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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / EN 287-1
- - By js55 (*****) Date 12-03-2009 21:15
What criteria do you use to determine if the majority a work is butt welds or fillet welds to comply with Section 5.4 b)?
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 12-03-2009 21:22
JS,
That's a good question.  On the job's I've done to this standard I sat down with the client and went over the scope of work and got their buy in on my ideas.  I broke it all the way down, though.  For example, the overall scope probably had more butt welds than fillets, but certain areas of the shop dealt mainly with fillets.  So I got them to agree that for those areas a fillet weld test could be considered sufficient, while for other areas a butt weld test was required.
Regards,
Mankenberg
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 12-03-2009 21:56
Kip,
Thats sorta the process I figured would need to take place, unless there was some general industry understanding. Its still seems rather messy to me. But at least I think our eminent, or is that imminent, :)  friend Al would approve to a certain extent (just funnin ya Al), since fillet quals will be required at some point.
So there ya go Al. ASME don't have it wrong. You're just on the wrong continent.  :)
Back to the subject. I think Kip, your solution is better than anything I came up with since without an agreement of some sorts there is always complications and risk of disagreement after the fact. At least as far as I can see.
Of course, in time you would end up having quite a few fellas qualed both ways and the problem would tend to solve itself to some extent, but in our enviroment here we can experience a rapid turnover so it won't completely resolve itself.
And granted, it is still quite early in my review of these standards. Which I take as even more odd than API, being an old ASME codger.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 12-03-2009 21:41
There is no written criteria.
It is a clause, which is very rarely used as most people think it's more difficult to qualify on a butt rather than a fillet.

3.2
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-03-2009 22:00
3.2,
If EN 287-1 is imposed by contract how do avoid having to comply?
I would agree with a butt being more difficult, though Al states a good case, my anti-advocacy notwithstanding, about fillet quals.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 12-03-2009 22:23
well....
When do you think something is the majority?
I never ask for fillet quals - may it be right or wrong - as I dont agree with Al

Lets say 90% of the welds were fillets, then I would say the majority was fillet welds, maybe the same holds true if it were 80% :)
Below 80%, I would let him weld with a butt qual.

As a general rule of thumb in eu, the butt weld is considered more difficult.

3.2
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-04-2009 13:29
3.2,
The problem with majority is to me the crux of the problem. Short of an extensive weld survey and customer aggreement as kip related its almost unworkable. You end up with a welder being qualified for fillet welds on one job and not on another. Same welder, same weld types, same everything, maybe even the same day, except the shipping address is different.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 12-05-2009 07:12
js55,
Are you moving to europe? :)

You will never run in to the problems you describe.
Contractors who only do structural work, usually qualify there welders with a fillet test.
Contractors who only or mostly do pipe work usuallyqualify their welders with a pipe test.

It is really never an issue in the real world.

I am surprised that you havent asked about the requirement of branch welds if below 60 degrees angle (I think it is 60)

3.2
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-07-2009 13:29
3.2,
It is 60. I've read it. I have not considered as yet ramifications of it.
Stay tuned.  :)

In answer to your first question we have recently come to an agreement with a european based company, though we deal with offices here in the States. Much of what they do is ASME/AWS (we do structural and pipe), although some of it is PED 2, 3, and 4. We've actually already done some very basic SEP stuff for them, but are preparing for the more stringent applications
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 12-07-2009 18:56
The 60 degree requirement is another thing I have never seen myself.
I even wonder if any branch connections is at an angle lower than 60.

Oh christ....PED :)
Many people in the EU is confused about PED, even experts who work with it every day.

3.2

May I suggest you cut your hair even more short :)
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-07-2009 19:54
Tell me about that.
We contracted a consulting firm which has done countless PED programs to assist in orientation. The customer then said they were doing it all wrong. Somehow I suspect neither can be disputed per the language in 97/23/EC.
Now in the end the customers approach will of course be the one selected but juggling interpretations is not an enviable position.
Nothing a cold draft at the end of the day won't cure though.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-08-2009 12:31
js55; I'm no expert on EN 287-1 and I'll be the first to admit it!  I have had a couple of years dealing with it though and in my opinion, it kind of boils down to a matter that a butt weld would qualify a multi-pass fillet weld, but a single pass fillet weld would have to be qualified separately.  This obviously has to do with hardness.  Now, I'm sure someone is going to tell me I'm mixing apples and oranges, but that's my take.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 12-08-2009 12:35
EN 287-1 qualification range has nothing to do with hardness - at all.

3.2
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / EN 287-1

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