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- - By darren (***) Date 11-19-2009 10:04 Edited 11-19-2009 10:19
there are many different levels or perspectives on "socialism" and some are my dire enemy as are they are also the enemy of the participants of this forum. but what is socialism?
i believe that when the founding fathers spoke of the possibilities of a new way, a declaration of independence it was confounding to many.
i also realize my "liberal" views have been recieived with little favour on this forum regardless of my continual reference to that great and laudible document the declaration of independance and its amendments.
i also believe that if one or all are able to put down the rhetoric and dogma that they were taught and search their very self that they may in fact find that the intent of the founding fathers and authors of these aformentioned documents did not in fact have hate or contempt or revolt in their hearts but hope, hope for a place where the widow and orphan were safe, hope were truth and justice were a real observible experience and not some book on a shelf of some esoteric proffessor, where an honest man could more or less find a way in his society to provide for his family, love his friends and community and in essence love his god by his acts of loving his creation.
so when i read the rhetoric, the pain , the anguish of my many a brethren here on this forum and try and digest where does such venom come from i continiously conclude the same answer, disinformation.
we are fed it like molasses and corn to hogs, we are lied to in a fashion that can only be described as beyond belief.
we are all in fact brothers, sisters of each other and we have been indoctorinated into believing we are seperate, when in fact we are all one, children of a great and almighty father with an infinite measure of compassion , forgiveness and understanding.
so this socialism vs capitolism, this us vs them this duality we are sold to control us ......how do i put it in words that we are all brethren sistren we are all the same and until we can forgive our trespasses as we for give those who trespass against us, we will be controlled by this dualistic mechanism. taught to argue amongst ourselves instead of seeing the real truth that we are in the throes of those who wish to not only control us but abolish us.
we are greater in number and power and we shall overcome this blight on humanity but we must first tolerate then associate then support each other in the assertian that we are all within gods scope and love and until we unite with a peaceful inclusive sysytem of humanity, those that wish to control us will do so and we will be the fodder of their ploy.
sorry for the diatribe but i just have had enough of the bickering amongst men and women whom in actuality love each other or they woudnt even be here.
just because my overindulgence was discomforting please do not let it stop you from enjoying fdrs amazing speach
yours truly
darren

Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union[1]:

    It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

    This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

    As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

    Among these are:

    The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

    The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

    The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

    The right of every family to a decent home;

    The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

    The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

    The right to a good education.

    All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

    America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

Franklin D. Roosevelt, Thirty-Second U.S. President, 1933-1945

Franklin D. Roosevelt was born on January 30, 1882 at Hyde Park, New York. He attended Harvard University and Columbia Law School. On St. Patrick's Day, 1905, he married Eleanor Roosevelt. Roosevelt entered public service through politics, serving in several state and federal positions before being elected Governor of New York in 1928. In the summer of 1921, at the age of 39, he was stricken with poliomyelitis. Demonstrating indomitable courage, Roosevelt fought to regain the use of his legs, particularly through swimming. Roosevelt received the three degrees in Masonry within Holland Lodge No. 8 located in New York City in 1911. During his lifetime he was supportive of Freemasonry and somewhat active in the fraternity. He was elected President in November 1932 to the first of four terms spanning the Great Depression to World War II. His tenure as President was a period of great social and political change in the United States. Assuming the Presidency at the depth of the Great Depression, he brought hope to the American people as he promised prompt, vigorous action, and asserted in his Inaugural Address, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, Roosevelt directed organization of the Nation's manpower and resources for global war. During this period he directed the war effort but also contemplated the planning of a United Nations in which international difficulties could be resolved. As the war drew to a close, Roosevelt's health deteriorated, and on April 12, 1945, while at Warm Springs, Georgia, he died of a cerebral hemorrhage at the beginning of his fourth term as President.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 11-19-2009 11:12
darren
Across the United States most have these rights. Because of some and their laziness and the convenience of freebies they don't exercise them.
If we talk of equality when are we going to see it the other way. I have been turned away from jobs especially government jobs because "we have to hire a minority" is the reply.
We definitely aren't equal when it comes to federal loans and housing.
I believe in helping my brother, sister, and neighbor, but I don't do this necessarily by giving them money. To do it to Godly standards before I can give them anything I have to know them well enough to be sure that the gift is a builder of their life not just a crutch to lean on.
True Love is saying no.
The Second Bill of Rights was a proposal made by United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt during his State of the Union Address on January 11, 1944 to suggest that the nation had come to recognize, and should now implement, a second bill of rights. Roosevelt did not argue for any change to the United States Constitution; he argued that the second bill of rights was to be implemented politically, not by federal judges. Roosevelt's stated justification was that the "political rights" guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had "proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness." Roosevelt's remedy was to create an "economic bill of rights" which would guarantee:
A job with a living wage
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
A home
Medical care
Education
Recreation
These are available now if you want to be a participating member of this country.
Marshall

Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:30
i suggest re reading the post and taking the time to digest it.
i am well versed in rhetoric and if again you were to reread the post you would find the subtle inferences.
this is not my first  bar be que
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 11-20-2009 14:16
darren
I re-read your post, Maybe I am dumber than a box of rocks.
Maybe I am too Stoic in my philosophies.
But I ask is this good Rhetoric?
"how do i put it in words that we are all brethren sistren we are all the same and until we can forgive our trespasses as we for give those who trespass against us, we will be controlled by this dualistic mechanism. taught to argue amongst ourselves instead of seeing the real truth that we are in the throes of those who wish to not only control us but abolish us."
Sounds more like ramblings of darren.
We are all Brothers and sisters but we are not all the same. Some believe and some don't. So even tho we are brothers and sisters we will never all see the universe the same.
Are you saying that I have to forgive myself as I do those who trespass against me, I say you should forgive others as you would want them to forgive you, as Jesus instructed.
I can not forgive myself, what would be my reward from me, isn't all that there is from God, and If you Believe, you should know that the only forgiveness that matters is that from God. maybe you just need to work on your spell checking abilities maybe you ment until we can forgive our trespassers as we forgive those who trespass against us, maybe you are practicing double rhetoric I guess. Lol  And your subtle inferences go right over my head, I think you are trying to derive a logical conclusion from premises you believe are known or assumed to be true and in reality they are not
If you want I can give you a good Texas dry rub for your pork loin, the next time you bar b que.
Marshall
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 19:48
i dont eat fundemental pork ;)
the conclusion is
inclusion, sharing and forgiveness instead of exclusion, greed and contempt.
well you caught the twist on words so i geuss you dont have to preface yout response with self depracating build up or down as the case may be.
yes i do believe we have to forgive ourselves for our mistakes.
isnt all of this the ramblings of someone?
reality is plastic at best a delusion at minimum (see quantum mechanics)
i think we are headed for  the same destination but perhaps tack and jib differently.
make it a nice salmon or some steak and i'll even host.
darren
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 11-20-2009 20:18
darren
if it is Salmon you would have to host as there is none worthy of my palate around here.
Have a safe weekend
Marshall
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-19-2009 13:19
If "rights" are God given....  :::here it comes:::  Than men and governments cannot take them away.

Defining "rights" with wisdom goes a long way to understanding some of our differences.

Right to education:::  I pulled my Son out of public school and my wife and I educated him ourselves...  He is now laboring for his PHD in a fine TA/ship, earning his doctorate in a way that will not leave him with years of student loans.    I was free to do this..  Not expecting the government to parent or educate my son.  The right to education is not one whit more than that.

Right to adaquite health care?  There are no shortages of hospitals or doctors..  Nobody is turned away..   It is foolish to expect that people unwilling to work or have lives dominated by drugs are going to recieve excellence in health care.

The right for every family to have a decent home...........  Well this is a tough one...   Even when the government provided subsidized housing in the many projects around the nation... The people who lived there often squandered this gift and turned them into dangerous, drug filled places of squallor.

I will agree about our brotherhood/sisterhood..   We are all sinners in a fallen world..  With selfish hearts...  This is why utopian plans do not work.

We may all be "within God's scope and love"   But most are in rebellion to Him.  God never promised a happy shared utopia with people in rebellion to him... Quite the contrary.    This is the key.
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:32
i could not agree with you more on the topic of inalienable rights.
trial and tribulation is our course and labour is our lot
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:43
free will
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-20-2009 13:07
Darren

Something special just for you  :)

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-19-2009 16:24
Darren, I thank you for both your introduction and thought as well as the except from the one of the few presidents that knew how things needed to be.  I'm sure I will be the only one here that will go 100% with FDR on this one.  You might have heard the old addage, "Give a man a fish then you'll feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you'll feed him forever". 
That is an ideal that needs to be elaborated on.  This is how America works, "If you give a man a fish to feed him for the day, somebody will ***** that you spent tax "my tax money to give him a fish?"  So you give him a fishing pole, but you don't teach him to use it, or you give him a pole, teach him to use it, but there are no ponds left that he can fish in, so you have to give him more fish, then people will keep *****ing."
"We don't want you on the Gov't system because its OUR tax money, but we don't want you to take a job that I want because you're a minority with similar skills."  That's how it works here.

The best schools in my area are in the suburbs.  The nicest schools, highest paid teachers and best grades in the state.  The inner city schools are run down, horrible low paid teachers with minimal graduation numbers.  So whats the problem then, "my kids go to the good schools".  The inner city kids deserve the same, equal right to a good education that anyone else does.  "We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure."  FDR said it best right there.

But as long as the other 2/3, 4/5 or 9/10 are well-fed, well-dressed, well-housed and secure, then they don't give a damn about the other 1/3, 1/5 or 1/10 of their fellow Americans.

Anyway good show with this one.  I'm sure we'll have alot of people disagree here but they are not one of the 1/3, 1/5 or 1/10......YET!!! 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-19-2009 18:09
I've eaten the government cheese with grattitude.  Never felt the government was obligated to give it to me.

Bryon... I think you will find if you really look, that more dollars per student are spent in urban areas and the inner city. (Washington DC, Detroit and Philly are good examples, look em up)   The "nicest schools" are nicest because the students attending them do not destroy them.

You will also discover that salary scales for teachers in urban areas are similar or better than rural public schools. (stronger unions).  The underpaid inner-city teacher rhetoric is just that...  That being said.. (aggrigate salaries are generally lower in inner-city schools because teachers are often on the lower end of the *senority* scale)........

The reasons the inner city schools produce lower student performance numbers is more related to family structure... A broken/toxic home is a hard place for most youngsters to excell.. and no amount of money pumped into schools and no super-teacher can fix that problem... Govt. can't fix broken homes.

If somebody gets the job instead of me because they are more qualified.. no beef... If the determining factor has anything to do with skin color, gender or ethnicity... Thats a problem.
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 11-19-2009 21:42
My niece teaches at a St Paul Minnesota (inner) city middle school. There are always problems with the multi-cultural clans.  This is middle school, it has armed guards and one of the hall Monitors was severly beaten by several kids.  The reason I brought that up is because my niece gets $8000 extra pay per year for Combat pay .  She is well qualified to work anywhere she wants but greed or the 8 grand keeps her teaching. I would asume its the same a lot of other places in the US.

The money spent does come from tax based revenues or at least a percentage of it. 

Off target?
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-19-2009 23:29
I'll say one thing for sure is that you really spinned this thread off kilter a tad with that one!!! ;)

Most teachers do want to teach no matter how long they've been doing it, but it's when the administrators start to inject politics into the the pot is when things begin to lose focus on what is their most important objective which is to give the best quality education to any student that walks through their doors regardless of their economic, ethnic or social circumstance! The problem is really easy to fix, but no one has the political will to implement the solutions without compromising so much so that nothing really gets accomplished as a result!!! Change the rules of adittance and continued participation within the public school system whereby they are designed to send a tough, strong, yet compassionate message much like hte Armed forces does with their rules and regulations...

In other words, any potential student will be offered a world class education provided that they sign on to some very simple yet thorough rules and regulations once they decide to advance beyond the third grade IMHO! If they refuse, the parents have the option to either home school them, or to send them to private school, or to special disciplinary schools where the student is immersed in a totally engulfed and confined environment much like the very same schools we already have for incorrigible students in a normal academic setting...

They would be given the opportunity to transfer back to a normal school setting once they prove that they could do so through vigorous screening methods, and if they cannot do so, would then be required to serve two years in the military in order to teach them more discipline and responsibility as well as understanding the importance of knowing the consequences of their actions as opposed to the current wrist slapping style of discipline which is implemented in public schools today!

Bring back the draft!!! In other words, every able bodied oyung American citizen would be required to serve regardless of ecomomic, social or academic status - PERIOD!!! In other words, no exceptions, no special despensations like what was done in the old system... Everybody pay their dues unless they are so handicapped that it would risk further disability!!!

There also needs to be a complete overhaul in the way the schools are administered as well, and it should start with schools that show underachieving performance to poor performance in not only test scores, but also in overall comprehensive performance and student/teacher retention, eliminate the current methodology used to give tenure to teachers as well as changing the rules which would give more emphasis towards the teachers to maintain their tenure by continually earning it periodically as well as implementing new measures to make it easier for the school systems to take away the privilege of tenure in order to make sure that bad teachers are more easily dismissed from the system and basically creating an environment that makes sure that the cream does indeed rise to the top, and stays there via merit as opposed through seniority as it is currently implemented. In other words, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE AS WELL!!!

We MUST also let the parents know that it is their responsibility as well to help in educating their children by implementing punitive measures through monetary punishment to enforce discipline as well as rewarding parents for exhibiting their commitment to teaching their children both discipline and responsibility...

Should the parents show that they will not buy into this system, they will be warned vigorously that they will lose custody of their children as well as be taxed extra for letting their children become proverbial wards of the state... In other words, making it quite clear to the parents that they will be punished if they do not become active, responsible participants as well as the possibility of losing their children if they do not show a commitment in developing their child's behavior as well by getting rid of the most ridiculous laws that are current in which parents cannot enforce discipline in their own homes which would be currently interpreted as child abuse!!! In other words, reinstitute corporal punishment both in the home as well as in the school!!!

Many more measures need to be implemented in order to fix the system!!! It doesn't mean that the system will be perfect, but it will be much better than the present system we have now!!! I could continue writing more and more about my own opinions regarding what needs to be implemented in order to reinvigorate our country to make it what it once was, but I am considered a nobody to the current system of local, state and federal politics, so nothing can really be implemented unless those political systems are also changed in such a manner that brings back the input of the common man into the political system again beyond just being able to vote!!!

So, if there isn't a total change in the way things are done, there is no hope in improving any aspect of the current malaise we now are familiar with regarding the way all of the various agencies in all of the governments work at the present time in this country meaning it's time to get real tough or else we will be nothing more than the equivalent fate of the Roman Empire which we already are traveling towards a very parallel path of demise!!! It's not too late, yet we're running out of time FAST!!!

Respectfully,
henry  
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-20-2009 02:26
Bryon, Go spend a day at those city schools and see the disrespect  and disruptfulness of so many of the kids there. These kids make it impossible for the teachers to hold a proper class, or the few "good" kids to learn anything.

I doubt even a liberal such as Yourself would condone thier behavior, and I am pretty sure You wouldn't let Your kids act this way.

There is a breakdown in family structure responsible for this. The parents of these kids are slacking on the responsibility to properly raise kids.

I don't think the Govt. can do a whole lot to resolve these problems without the cooperation of the affected people.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-20-2009 02:36
Those are the schools that I went to.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:45
why is it always about bryon, he has hijacked more threads than.....
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-20-2009 14:39
Yo, I didn't hijack this thread.  Only about 1/3 of my post in response to your great post that started this thread was about education.  I guess that is the only section of mine that people understood or read, so they went with it.

Like Eddie Murphy said, "Wasn't me".
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-21-2009 00:27
sorry you're correct you di not hijack it, but it sure seems whenever you comment things get .....different.
i enjoy the difference of opinion on here.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-21-2009 18:52
I need to change my name to Whipping Boy.  If I started talking about how "perfect" the world is then I bet you everybody will start saying how F'ed up things are.  :-)
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 11-21-2009 22:07
Liberal interference in schools, and ,family life is a good majority of  today’s social problems.
Parent - By RUSSELL (**) Date 11-20-2009 06:11
Bryon who feeds,clothes,educates,&puts a roof over childrens heads?I know who has done these things for my kids & it has been no one but me.I have lost my everything but my children more than twice.Who helped me get back on my feet every time? Me,that's who.I don't want anything from anybody but a paycheck that I earned every cent of. So why should I have to help pay for people that have no intention of helping better themselves? You might enjoy giving your earned money away to INNER CITY(minorities)people who don't & won't work but I work mine to watch it being wasted.
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:51
its hard to understand another mans hunger when your belly is full
native american saying
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 11-20-2009 02:05
These are things one has a "RIGHT" to earn. If I am advancing toward my dream, but you take away something I have earned, it is theft. No person is entitled to ANYTHING someone else has earned by their own sweat.
That is stealing.
Parent - By weldwade (***) Date 11-20-2009 02:19
Amen!
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 08:26
i agree with you, i also would suggest that if you saw someone who truly needs a hand you would be the first to help,i think that our system is based on theft and not so much on fair earning.
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 12:37 Edited 11-20-2009 12:46
The moral teachings of this degree is that we live in peace with our own conscience and are honored by good people when we perform our duties honestly and diligently. When honesty, diligence, justice and brotherhood do not exist, freedom and independence are meaningless. 

a quote from a book i read
Parent - - By weldwade (***) Date 11-20-2009 02:18
The family is the most important teaching tool there is. I see friends that have great children and ones that don't. I see the way that they raise their children compared to how I do it, I take the good I see and use it. Good or bad the biggest influence we all share is our upbringing. I know that when people are required to work for what they have they take care of it. If someone wants to work the system today they can have most everything then need to survive handed to them, they feel it is owed to them in some way... Makes me sick! There are reasons for some people to need assistance with things they need to survive in this country, I have no problem helping those that truly deserve it and I am glad to do so. The Gubment handouts are ruining this Nation. Lazy Americans are ruining it as well because they are being supported by the bleeding heart take care of everyone attitude Gubment and their mostly BS "programs" to support the lazy. If every American family was strong and took care of itself where would we be? We are all diverse enough to take care of each other in our family unit. We need to be self sufficient, If you cant be then you better figure it out in a hurry because you have to eat to survive. A little tough love would go a long way in fixing some attitudes and this Nation IMO.

This Nation is filled with crooks and schemers that are looking for the easy way out on every level. They have no conscience and care only about themselves. GREED RULES everywhere I look. People stabbing their own brother in the back because of it. Our Gubment is the same way, all but a handful of the politicians are not worth the air they breathe IMO. Gubment can't fix it's own problems or bring us out of this black hole we are spinning down. We The People are becoming more and more incompetent in every aspect of life. The moral compos of many is so far gone I don't know how it can be fixed quickly. If FDR were alive today I would bet he would be even more sickened at us than I am.

I believe that rules and consequences need to be clearly defined. We have all we need to pull ourselves up out of this hole we are in. The Ten Commandments are a really good place to start. The Declaration of Independence is another. You asked what is socialism? The answer is very clear to me! If you want to know where we are heading study the past! It's all laid out in one really good book I know of, but I guess that’s just my dogma IYO.
Also IMO the left liberal views today resemble nothing of what FDR stood for.

#1   The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

#2    The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

#3    The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

#4    The right of every family to a decent home;

#5    The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

#6    The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

#7    The right to a good education.

If you really want 4, 5,6 and 7 then you better start working on 1, 2 and 3. This is up to you not the Gubment to just hand it out. We still have these rights, I use them every day! The way I see it is very black and white, if we can read it’s all spelled out how to achieve these things. The way I see it is the left wants to regulate these 7 rights under the illusion it is for our good.  I see this as the molasses and corn to the hogs you were speaking of. The Gubment wants you Darren and it looks too me like they got ya!
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 08:33 Edited 11-20-2009 12:48
i dont think that anger or contempt will solve the problem, when people misbehave it is because they are mis or illinformed.
ask yourself what set of experiences would have to occur for you to behave the way you described all the greedy people's behaviour.
i dont think there is any permanent solutions other than the expression of the ten commandments by all of us at all time even when we don't like the outcome.
you keep saying it makes you sick....well eventually it will unless you let go.
the lord's prayer speaks to this very wisely
*ive re thought it
you completely missed it
i mean completley*
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-20-2009 15:08
Darren.... You said..

"when people misbehave it is because they are mis or illinformed."

You don't really believe that do you?

Gen 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21
...the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

There is a larger condition involved that surpasses misinformation in my opinion  :)
Parent - By darren (***) Date 11-20-2009 20:11
i'll take that inference to mean the word for "free will" in hebrew would be the problem, the fallen star. guided misinformation as it were.
i believe that if people were given the right information, experiences that they would always choose love over hate, the fact that they dont to me suggests they are hurt or injured in some way.
with your knowledge of scriptures you could also find quotes that would support the thesis that we are weak but thou art strong and to err is human and almost everything that i proposed.
the stone the builders first rejected has become the cornerstone of the temple...
if i infer correctly that there are forces at play, a larger condition that surpasses misinformation. isnt that that guided misinformation what causes us to have evil in our hearts.
therefore the problem is that we are mis or ill informed, free will also implies the freedom to believe lies or truthes so there is accountability but for those that still have a veil over their heart, they cannot discern the truth from a lie......forgiveness is the only response that does not lead to crazy making behaviour.
i tried to be subtle about the source of ignorance here i hope it isnt to convaluted but just as you show discretion i tried to do the same.
again i think we're headed in the same direction we just may not agree on the colour of the boat, or whom is on the passenger list.
Parent - - By weldwade (***) Date 11-21-2009 04:56
Anger and contempt will never solve anything, I can agree that being mis or ill informed can lead to misbehavior but that is not the only reason. I like to come out and say what I am thinking. Speaking around something and not getting to the point is not a good way to get the message across, actually it reminds me of political double talk... It can be hard sometimes in a public forum because you can't exactly write a book either. I think you are reading a little too much into what I wrote in a way that I was not intending to come across. I accept and believe that diversity in people is what makes this word keep going, it is a wonderful thing. Every free man is entitled to have his own opinion and believe as he chooses. Differences in opinion are just that. I do not accept that people who are able to support themselves be supported by the Government. I do not think it is acceptable that my hard earned tax dollars go to support wasteful Government programs that enable the lazy to become less self sufficient. If a person is handicapped they deserve help, family first remember. Lazy is not handicapped. There are other variables that I would have no problem supporting but I'm not going to write a book here.
Reading your response and your original post tell me that you are not the kind of guy to just get to the point. I should have realized this and not wasted my time, yours or anyone else’s.
Saying it makes me sick is an expression nothing more! 
Your question is ridiculous! "what set of experiences would have to occur for you to behave the way you described all the greedy people's behavior"? I am not or never will be a useless, lazy freeloader! I would never hurt someone else in any way for my own personal gain. I only expressed my views as you did and we are obviously not of the same mindset. This is really going nowhere.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-21-2009 08:42
It's called.... Here it comes now!!! Are you ready for this tried and true expression????? Okay i'll stop the suspense and just come out and say it for cryin out loud!!!

IT's THE GENERATION GAP!!!

Younger folks are always going to be more idealistic as opposed to being more pragmatic and practical like us older folks, and I believe this is the key as to why we have such differences in opinions here for the most part!!! ;) ;) ;) Now twenty years ago even, you wouldn't have caught me at all saying something like this, because back then I was still more or less very idealistic as opposed to what my current philosophy is which has changed to become more pragmatic and practical by refusing to accept any mental profanities influence my observations, such as thinking about how to design and implement "progressive, utopian liberal societies" when the rest of the world really just wants to chop your head off privately regardless of whomever is in control of this Country's administration!!!!! :) :) :) :) :( History proves it again and again!!!

And that is why we will all never agree on everything, but at least we can agree on disagreeing with whatever it is that we disagree upon!!! ;) ;) ;)
So let's continue to agree that we disagree - Okay??? GREAT!!! :) :) :) Did that solve anything??? I sure hope not!!! Then again, it wasn't my intention to do so in the first place because all I wanted to do was to point out to everyone in here that the differences stem from the kinds of philosophies we currently favor based on our own age groups and that's it! Thank you very much for all of your attention!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 11-21-2009 18:18
Food for thought.

Say we have a "Utopian existence” every thing you ever want at your finger tips. No strife or hunger through out the world.

How could that be?  Unless we find and import slaves from another planet to perform all the trivial task that make up this Utopian existence. Humm wonder if any one ever tried that? You know someone or something less human than ourselves

Maybe we could just take up arms to conquer and subjugate the rest of the world to provide for us Texun’s.

Yea but then what? No strife? No Hunger?  No ambition? What would we do all day, sit around and play checkers?

If you want to get ahead you usually have to push some one aside to do it. 

It cannot possible be Utopia for every one because no one is satisfied with just being born. We may as well just carry on the way we are and "May the best man win"
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