Is this Frivalous???

Date 08-19-2003 11:29

No, ssbn, I have not seen these advertisements on TV, but I have seen the ones where a group of lawyers is handling a class action suit dealing with people doomed with asbestosis. This is still the same group that went around to all the crafts with their portable X-Ray trailer taking chest X-Rays of anyone who had been in the crafts for 10 years or more. Part of the agrerement you sign states that this law firm will be the only one who can handle litigation for you if you have spots on your lungs indicating Asbestosis. While they found spots on my lungs, they were not considered big enough for concern. A friend and co-worker that I see a couple times a week however, did have spots big enough for concern. He has recieved several settlements, the largest being $1200.oo. The law firm he has indicated, takes over 90%. I guess I would suggest to anyone considering going to a law firm doing something like this, to talk to a reputable (are there any out there???) lawyer and get the details and ask lots of questions before you sign any document binding oneself with these fly by night ambulance chasers. The other side of this is that he cannot ever sue anyone if he develops full blown Asbestosis. He is locked in with this firm for any litigation reguarding this desease.

Mike

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 08-19-2003 18:53

I received a post card in the mail from an attorney offering me the opportunity to sue my employer for possible health problems. I called them up and asked them "How dare you solicite my employees ( I own the company) to sue me!" I suggested that they remove my name from their mailing list. So to answer your question, yes I have heard of this.

Mike Sherman
Shermans Welding

By robism

Date 08-19-2003 20:24

while reading this thread i heard a commercial on tv about welding rod fumes causing "parkinson disease like" symptoms. They claim that they will fight for u. Well as a welding student, should i be concerened about going in to this field.? I have been thinking that with the proper equipment things can be avoided.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-19-2003 22:54

Hello Robism!

The only thing that you should be concerned about regarding this topic is, that you or anyone else decide that proper protective measures to avoid this rather extremely rare possibility, is'nt a priority!!!

Take it from my experience of more than 25 years: I've worked around some very dangerous, and unhealthy conditions during the various jobs I have worked at... Before, and after my liver transplant, and as recently as a year ago, My doctors performed all sorts of tests on me... My doctor's have ordered chest X-rays, CT scans, MRI's, and Bronchioscopies (Sticking an endoscope down into my lungs to see if there was any visible damage, and take tissue cultures for pathology to evaluate) and everyones of those have shown no visible damage, and the pathologists could'nt find anything minutely related to any damage, in their own words they said that my lungs were in such great shape that they compared (Lungs) mine to someone who never did my type of work, and never smoked in their life!!!!!

Why am I so forunate while all of these lawyers so vehemently insist that welders and shipyard workers are entitled to compensation for damages related to "welding Fume Fever"???
I'll sum it up in a nut shell: I strongly believe that because I was very aware of my surroundings while working as a welder/fabricator/pipefitter/mechanic/boilermaker/Ironworker/technician/
supervisor/foreman/instructor,I had no compunction at all to
complain "loudly" enough about any conditions for which Myself or my colleagues observed as being potentially dangerous or unhealthy to whoever was running the job... If they, meaning "the powers that be" decided not to take our complaints seriously, then either Myself or anyone else that also complained, walked off the job or threatened to do so unless the conditions were rectified completely and immediately!!! Usually they listened but, the few that did'nt, were "left in the dust"!!! Pardon the pun... I did'nt ponder for a nanosecond to even give these employers the benefit of the doubt when they did'nt take mine or my fellow workers concerns seriously because, they were'nt at all concerned about our health, and safety!!!!!

When I started welding, and fabricating some time ago they did'nt even know about these "potential health risks"!!! Just like when I got infected with Hepatitis"C"!!! The result of a blood transfusion I recieved in 1986 after being assaulted in a subway station in New York City!!!
In 1986, they - meaning the medical community did'nt even have a name for Hepatitis"C"!!! The medical community called this "Non A-Non B hepatitis, nor did they even have a test for this virus!!!
I could'nt sue anyone for this because of these facts!!!

Am I upset about this??? Not really because, I was blessed to recieve the help I needed in order to survive, recieve a transplant, and continue on with my life to an extent...In other words, I accepted the challenges ahead of me, and most important of all, I never let the fear of Dying or the fear of not being able to adapt, improvise, and overcome this, to overwhelm me to the degree that I was too mortified to make an attempt at resuming my passion for this most honorable profession!!!!!
My doctor's know the type of work I do, and they do'nt have any reservations about encouraging me back to work at all, because of the fact that they know I'm going to protect myself!!!

The main point that I'm attempting to convey to you is that, if you're aware of these conditions, and have been taught properly to protect yourself, then you'll be safe!!! Ask your instructor about the ANSI/OSHA regulations regarding ventilation, and respiratory protection, and management's responsibilities!!! Knowledge is power!!! Misinformation is ignorance, and exploitation in it's cruelest form!!! Just look at the results of Mblaha's friend in seeking damages as an example: 90% went to the LAWYERS that got the settlements for that person!!!!! On top of that, the person cannot sue anybody else!!!

Being alive today has it's risks, and yet we're on average, living longer than ever before!!! So, if you are properly made aware of the risks then, you'll know how to protect yourself and others from those risks!!!
The lawyer's do'nt give a HOOT about your well being, NO SIR!!!
The only thing they are interested in is getting their percentage, even before you get one penny, and only if they know for sure that they can reach a settlement at all!!!

So, Good luck and study as hard as you can because, it'll be well worth it in the long run!!!! Also, remember to practice, practice, and practice until you ca'nt practice anymore, then practice some more!!!!

Respectfully.

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-19-2003 23:27

SSBN, Well Said.

Your safety is your responsibility and duty to your family. We should all know the risks, have the knowledge to minimize them and keep welding this country together!

G A

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-20-2003 02:25

To follow up my above statement though. People running companies should put as much concern into the long term problems that CAN be associated with welding as they do worring about another eye injury and increases in workmans comp.

How many of you that have welded have EVER been told by your company to read the MSDS and use proper ventiation. Especially in the construction industry. Anyone ever warn you about arsenic, lead cadmium, chromium, nickel etc.. You get handed an N95 or less efficient paper mask in most cases.

I don't support the frivilous lawsuits however WHO'S responsibility is it to tell people of KNOW hazards?

Anyway,

Have a good and safe day

G Austin

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 03:29

Hello Gerald!

I could'nt agree with you more!!! It's all spelled out in the ANSI/OSHA regs regarding management's responsiblities..
Do they adhere to these regs like they're supposed to?
I can tell you this... The ones that do are the ones that stay in business for the long haul without worrying about whether or not they'll be sued because of their lack of responsibility towards their employee's well-being...

The next question that comes to mind is: How many welding instructor's spend enough time to go over these potential hazards covered in the ANSI/OSHA regulations, Respirator Catalogue Specs, and MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) examples with their students, so they have a clear understanding as to what their responsibilities are, and what management's responsibilities are??? I know that when I cover this subject that, when the students are ready to go out there in the real world, They have a clear understanding of what to expect, and what not to accept when it comes to SAFETY IN THE WORKPLACE!!!

So, when in doubt, ask the employer, whether it be the site super or the plant manager if they have a copy of the ANSI/OSHA regs. or any of the other pertinent info on hand for reference!!!
If they do'nt, remind them by either showing them your copy or by informing the shop steward if possible!!! If it's a non-union job then, show them a copy anyway, and if they give you some flak about it,
Leave-em in the dust, PERIOD!!! No job is worth keeping, especially if the employer does'nt show any interest in your health, and well-being!!!

Once again Gerald, thanks for your support!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 16:53

SSBN, Funny you should mention this

At this moment I am putting Z49.1, item by item into powerpoint. Also am looking forward to enhancements such as graphics, pictures of valves, MSDS breakdowns etc to really cover safety responcibilites by the numbers.

By JTMcC

Date 08-20-2003 03:58

I've not only been told to read the MSDS, I have been thru classes explaining MSDS and more, it's commonly called a HAZCOM class. Same with ventilation, respirators (I've been thru so many respirator classes I could probably give one without notes), fit test, blow in the tube till you drop, ect. Maybe you are working for the wrong contractors! Maybe it's a regional difference, I rarely work in the eastern U.S. But many of the contractors we deal with are from the east.

JTMcC.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 04:43

Hey JTMcC!!!

Thanks for sharing!!!
Maybe you could re-read the thread again before you start presuming things about us East Coast people!!!

Btw, It's not a "regional thing" at all pal!!! Also, I NEVER "work for the wrong contractor"!!! In fact, on occasion I teach contractors about these issues and other welding related issues, processes, and procedures etc. Enough about me! What's your line of work?

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By JTMcC

Date 08-20-2003 14:33

Hi SSBN727,

My post was in reply to Gerald's post, I thought that would be obvious due to the content. I was in no way replying to your post, in fact, I hadn't even read your post. I don't even think your post was there when I wrote my reply.

JTMcC.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 17:50

My mistake JTMcC!!!
We must've posted the replies around the same time or something like that... Maybe I was upset about watching Jay Leno's comments about the blackout when he said: "That's last years news! We already been through that out here in the west coast! It's old news!!!" so, when I read your reply, I mistakenly thought you were messing with us East Coast folks also!!! Please accept my sincere apology!!! Your last post was a real good one and I agree with the fact that it is required by law to keep a record available of the MSDS's on anything being used...

I watch Letterman, and look foward to checking out "Grinder Girl"!!! Have you seen her on the show yet? Btw, what local do you work with?

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By JTMcC

Date 08-20-2003 14:54

To expand on my previous reply to Gerald, are you refering to your experience before or after joining the Boilermakers? I would be interested if there was that much of a difference in safety programs.
I know in my experience as a hand and as a sub, we started seeing serious safety programs comming into effect around 1990. as a sub, we are often invited or required to sit in on safety classes put on by the contractor. MSDS instruction started about the same time and a copy in a large ring binder is always available in the office trailer and usually in the tool crib or a gang box. I think this is law or rule, as contractors I work for require me to supply MSDS on everything we use on their site, including consumables, paint, ect.
My Liability insurance carrier gives me a small break on premiums if I have a written, verifiable safety policy in effect, that and workman comp rates are part of the driving force behind safety programs.
Also, as a signatory union contractor, I am required by contract to provide proper PPE, ventilation, ect., ect.
As an aside, I believe I have a moral obligation to ensure as safe a work enviroment as I can, regardless of rule, regulation or law.

regards,
JTMcC.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-20-2003 18:41

Both

More significant discrepancies existed with the non-union contractors I worked with and there was much less freedom to bring these things up.

I feel stronger about the moral obligation than the law. Your view on the subject is what I expect and respect in an employer.

I was once a 1 man ROF the day after I refused to work on a painted item that wasn't prepped for welding in accordance to the safety requirements that had been put in affect after I chellenged a company on the lead content of paint we had been welding on. If I had been in the union, I doubt it would have happend (The ROF).

The company was a large construction co which was owned by a energy company.

I was eventually compensated due to my knowledge of the laws regarding being terminated for safety issues and my contact with the Dept of labor and OSHA. Even in right to work states, It isn't legal.

If you have any short term work come up out West, Call me or Local 263. I'm only a second year apprentice but love to ARC gouge :). Shutdown season is starting and I'm looking forward to it.

Have a good day John

G Austin

By JTMcC

Date 08-20-2003 21:55

G Austin,

I'm not signatory w/the Boilermakers, but I will keep you in mind. You should be knee deep in boiler work in a month or two, huh? I'm curious if you got credit for past experience and got in as a second year, or did you have to start from scratch? Either way, it's probably a very good move.
I hope the talk of building new nukes and steamers comes to be, we'll see.

regards,
JTMcC.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-21-2003 01:59

I got 4000 hours with NO credit from my past work with Boilers or US Navy. I have to complete some courses to move up and be fully credited for the hours.

I started as a 1st period apprentice. I went through school earlier this summer. Very good school.!

I'm starting a shutdown at a paper mill on the 25th on nights. 10 Miles from the house. Ya gotta love it !

Have a good day

G Austin

By dasimonds (**)

Date 08-20-2003 00:41

Hi Mike,
If your employees contracted a disease or occupational illness while working in your employ, why shouldn't you be responsible, you being the owner and all?
I've seen it a lot of times where an employee is asked to do something that is questionable in it's saftey aspects, by some gung-ho supervisor, whose only intention is to make him self look good, with complete disreguard( I would call it negligence ) for the employee's health and well being.
Why shouldn't you be held responsible?
I am not refering to you personally, but to the construction industry as a whole.
I have been in situations where the question of asbestos arose, (replacing the skin on an 1950's vintage power boiler) and my foreman picked up a piece of "stuff"(asbestos) from the floor, gave it his personal "taste" test,( he actually put a piece in his mouth) and stated "it's not asbestos, get back to work", only to contradict himself at the end of the shift by stating " that was asbestos, I'm sorry".
Dale Simonds

By Michael Sherman (***)

Date 08-23-2003 13:17

It is my responsibity to protect my employees. I find though that I spend more time protecting them from themselves. I have mandated glasses, gloves and ear protection and I discipline someone every week for not wearing them. Regardless, you missed the irony I was trying to point out, they sent the post card to the owner of the company. I don't like lawyers, they never seem to be able to help me when I need them (I have never needed them for work) and things like these ads are just ambulance chasers before there is even an ambulance.

Mike Sherman

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-19-2003 21:52

This is probably related to the affects of manganese (Or suspected affects) on health. A university had done a study that had evidence that an increased number of parkinsons diseas cases existed in those involved with metalworking (Mainly Steel).

These along with other health aspects of welding are not frivilous although in my opinion some of the lawsuits may be.

The MSDS for welding fumes list various components that are health hazards. These things are NOT stressed in safety meeting in shops and construction sites that I have been in . Mainly ear plugs, safety glasses, tie off etc.

NIOSH has an article that may be of interest. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/elcosh/docs/d0100/d000026/d000026.html

Read an MSDS and compare the TLV's to the PEL's and you realize that some compounds may reach unhealth levels before becoming a bother.

Ozone is another health hazard associated with arc welding. Ozone cannot be filtered out as far as I know.

Before we all start whining, remember that many hazards exist in jobs. We must take precautions. Some police officers may not be "Required" to wear body armor. But some of those do.

I have studied the healt risks, OSHA regulations re respiratory protection, and NIOSH data.

I STILL LOVE TO WELD.

G Austin

By mcavana (**)

Date 08-20-2003 04:16

I look at it this way: Welding is an extremely safe job for me for one reason... I have complete control of my own safety. I will not do the work if I am not protected. Unfortunately not all profesions offer that in todays world... Army, Navy, Marines, Police officers, Firemen, Cashiers, Airline employees, Dr's, even teachers are some examples of this.

To the new guys out there: Yes welding is a very dangerous profession. It can make you sick in many different ways... it can eventually kill you. But with the scientific knowledge we have, and the safety equipment available today, you can litteraly decide whether or not it will hurt or kill you.

I have heard of these law suites locally, and of course I do have an opinion on them. For the older welders, who did not have the knowledge and equipment to protect themselves, go for it. If you are no longer able to work, get that money to try to make ends meet no matter who you have to step on. I am sure they could have gotten the knowledge out to you faster than they did. To the younger guys: Don't even @$#%ing think about it. The info is there. The safety equipment is there. It is nobody's fault but your own if you are too lazy, stupid, or cowardly to make your work enviroment safe.

Sorry if I offend anyone with this post... it was not my intention. I have very strong feelings on this subject, and have spoken about it one too many times...

mike

mcavana "Just stick it in there"

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 04:58

Hello mcavana!

It's cool!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run silent... Run Deep!!!

By robism

Date 08-20-2003 05:41

thanks to all u guys for the replies , i used to work for a telecom company and we got trained on issues like asbestos. Even though sometimes the lead person would say "just work around it" I would always opt not to do it at all. I agree that no job is worth getting sick over, but i also agree that its all up to u to protect yourself and be informed. Thats the reason why when ppl say "welding will make u blind", i always tell them that thats why there are welding masks with shades and all sorts of safety stuff. Am i wrong on this or will welding make me blind. Even if it does it doesnt matter cause welding is so fun :).

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-20-2003 10:41

I struck my 1st arc for money at 15. I'm 39. My vision has remainded 70/20 in one eye and 100/20 in the other. I think forieng object damage is more of a hazard than light. Both of which are extremely minimized with the proper protection.

Have a nice day

Gerald Austin

By TimGary (****)

Date 08-20-2003 12:00

These law suits have been creeping up for a few years now and I'm sure will eventually become monolithic.
Not because so many people are suffering from the effects of welding fume, but because the lawyers can make so much money using it as a crutch.
Personally, I feel that anyone with even a little bit of common sense can tell when they are in an unsafe position. In a welding shop, the last safety concern that enters my mind is fume. I'm more worried about welding flash, flying objects, molten metal droplets going in all directions, falling objects, forklift drivers, etc. etc.
Anyone who chooses to remain in a dangerous situation has made a personal decision and accepts the responsibilty to look out for theirself.
Justified or not, I'm sure class action suits will be coming soon, probably along the same sickening lines as the following:

The Latest Results From America's Pre-eminent Lawyer Enrichment Program (class-action lawsuits):
(1) In a $350 million settlement between AT&T and customers overcharged on telephone leases, lawyers get $84 million, and customers get back $15 to $20 each (December).
(2) In a recent settlement between Sears and customers with improperly done wheel balancing, lawyers get $2.45 million, and customers get $2.50 a tire.
(3) In a $3.7 million settlement between televangelist Jim Bakker's Praise the Lord Ministries and 165,000 defrauded Christians, lawyers get $2.5 million, and each victim gets $6.54 (July).
(4) In a settlement of price-fixing charges against cosmetics manufacturers and retailers, lawyers get $24 million, and each customer gets a free cosmetic (July). [St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 6-22-03] [St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 6-4-03] [The Citizen-Times (Asheville, N.C.), 7-30-03] [San Francisco Chronicle, 7-19-03]

Tim

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-20-2003 18:30

Great post Tim!!!
Thanks!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By dee

Date 08-24-2003 08:34

I've seen ads concerning asbestos exposure, mesothelioma, fitters and other ship workers but nothing about welder fumes but I believe MikeS' story about ambulance chasers
regards
d

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-25-2003 21:09

Hello Dee!

If you do a search online, then you'll find some info on "welding fume fever", and some law - I mean ambulance chasers that will "Fight" FOR YOU!!! Yeah Right!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By dee

Date 08-26-2003 00:11

SSBN
Thanks... cough-cough... thanks... cough... I think I ...cough... see my retirement ...cough... in a new ...cough cough... light.

(Funny how sudden it hit -cough cough- I mustv at least cough LOOKED at something hazardous once)

To change the direction just a bit, I have to agree with the post that makes it clear our safety is our own responsibility. "Legal remedy" or not, without your health it's kinda tough to enjoy the "compensation"

And as long as I'm diverting permit me to add... if you expose a piece of resilient material, for example silicone rubber tube, to UV for an extended period of time it becomes embrittled; try it. The effects of UV on eye tissue are unknown to me, but I am indeed concerned about cumulative effects accelerating the effects of age. 35 is young eyes to me, and I was bragging about my eyesight at that age myself. I'm lucky on good days to be able to read newsprint without glasses, and I have a nagging suspicion it was the abuse.

At any rate we owe ourselves the attention we give to a piece of metal.

There is something wrong with the picture when we leave our safety to somebody who may even mean well but has distractions. You make a mistake on a weld... and cut, grind and reweld... the foreman makes a mistake and you suffer for life.
My criticism is of the philosophy that subscribes to the proposition that a welder should know everything about his weld, and leave his safety to another, distracted human being who may know nearly nothing about [at least some of] the materials being used in maybe 50 or more projects going on any one time. The AWS is afraid of lawsuits, they say, and cannot (they say) devote a forum to safety for fear of liability. Our district meetings are the proper vehicle for change, not a public forum, however, awareness remains the issue I'm addressing, and even our forum seems (it argueably has the appearance, but in fact apparently is not) to be asleep about safety, so it slips out-of-mind that much more easily... how many of us have reference books about our trade, and among these books how many of them include a reference on poisons we're likely to encounter? I promise you there are folks who may be reading this who have no idea how to interpret a MSDS.

Responsibility, in our case, has been legally established to provide for compensation; it's a politic solution with both merit and disadvantages. In the end it's up to us to take care of ourselves.

...and I kept it under three gigabites long!
d

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-26-2003 02:06

dee,

Good point regarding the forum not having a safety forum. When you go to work, what does the employer say is "MOST IMPORTANT" why its safety of course.

If as much study had been put into the study of health affects related to welding smoke as has been cigarette smoke maybe we would all have a different view and be more informed.

I have been in places where air monitors were given to a welder to wear all day. They welded in the jackstands with fans blowing and never climbed in to a pipe rack or tank. HMMM?

How about ozone the epa says

How can ground-level ozone affect your health?
Ozone can irritate your respiratory system, causing you to start coughing, feel an irritation in your throat and/or experience an uncomfortable sensation in your chest.

Ozone can reduce lung function and make it more difficult for you to breathe as deeply and vigorously as you normally would. When this happens, you may notice that breathing starts to feel uncomfortable. If you are exercising or working outdoors, you may notice that you are taking more rapid and shallow breaths than normal.

Ozone can aggravate asthma. When ozone levels are high, more people with asthma have attacks that require a doctor’s attention or the use of additional medication. One reason this happens is that ozone makes people more sensitive to allergens, which are the most common triggers for asthma attacks. Also, asthmatics are more severely affected by the reduced lung function and irritation that ozone causes in the respiratory system.

Ozone can inflame and damage cells that line your lungs. Within a few days, the damaged cells are replaced and the old cells are shed—much in the way your skin peels after a sunburn.

Ozone may aggravate chronic lung diseases such as emphysema and bronchitis and reduce the immune system’s ability to fight off bacterial infections in the respiratory system.

Ozone may cause permanent lung damage. Repeated short-term ozone damage to children’s developing lungs may lead to reduced lung function in adulthood. In adults, ozone exposure may accelerate the natural decline in lung function that occurs as part of the normal aging process.

A certified industrial hygienist at http://204.178.120.25/hot/evaluating_potentially_harmful.htm wrote an interesting article regarding welding fumes. It doesn't seem to be an ambulance chaser site.

Have a good day and watch out for keyboards at the improper height :)

Gerald Austin

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 08-26-2003 03:44

And O2 is converted to O3 (ozone) in the presence of ultra violet light, and welding makes lots of ultra violet light.

Edit- as I now see the article in the link states.
Bill

By MBlaha

Date 08-26-2003 10:58

Where I teach, in the weld lab, they installed a new smoke eating system to control Ozone, but they were more concerned about Chromium 6. Has anybody heard of that??

Mike

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 08-26-2003 11:42

Yes, hexavalent chromium (chrome 6) is one of the forms that exist in welding fume after the arc breaks the chromium down, and it has shown to be the "bad player" as far as respiratory problems go (Thus the MSDS statement: "Cr-6 compounds are required by OSHA to be considered carcinogenic").

Cr-6 has a much lower TLV (0.01) than the solid form of Cr (0.5) and the permissible exposure limit (0.5) can be reached long before the normal welding fume limit of 5.

The other major baddies include manganese, tungsten, cobalt and nickel.

Kind of hard to create non-mild steel electrodes without them though - especially hardfacing. Try to develop a stainless steel rod without chromium or nickel! I work for an electrode manufacturer, and I can certainly attest to the existence of these lawyers and lawsuits.

The difficulty lies in the way negligence is defined. Even though the MSDS is available, the box is labeled, the spool is labeled (and even if a jack-in-the-box sprung from the box on opening and yelled "KEEP YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SMOKE - AND USE FUME EXTRACTION!!"), the employer and the manufacturer can be assigned some level of "contribution" to the negligence. A lawyer sees this, and if he/she can generate 100 cases and clear $1000 each - well, you do the math.

And, unfortunately, the pulmonary function test (blowing in the tube) does not give you any indication as to WHY the employee might have problems. Other causes can include prior pneumonias, athsma, smoking, smog, and stinky feet (OK....got a little carried away there...sorry). It just says that "Yes, this welder (who also smokes and has stinky feet) has suffered a 20% loss in pulmonary function." So, what is a 20% loss worth? And what percentage of the negligence is assigned to the employer and the manufacturer. Not hard to come up with a $15,000 award between them is it? (which, at a 20% profit margin and 30% legal "fee", lets John Q. Lawyer pocket $1000)

:::leaping off soap box:::

Sorry Mike! Anyway - your smoke removal system will help. But don't forget the two other parts of the triangle - avoid putting your head in the fume and, if the space is at all confined, insist on an appropriate respirator (not a paper mask). And remember that the more alloy the rod contains, the more concerned you need to be (e.g. stainless and hardfacing).

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-26-2003 15:54

Seems kinda like the gun manufacturers getting sued.

G Austin

By MBlaha

Date 08-26-2003 18:35

Thank you PhilThomas. I do very stringinglty make the employees aware of keeping their head out of the smoke. When we were discussing the new air filtration system, we were drilled quite extensively about what and how Chromium 6 affects weldors. I appreciate your explanation as I could not remember all the specifics. Old brain syndrome again LOL.

Again Thanks

Mike

By Kappy Date 08-31-2003 17:52

The Parkinsons article referred to earlier is found at http://www.neurology.org/cgi/eletters/56/1/8#42
The work was done at Johns Hopkins and is based on a small study comparing 15 welders to non welders. The results suggest that welders who are suceptible to Parkinsons, get it earlier. It's a small, incomplete study but starts to raise questions about manganese.

As many of you pointed out, we did not understand the health effects of the constituents of weld fume and did not protect against an unknown. Now we know more and the precaution trio is still important(1)keep your head our of the fumes, (2) wear a respirator and (3) ventilate. The health info is still incomplete so protect yourself.

OSHA is considering changing the Hex Chromium standard and new requirements should be coming out in October 2004 and be final in January 2006.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/hexavalentchromium/index.html

Here's their web page on welding..
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/weldingcuttingbrazing/index.html.

One final request have any of you heard or seen anything on Welder's Assistants and ALS/Lou Gehrig's disease? I have heard of a class action suit but it is only word of mouth I'm curious about the medical basis of the suit.

In case you haven't figured it out and for full disclosure. I'm not a welder but a ventilation engineer working in health and safety

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 08-26-2003 22:06

Hi D!
I see you must have received an answer regarding our request for a "Safety" topic section in the forum. I'm glad you shared that with us as I had often wondered about the out come of your request to the forum several months or a year ago. Anyway, at the time it seemed like a great idea and would have served some of us that have Safety Manager duties on top of our QC/QA inspection duties. I feel very inadaquate in some ares of Safety and it was a position that was forced onto myself by my company. I have tried to educate myself for my employee's well being and my employer's need to fill the position. I can only hope I can make a difference. I have seen a few reductions in worker's comp cases due to added safety measures that I was able to get implemented. The guys didn't like the changes at first but have come to me recently and admitted that they see where it has really helped and thanked me for my efforts. I don't want our welders to feel like that cowboy on the poster after OSHA has finished mandating protective equipment for him. He has all sorts of garb on and could not possibly get hurt doing his job because with all that garb on he can't even do his job.
Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to say thanks for sharing the outcome of your request and also say HI.
John Wright

By dee

Date 08-31-2003 23:08

JW
Allways good hearing from you.

Safety policy is an emotionally charged issue with me. I know first-hand how it can be responsible for saving lives. If we err on the side of caution, and treated a MIG gun (or any welding system) with the same respect we treat a firearm or high explosives (automobiles wreck entirely too often to serve as the "respect" standard) perhaps the unfortunate welder who injured himself welding that fixture to the empty fuel tank recently wouldn't have wound up hospitalized. Keeping quiet about safety policy is against my natural instinct, but, here on this site, my discretion is a matter of professional courtesy.

AWS got back to me right away... courteously, discreetly, and competently enough for it to be an issue if I permit or foster any misimpression. I tried to extend my remarks in the original thread to indicate they did... on occasion the harder I work at clarity the more it evades... sorry I wasn't more clear on that point back then, and I apologize for getting a bit overwound earlier in this thread.

I see more complexity in the implications of what we were asking for than I did back then. I dont know if the issues really amount to anything... as if condensed to a mathmatical formula, I see a string of numbers but don't know where to place the decimal point...
...if you're curious about what they said to quiet me down, drop me an email.

Regards
d