Cummins, What your working to is called "Prevailing Wage Rates ". Basicly it is a rate from the union scales of the area your working ,to give every contractor union or nonunion, a fair shake at bidding federal funded work. The benefit or fringe rate goes for hosp. ins., retirement fund, vacation fund, savings account, etc. If you aren't enrolled in a approved fund YOU MUST BE PAID CASH at that hourly fringe rate. PERIOD Somebody in management in the company your working for has to fill out certified payroll forms, and has to sign their name and title and have notarized. Only then are they turned in to the government watchdog who will review and except or reject which is a needed step in the contractors application for payment.( usuallly due by the 25th of the month for last months progress payment). Some companies act like this is a BIG JOKE ,but it isn't when you sign ,you are swearing that all info. on that form is true . (Just like your tax returns )I saw one contractor get set up by the local union turning him in. They had him under servallence for a year building a case against him then "BAM" come to the jobsite at 10:00 AM and arrested / handcuffed him and when he went in front of a FEDERAL JUDGE got 30 days ,huge fine and blackballed for any govt. work for 5 yrs. ( also had examiners tracking down all employees so he could give them their fair compensation) Also there are inspectors who come to a jobsite and ask or interview the workers there ,questions on how they are being paid ,this is how they catch a majority of violators . The federal law for this is called the Bacon/Davis Act . When I did work like this I found the easiest way to protect myself/company is to photocopy everybodies paycheck made out for PREVAILING WAGE JOB ,before giving them to the employees. This way I had some kind of backup to my statement that I paid the rate. Now I do bigger jobs and alls I have to do is write the union local on the sheet and sign /notarize. On that prevailing wage study sheet that is posted ,at the end is a contact # and name for who is overseeing that job ,they will intercede and straighten out any problems, I think its confidential if you know what I mean, also photocopy your checks to show you haven't been paid right ,but I would expect everybody is being shorted. If you have any more questions let me know I hate co.s that don't play by the rules and profit unfairly. PS. GO STEELERS /DEFENDING SUPER BOWL CHAMPS
Cummins , Also the answer to your fitter/welder question " welder gets paid the rate for the trade he is working .IE( plumber,ironworker,sprinkler,boilermaker,millwright.) There are no special rates for just a Welder
Thanks for that info Smooth Operator. So you get the fringe if your not getting benefits? That part there is still a bit cloudy, don't mean to sound like a boob. Just want to make sure I'm supposed to be getting or not. But for the welder as I said, just something about Welder gets paid at going rate or something like that, nothing about fringe for a welder. Concerned about the fitter thing though. Most of the fitting, well it's about 50/50. Weld some down on the pipe vise and then doing some rolling offsets up in the ceiling, had some vertical offsets near the wall to clear the sprinkler pipes up about 10 feet or more. In the basement, or the "dirt hole" I like to call it that was all done in the dirt. Had an offset to clear a beam for both supply and return instead of a 90 up through the floor. Really cool and I can see some how some stuff ain't perfect, but I am not a fitter, this is my first time fitting pipe so my helper and I keep saying, "not to shabby for a couple guys who don't know what the hell their doing". We still have to tie the pumps in downstairs(when we get them) and run some 4 inch off the street back in the dirt hole, around the corner to the right, then left, left, right, right and we're at the pumps. Probably have some flange's, etc, etc to tie in to pumps.
Either way though, it's good experience and they're letting me run with it which is good. Wife is ticked about the fitter pay but I'm trying to look at it both ways. I've told them I ain't no fitter and they've given me some rope here which will help I hope in future jobs or applications. Really given it my all to make this stuff look good without having to rework stuff, so far so good. I'll post some pics later on.
Any experience is good experience.Even though it might not seem like it is.ANYTHING you can learn on a job is just something that YOU will always have.Good luck with it Shawn.
You should be recieving fitter pay and the fringe benefits on the check. Pipe welders fall under the fitter local's jurisdiction. The company you are working for is doing something which is illegal, as basically they are required to pay you the prevailing wage+benefits.
Non union companies will do this to either:
(A) Bid the job lower in order to get the work knowing they won't be paying full scale to the crafts.
(B) Pocket the extra money and thereby increase profit margins.
The area labor department will be able to straighten this out or contact someone @ the area pipefitters hall.You are owed the full amount of money posted on the board. What this contractor is doing is a direct violation of Davis-Bacon and a Federal offense. The union halls try to police this kind of treatment but it is very hard to do unless they can get a hold of a pay stub, which is the silver bullet to getting your money. Don't allow this unreputable contractor to take advantage of the craftsman.
I understand what your saying on the other hand it is a paycheck....but I do hear ya. Why me, could'nt just be simple. This honesty crap always falls in my F-in' lap and I'm the type to open my mouth......aye. Maybe I'll call the local tomorrow and ask them some questions or find the number on the paper and call it just to confirm, find out what I should be making. They got another job, not scale after this one so hate to get canned for blabbing, especially with the abundance of jobs out there.
Cumminsguy71
Just another 2 pennies worth,,
Document each days work in journal, just a brief description/work history, hours worked, hrs fitting, hrs welding, pounds of welding rod, any direction provided or noteworthy conversations. Someone also mentioned paycheck copies.
When and if its time to stake a claim it will be well worth it.
Fed/State Funded (Davis Bacon) Projects Rates are required to be listed in the "Contract" (usually in the back) by county and classifications. These are often missing for various reasons. Documentaion is usually generated by the Inspector as deemed by the EEOC(State agency). The EEOC officer visits and reviews the Project EEOC Workbook and possibly performs further interviews.
The inspector will do whats called a Wage Rate Interview bi monthly. 10% of the workforce or at least 2 employees from different classifications. The interviews are usually very simple and performed in the field but away from others. The interview has a box for Wage/Fringe amounts plus a place to write a comment and both of you to sign. If your interviewed this is good time to bring up any issues. The inspector is obligated to report any discrepancies to the EEOC and "Should" be willing to help.
The book also has a colum check off for verifing previous interviews/Rates against the "Certified Payrolls" provided to the inspector. Ask to see it? Is the inspector doing his job? They can report problems without your name.
You can request an interview.
The probems with the simple system are almost endless for non union employees.
Low priority for the inspector,, unless there's an issue!
Certified Payrolls are not completely verified as to hrs worked, companies will work you 45 HRS and Pay 40 ect,,, swap classifications.
Certified payrolls not being privided.
Employee to employer kickback.
Small companies/Family businesses sell a short paycheck as job security to their employees,, It works??
Some agencies look the other way, Let's say my bridge program can build 45 Bridges instead of 40 this year???
See where I'm going?
On issues like this I would only let one sleepless night go by before acting.
The best of luck!
Randy
I thought it was something F@#$%D UP like that.I just don't like seeing a man work his A@# off and try his best to do a good job and get SCREWED by outfits like that.But there are outfits like that all over the place.They are always wanting to stick a little more money in their pockets at our expense.Like I said earlier good luck with this SHAWN.
Cumminsguy71,
At this point, I would just say take the money and keep quiet on the job! This includes talking over your financial and pending legal concerns with your helper. Take photographs and or make copies of all your time sheets, pay checks/stubs...the entire check before cashing it (oftentimes smaller companies have handwritten payrole that makes it confusing to cross-reference. When you are winding down on the last day would be the absolute earliest I would make an issue of it. If you stir up the hornets nest now, you're just shooting yourself in the foot (OK pocketbook). They will find some lame reason to fire or lay you off.
You have grounds for Official intervention and if you get canned at this time, you will just loose out on the money you could be making (both in current wages and the backpay from the screw-job they are trying to pull off). A wrongful discharge is another separate issue you need not have to contend with, are difficult to resolve and even harder to get back pay in the settlement.
Hang in there ...good luck to ya, and remember ... Mums the word...
John
Shawn, I agree with Superflux on this. Hang tight for now. This does not sound like a real big (heavily manned) job. It also doesn't sound like it will last a long time. Take all the money you get for now, Learn all you can, Do the Best you can, and- BE HAPPY!! Then, when things are wrapping up, just politely ask them, 'Are you sure you have been paying me the proper rate?' 'Hope you don't mind if I take this up with the local and my accountant?' 'Okay, thanks for the work. Hope to be seeing you later. Bye now.' And head for the door.
Any legal interest will bring out the 'honesty' in companies involved with gov't jobs. But, at that point, don't let them fill you up on baloney. Don't get argumentative, just stand your ground that something isn't right and you intend to let the local union guys take care of it.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Cummin & Welder & Superflux , Going to the union hall isn't going to do squat, the union won't care because it isn't their work. This job is being done Nonunion so they won't care your getting screwed. You have to call the # on the wage scale sheet you saw. The fringe is what gets turned in per hour on union represented jobs to the local hall,this usually comes to 20-30 grand per month for the contractor and it's every month. Sounds like you should be getting the pipefitters rate and also as I stated before YOU ARE OWED THE FRINGE IN CASH which they are probably claiming on the certified payroll sheet they are submitting. You shouldn't worry about turning them in because the govt. will send somebody to do a field interview which will detect any discrepencies in everybodies rates of pay, believe me your not the only one thats getting screwed. PS. GO STEELERS / SUPERBOWL CHAMPS
Do you have the sheet that shows the scale for other countys or the union scale? You will find out the union only helps out union hands. Just remember where you are (TN)when it comes to pay. I do work for companys that come down from Kentucky where the carpenters were making $30.00 an hour and in TN. they get $12.00. I wouldnt feel cheated until you are getting below what is normal pay for our area. Its very common to fit for yourself also. Contractors often wont let me bring a welder and a fitter, but dont mind two welders.
Every state has its own labor laws. As the previous poster mentioned, the union don't give a squat about any nonunion issues or workers. If you get a day off or at the end, you can inquire at your state employment department of fair labor practices. They are the "bargaining representative" pertaining to legal matters for those not union affliated.
Since this might be a prevailing wage issue, there could be legal obligations on the employers part to pay more than you're getting.
There are many ways to get around "Top Dollar". You might find out you have been hired as some level of apprentice.
For now, you're getting pretty good money for OJT.
You'll earn your money when it comes to the pump tie-ins.
Okay, I was the one who threw 'union' into this last part of the conversation. I was thinking of union interests being involved as well even though it is true they more than likely won't step up to help you here, though they really should, and accidently used the word while thinking of other agencies instead. The unions will ultimately lose work as well if this goes without challenge, they still won't help here. Yes, it is POSSIBLE there is no challenge either. 'I' do not have all the facts. Only the few you have given AND I am not a lawyer. As Superflux said, there are other agencies who would be better suited to help you here.
There are many possibilities. But, I would sure be prepared to check things out after the job is done. Make sure of any misunderstandings. There could be good, legal reasons for why you are being paid what you are. Then again, maybe not. Make sure they are performing within all legal boundaries. But as I said before, do so without anger. Do so without burning bridges behind you. A proper approach with properly worded questions can do alot.
Have a Great Day, Brent
By swsweld 
Date 10-11-2009 20:06
Edited 10-11-2009 20:08
State: North Carolina
Construction Type: Building
County: Cumberland County in North Carolina.
BUILDING CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS (does not include residential
construction consisting of single family homes and apartments
up to and including 4 stories).
Modification Number Publication Date
0 02/08/2008
1 07/25/2008
2 07/24/2009
* SUNC1994-001 10/24/1994
Rates Fringes
Bricklayer.....................$ 12.50
Carpenter
_(including drywall
hanging, acoustical
tile installation and batt
insulation).................$ 9.08
Cement mason/concrete
finisher.....................$ 8.43
Electrician....................$ 9.71
Glazier........................$ 8.77
Insulator/asbestos worker
_(pipe).....................$ 10.42 .63
Ironworker, structural.........$ 10.76
Laborer, general...............$ 7.25
Painter, brush.................$ 7.90 .04
Plumber........................$ 10.28
Roofer.........................$ 7.25
Sheet metal worker
_(including HVAC duct work).$ 9.36
Soft floor layer...............$ 12.00
Truck driver...................$ 7.25
HVAC-Heating & A/C Mechanic......$ 9.26
----------------------------------------------------------------
WELDERS - Receive rate prescribed for craft performing
Here are the North Carolina minimum rates. This is from a military project. How 'bout them painter and asbestos worker fringes?
Living large.
You need to know who is the contracting agent, COE, DOD, DOE, etc. This will be listed on the pay rate sheet. Keep copies of everything as stated above. If you are interviewed by the inspector/gov PM, you need to tell him you are being paid below scale. WRITE HIS NAME DOWN and the date you had the interview. This is one of those things the inspector can get his fuzzies in a vice if THEY do not report it. If you are interviewed, you should be given a interview form to sign. GET A COPY OF THIS.
If the contractor is submitting a certified payroll and is not paying scale, they are in deep kim chee. If they bid the job and got it because they did not figure in fringes, too bad.
The contracting agent will come back at them with their hold out. The inspector/PM report is not to be shown to the contractor. Again, fuzzies and vice thing.
If your contractor is paying less than PW, it is just like and has similar penalties to not sending the IRS employee witholdings.
Bad JuJu
BigK , Thats something I didn't even think of, if Cummins is being shorted that cash amount ,what he's short isn't having taxes taken out of it. A BIG NO-ON with our bloated need every penny we can get gov.. Also just tip of iceberg because now your workmans comp. isn't being accuratley calculated. PS. GO STEELERS AND PENS . PITTSBURGH VOTED BEST CITY FOR SPORTS TEAMS BY SPORTING NEWS MAGAZINE.
Some of what I found out, the pipefitter class says, pipefitter(other than hvac) $27 plus $11 fringe. However what I'm making is what the plumber is making....$19 plus $5 something fringe. According to the local pipefitters the chill pipe and hot water pipe is not considered hvac but I don't really know. No number of any sort listed on the pay scale sheet. Teach at the school says I should be making more money due to the layout, fitting etc and the 4 pumps yet to come with diffusers, flanges, etc that it appears I'll be fitting.....not to mention the start of day one of Mirror welding 101!!! Yikes!!!
All and all I keep telling myself I'll take pictures of all the piping run, the installed pumps and all that junk and when it comes resume time and someone asks I can say I did this on my own with no prior experience....so what could I do with more experience or working with someone more seasoned. Plus their flexible, got a call from one of my gas companies and they need me to come out and put that regulator station in and a few other things which will get me a couple days on the rig and the company I'm doing the single hand for said, "no problem, go ahead and do what you need to". So, can't beat that!
Thanks for all the info though, so much stuff to learn besides the welding part!!
Any tips on a good mirror that won't get destroyed the first time by 6010????
I used to have a mirror with the large 4-1/4" squarish clear cover plates with electrical tape along the edges and then attached to 3 one foot long strands of 1/8" solder inside shrink sleeve and attached to a magnet on the other end. It can be twisted and manipulated in to just about any position.
I also prepare several rods by cutting them in half and carefully grinding a point on them without damaging the flux (the hard part!). This allows the arc to be struck and fire up quickly with minimal sticking problems.
And of course left is right and right is left. Always do a dry run with out the arc first to "train" yourself to the reverse image thing
That's my mirror welding 101 Cliff Notes version.
The crummy part of the deal is...it is already a bummer of a spot work in without the inconvenience of the mirror thing.
If at all possible, Don't use the mirror! I've found that unless you are accomplished at mirror welding...you're most likely going to make as pretty of a bead welding BLIND. Close your eyes strike arc and listen. Just be ZEN, become one with the weld and seek the innner JEDI that lurks deep in your soul young Skywalker.
Hi Cumminsguy71!
Glad it turned out well for you in the end!!! ;) :) :)
Now as far as mirrors are concerned... You need to think about where to place your mirror away from in relation to where most of the spatter from the E6010 is falling towards
Take it from me who knows a thing or two about breaking enough mirrors to have more bad luck in one lifetime that I shouldn't have any luck at all left to be alive - no less than receive the Gift of life with a Liver Transplant in 1997, beat cancer once already, and just about ready to kick it's arse again once I'm finished with this round of Chemoterapy!!!
Trust me, you can make the mirror last for quite some time as long as you think of the proper placement, proper angle, and learn to think backwards by always looking to make sure that your arc length is short and sweet and if you start to lose control, just stop!!! Don't try to burn as much of the rod as you possibly can while sacrificing the quality of the weld - CAPECHE???
I know what you mean about breaking those mirrors, because I must've broke around forty or fifty mirrors since I first learned and each one amounts to seven years of bad luck!!!
And if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all!!! :) :) :)
Respectfully,
Henry
Well Good Luck Henry on your treatment! Hopefully you'll be back at it before long. Thanks for the mirror advice. My main thing, 2nd time today mirror welding, is watching it to control my puddle and arc. The movement thing so far(big two times! Ha Ha!) has not been an issue. Seems my arm knows what it needs to do and if I can keep my eyeballs and brain out of the picture I can get it done. My brain kicked in once and I was doing the left...no right thing and stopped. I had about 3.5" between the wall and the pipe and was only left with a spot about 1.5-2" long on the root that I could not really see. Luckily this is just chill pipe at around 25-30psi I think is what they said so nothing crucial just don't want the water spicket effect. I was able to run the root then get a worn out grinding wheel in behind and knock it down then run a hot pass over it then a cap. Cap was not horrible bad, actually looked like a cap should except it was a bit on the tall side in the middles. I've been working on doing as much on the stands so I did not have to use the mirror but it was unavoidable, actually think I may have one more in the corner. Almost looks like one of those 6GR's without the top part of the restriction.....it's my fault. Always telling myself I love a challenge...and here I am in a hole welding through mirrors. Be awhile before I go pluggin at steam pipe, nuke junk...actually prefer not to but this little taste and I've got to thinking it would not be so bad I guess.
Thanks again for the info, I'll have to try the plastic over the mirror thing. I thought about just a plain clear lens in the small or large sizes, just so you can keep the mirror clean. Mine is a bit spotty after today and the corner cracked! Glad it was free! Next week we go outside, they want to run the sch.40 all the way out to the mainlines instead of using plastic.....I don't know??? We made it with our 4" supply to the mechanical room today and left it open waitin on the pumps to arrive......sometime???
Oh, tried to snap a pic of my mirror weld but my mirror, well, not so good to look at anymore and the flash from the cam blinds the picture down in our dungeon.
I guess bad luck is better than worse luck. I must have broken a few too many mirrors along the way Myself, and I wasn't even using them while welding.
I like using a large size gold plate lens with a clear lens taped to it. The gold reflects very well and i've got two, one with a magnet and one on a flexshaft. Work very well and no breakage like a mirror
we have these plastic mirrors at work but there basicly a one time deal and then pitch em
Yep right o,
Been there done it as far as the Welder or fitter whereas pay is concerned, in the fitters union everyone is classified a "Fitter" welding is considered a specialty talent as is not compensated for monetarily.
Fringe benes should be on the check in addition to the hourly wage. Sounds like the boys working for a real ratty outfit.
I got on cause I did some work through another company, a staffing service that put me with these folks. They did'nt want to pay the staffing service so they wanted to "hire" me as a punch the clock employee. I told them that was fine but when the job was done.....so was I. I was able to sneek off for two days this week and finish of a regulator station for one of the gas companies, real cool stuff. Worked along side some big boys from a large outfit and gotta say, they were great. Helpful, gave advise, suggestions.
Anyhow, so with the freedom to go out on my own jobs it's ok I guess, but I still wonder if I'm supposed to be making that $38/hour, I'm losing $600/week which is really sticking in my head especially since I'm fitting the shi......and welding it, with mirrors, laying off in tiny azz holes, and now, gonna be outside laying in a ditch welding this 4" for about 100' then have to tie into the mainlines. Their ditch they dug is a bit shody, maybe 36" wide and 10 feet deep and they're saying I can climb in there......I'm saying they need to slope the bank back or get a the proper shoring for the sides, I ain't going out like that. This is exactly why I DO NOT like to work for other people as an "employee". Always about the bottom line and whats going in their pocket, not worried about blue collar joe getting killed. Collecting their money each week, building up my experience.
All I can say Shawn is that you have a great attitude (at least I like it)
In the big picture this won't matter much.
The cream rises to the top.
The big boys were good to you for a reason.
IF YOUR WORKING THESE JOBS ON YOUR OWN AND SUPPLYING A MACHINE YOU NEED TO BE CHARGING MORE THAN WAGES!!!!!!!!!!DEMAND PROPER SHORING OR DRAG UP!!!!!!The 100 feet of line your working on I'm assuming is tieing into an existing underground header? or is it a under the road affair where the ends jump up to an above ground pipeway?If so weld it together and throw it in the ditch,if not get the shoring or drag,works work but not if it kills you.I'd get it part of the way done and demand more money to finish it.I know a guy that pulled that manuever on a king crab boat,a bow thruster installation that was done with the boat in the water because a haulout is pretty expensive.The guy Had them load the pots as high as they could on the stern,pumped the rear hold full of water,the bow raised up out of the water and he cut the holes for the thruster,He demanded the rest of the money for the job and a bonus before he finished.He got it.The rest of the work being done on the boat?The fishermen left town without paying up the bills.
Bottom line this cracker jack outfit your working for sounds to me unsafe and it sounds as if their estimator doesn't quite understand the regulations involving underground work.Stand your ground or potentially be on the national news as a number in a construction accident like the guy who rode the 125 foot manlift to the ground earlier this week in P.A.Dead as a wedge.
I'm working single hand on this one F-17, the wages are on my mind as stated before but I'm not big experienced guy so the fitting experience and of course more welding goes to my benefit even if I may or may not be getting shafted on the wages.....but still in my head. Plus have to plumb in 4 pumps and get everything identical, probably sounds like a snap for the seasoned vet fitter or welder/fitter combo but for the guy doing it for the first time.......using up some brain power BUT getting it done. The guy helping me is clueless as far as the fitting/welding goes but good guy for company.
Yeah, agree with the manlift situation. The super's kind of a odd sort on this job but I figure I could go about this in a round about fashion. I'll ask him a question about what type of guidlines there are to climbing down in that ditch as far as safety etc, or merely get him out to look at the whole and ask if he'd let a man get down in there, get him to looking at it and he'll take care of the rest without me saying a word or very few. This way I still remain innocent in the eyes of the employer....not that I'm against pizzing off an employer, done it more times than I can count but this place has some gas pipe to run in about a month or two so I'm gonna ride this cash cow til it's out if you follow me. Meanwhile I stay safe, keep them happy with my work, keep doing good work and hope for more contact with the "big boys" from the gas companies and hopefully get my 51' shorty going off their dime.....hehehe.
OSHA says 1'-1' slope on any ditch deeper than 3' or trench boxes/shoring is required. You are describing a DEADLY situation going into a ditch that deep & narrow without any support. For your families sake do not work in conditions that you have to second guess.
thanks spgtti, I knew there was some ratio, learned it in the OSHA 30 class but could not remember it off hand.
I will look the other direction on a lot of the osha stuff. The 100% tie off, tieng off ladders, walking iron that sort of thing but one thing i will not look the other way on is unsafe excavation and working below grade in and un reinforced trench with little to no shoring.
Being buried alive is a horrible way to go out. sounds like your on a fairly large project and it would be a drop in the bucket to get you a proper trench plate setup.
