetration. If your burning through, you can push a little of the puddle in front of the wire, but not too much. If you carry the wire too far back, you can actually float the puddle right on top and not tie in at all.

Don't angle the gun too much. As your going around a piece of pipe, keep it aimed at the center, maybe angled a little. If you angle the gun too much, you end up with a longer electrode extension.

Use 75/25 shielding gas. The increased amount of CO2 provides a more energized envirement that helps break up surface oxides and allows for better penetration.

If your penetrating half the thickness of 14 gauge, around the circumference of a piece of pipe(tube), it's uniform, and you can't break it beating on the concrete, for your application, your probably doing ok, unless you intend to grind the weld flush.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 08-05-2003 17:10
Fred,
Please don't feel awkward in pointing out something you feel is incorrect, it helps out everyone. If I'm wrong, then everyone gets corrected, including myself, and all can avoid the same mistake in the future.

Chevytown mentioned he was using FCAW unless I misunderstood, so I don't think short circuit metal transfer applies here. Although there are many similarities in technique with FCAW and GMAW. I mentioned that I wasn't familiar with the Pro Mig 135. I didn't mention that I was basing my information on larger machines and larger wire. For most FCAW welding with 0.045" 0.052, and 1/16" diameter, we use 1/2" to 1" ESO. For 0.035" dia. I would use 3/8" to 3/4" but that's just my own preference

I went back and checked with my Lincoln Procedures book. Page 6.4-12 has some info on ESO.
"1. Increasing the stickout decreases the welding current and vice versa."

"2. Increasing the stickout lowers the voltage across the arc. Lower arc voltage increases the convexity of the bead and reduces the tendency for porosity."

"3. Short stickout gives greater penetration than long stickout."

Along with that information, the section says that these comparisons assume that all other parameters are held constant. Also that proper balance between the variables is necessary for best performance.

So while this info doesn't directly say decreasing stickout will increase voltage, it can be inferred from the statements.

Looking back on the original post, Chevytown was talking about pipe and for some weird reason I was thinking of plate in my answer. So obviously, suggestions like welding both sides of the joint are not possible.
Thank you for responding,
Chet Guilford
Parent - - By Fred Alvarez Date 08-05-2003 19:57
My apologies to you Mr Guilford and Chevytown 13. I completely missed the FCAW. An old retired friend of mine has taken up building custom furniture using GMAW, and we've spent quite of bit of time tuning up his welds. I guess I wasn't paying attention.

Your suggestions of increasing the voltage or reducing the wire speed are correct. The 1/2" ESO is also correct.

I have also read that page in Lincoln's manual.
In "1." it states that "increasing the stickout decreases the current". In "2." it states that "increasing the stickout lowers the actual voltage arcross the arc".

You can infer from this that decreasing the ESO increases the current and increases the "actual voltage across the arc".

I don't know what "actual voltage across the arc" means. With a fixed slope CV wire feed machine, when the amperage is increased, the voltage is decreased. There are many references to this in other manuals. On page 139 of Ed Craig's "Welding Parameters", he states, " If you use less than the minimum electrode stick-out, you will use less voltage, less weld energy,........". To an old man, this seems to contradict Lincoln's statement.

Again, I apologize for my previous post.
Parent - By CHEVYTOWN13 (**) Date 08-06-2003 04:14
Hey buddy, no problem.

Perfect high times with all your help hometowns. B-2 was perfect for 16 gauge and C-2.5 was good to go on the 14 gauge. Good penetration. I tried some of the techniques mentioned and I'm cool to say it went all right.

Can't say how much I appreciate the help , the knowledge passed and the time taken from a buisy day!

I'm ordering 16 gague exhaust tubing from Summit. I couldn't find it locally. No muffler shops carry manderal bends. The ones I visited all had pipe bending machines. I practiced today on a 3" OD 16 gauge tubing from Summit that my brother got me many moons ago for the intake manifold set up. The work went very well except where the sawzall got a little crazy or it was my shakey hands! LOL.

Again, very much appreciative.

RM
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Puddle depth, ESO, and wire speed

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