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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / CWI Qualifing himself on a procedure
- - By Austin Kenney Date 10-07-2009 01:19
I have been a AWS CWI for ten years and am a welding instructor and have 30 years welding experience and have Qualified many times on many different WPS's I have been asked in the past could I certify my self. I asked some one (an Engineer ,I don't remember his name) But they said that I could Qualify myself as long as I had a wittness to say that I had done the welding.So I went ahead and did it I took the welding test did the testing and passed the test.When I presented them on the job the person in charge said I couldn't do somthing like that and pulled my papers. At first I agreed that it seemed a little odd and maybe it wasn't ethical but after I thought about it for a while I realized he was in a sense saying he couldn't trust that I had done the weld test or if I had tested it corectly (without predice) They acceped two other sets of papers on other welders I tested the same day. I guess what I am saying if I was going to Lie about the results which I would never do I could have done so with them as well.  anyway can you tell me if it is ok to test your self and also sighn off on it with a witness?
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 10-07-2009 10:08
Ethics is a tough nut.
What is your position with the place are you welding again and have taken your cwi hat off.
The WQR's should be approved by the E.O.R. not the person in charge. If He is in charge a simple production test for him should prove your abilities.
There are ethics for welders too, to strive to produce sound weld conforming to the codes and specifications of the project.
Good Luck
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-07-2009 11:46 Edited 10-07-2009 11:49
The witness doesn't need to be a CWI according to D1.1:2008 Clause 4, para 4.1.2.2. Any representative of the company can witness and sign off on the WQR....I would have someone else sign and witness the testing just to keep the sideways questioning down if the welding records are getting reviewed and approved by a customer.

edit: I had another CWI here at our company test me, for this very reason.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 10-07-2009 13:17
It isn't that you would lie on your certification papers. 
The issue is that someone else did lie on their papers (someplace, somewhere, sometime, .....). 
So now, it is difficult to feel comfortable accepting self-certifications for anyone.  (I'm not a thief, so why is there a lock on your door?)

It may or may not be OK - depending on contract requirements, etc- but having someone else do it for you eliminates questions.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-07-2009 21:52
One solution is to have someone else, maybe your 6 year old son, witness the test, perform the bend tests, evaluate the bends, and sign the paper. You will have to tell him what to do, but there is no requirement in the structural welding code or ASME, or API, or NAVSEA standards that says the person witnessing the welding, doing the bend testing, evaluating the bends, or signing the papers has to be a CWI.

Good luck - Al
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-08-2009 03:41
I guess nepotism isn't an ethics issue....
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-10-2009 07:55
AL  

Oh jeez do I love that reply!!!!!!!

Best regards
Tommy
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-09-2009 16:28
Austin

I do not see anything wrong with a CWI certifying himself by performing the welding on a Welding Procedure Qualification Test, or even a welder performance qualification test.   In my state, the owner of the company has to certify the welder.  I was the owner and the welder.   While I was not a CWI when I welded up the procedure qualification coupons, I always certified myself.  At the time, I did not have the capability of performing the mechanical tests or the radiography for myself, so when I submitted my WPSs WQRs and WPQRs, for evaluation by the customer, they could see that the testing had been done by a recognized testing lab.  What they couldn't verify, was that I was the one who actually did the welding, and that the parameters I claimed, were actually followed.  They could tell the number of passes from the Macro-etch specimens, and possibly determine if I had a pass laid down that was way out of parameters.  However, no one ever questioned it.

I did an aluminum conductor pipe welding job for an electrical contractor, based on my own self certified procedure tests, using my own machine.  That contract required that  all the welds pass Radiographic Testing, and when the job was done, my production welds all passed.  A few months later, the same contractor wanted me to qualify an aluminum pipe welding procedure for HIS company, using his engine drive and spool gun.  I failed miserably!  I couldn't get it to work, no matter what I did.  I tried for two days!  Very embarrassing!  When I went home, I tried it again with my own engine drive and my Cobramatic wire feeder, and passed radiography!  But the damage was done, and I never got to work for that contractor again!  So, I don't want to blame it on the equipment, but...

As a member of the Ethics Committee, I can say that I do not believe it is any kind of ethics violation per the QC-1 for you to qualify and certify yourself.  I know that it would be better if there were a third party witness, and many clients require that you perform the welding in front of their representative.  (Most D.O.Ts)  

As a consultant for a private bridge owner, I once rejected the WPQRs and then the WPSs and the WQRs of a company because the paperwork was not filled out correctly, and the travel speed parameters that they listed did not fit within the essential variable limits of the D 1.5 Bridge Code!   That State, which also had to approve the work,  agreed with my assessment.   The CWI who filled out the paperwork and actually welded one of the coupons himself, was an old D 1.1 man, and didn't have a clue about the differences between D1.5 and D1.1.   That fact still didn't stop him from being very POed.  So, the company performed another series of weldments witnessed by the State Highway representative, and the new test parameters were so wild that I couldn't believe it when both the Minimum heat input and the maximum heat input coupons passed!  (Even the elongation at 23 KJ per inch) There, during the new testing, the State Highway rep. observed the welding, AND the coupon testing, so there was no question!

So, I say that you can qualify and certify yourself, but the client is not obligated to accept these qualifications and certifications.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-10-2009 08:10 Edited 10-10-2009 08:20
[deleted]
Parent - - By Ke1thk (**) Date 10-12-2009 14:39
Austin,

I write our PQR’s and usually weld the test samples, and I’m a CWI.  I send them to a lab for NDT (Level III inspector) or destructive testing (AWS, CWI).  I cut and bend welder qualifications myself. 

I’m audited at least three times a year by different customer’s including the Government, major Defense contractors, automotive, and ASQ/ISO.  They understand my process and haven’t said a word.  I’ve been doing it this way for over 10 years.

I don’t see anything wrong it.  Al’s write, I’ve never seen in a code where only a CWI must perform all the steps of a process.  I’ve even seen some codes that allow the CWI to train and assign “helpers” to aide with inspection. 

Good Luck,

Keith
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-12-2009 14:45
Ke1thk,

How do you meassure amps, volts and later calculate the heat input, when you are welding the coupon yourself?

3.2
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-12-2009 16:06
Depending on the applicable welding standard, they may be nonessential variables. Think ASME Section IX.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-12-2009 16:11
Al,

So you weld a coupon, tear it to pieces with various mechanical tests - but you dont know the most(?) important parameters?
I have not used section IX for long time :)

3.2
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-12-2009 16:26
You hit the nail on the head my friend. Now you see where I'm coming from with several of my rants regarding what "should" be recorded on PQRs and what "should" be listed in a WPS. There are times when "common sense" and codes seemingly collide.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 10-15-2009 13:37
As others have indicated, I think its "OK". It does raise some questions but in most cases, the proof is in the welding. You come to me with papers self documented, I'm gonna watch you weld some. If its all good, then I have no basis for not considering the documentation as valid. A 2nd witness would always be helpful signed on the papers but even then, if there is reason to question your abilities, you re-test.  I work as a contractor and will also try to have someone else witness the test if at ALL possible.

One thing I have often considered that may or may not be practical for some is documenting the welding of the coupon by video. Cameras are cheap. The documentation is stronger in my opiniion. And it gives the reviewer the opportunity to "Witness" the test.

The video idea in my opinion could be expanded to test labs/training centers etc. Video is now cheap. A guy walks into the booth. Camera starts, welding is observed, proctor/witness uses 2nd camera or the original to document the final condition of the weld etc..

Video and supporting written documentation are stored with access via internet for anyone wanting the individuals record of qualificaqtion. Great for ASME qualification requiring the test be "Witnessed" by the "Manufacturer or Contractor". Kinda like the commonarc without all of the inspectors following each other off the cliff.

Gerald Austin
www.weldingdata.com
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-15-2009 13:43
Interesting idea, documenting with the camera. I like it.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / CWI Qualifing himself on a procedure

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