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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding video vertical up looking through welders lens?
- - By eckstg (*) Date 12-13-2009 05:30
Hi everyone,i am new here and this is my first post.I am currently in technical college for welding basics and currently trying to weld a certifiable verticle up plate on 3/8" thick plate with a 45degree bevel and 1/8" gap.We put roughly 1/8" root face on our plates.Our instructor has us running the root with the E6010 rod and the hot pass and cover passes with E7018 rods.He also has us run on negative current.Between 60-90amps on root with E6010 and 90-120amps on the E7018.I am ok on my root pass but not so hot on the hot pass and cover passes.I have been practicing the box weave but i just dont seem to be catching on.I mainly am looking for a demo of running the cap pass with the box weave like seeing it through the welders lens.Anyone have any links where i may can find this?Thxs for your time!
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-13-2009 05:42
Good video is hard to find, sorry but I can't help there.

A comment though.... 90-120 would be high with a 3/32" 7018, and low with a 1/8" 7018... provided the amperage indicated on your power source is correct.

Box weaves work best with 6010.  Not sure it is best technique for 7018 on such a small opening.  Not trying to second guess your instructor.... something may have been lost in the translation or he may have a specific training goal in mind by using these specific techniques on this project.
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-13-2009 06:03 Edited 12-14-2009 06:13
Yep but he doesnt elaborate.He just demos and walks away.And dont give many demos.I am willing to try a hotter amperage.What would you recommend?But it is E7018 for sure he wants us running vertical cap pass on and all they keep are 1/8 rods.Thxs for the help!
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 12-13-2009 06:13
where you going to school at?? wouldn't happen to be Louisiana? reminds me of my old teacher who would show you and walk away and not really explain why he did that. I ended learning most my welding from another student in the class and just a ton of practicing
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-13-2009 06:45
Yea tons of practice but very frustrating.Spent this whole semester trying to get this verticle up plate to pass.Never welded before entering this course.Not sure if thats what to expect from all tech college welding courses or if i just chose the wrong one.We got students who cant weld better when they finish than when they first came who walk out with the certification from the college.Seems to all be just about getting the students their financial aid from the government then getting it into the college by tuition fees.I think after that they could careless if you learn to weld or not.Alot of students just present for the first 4-6weeks until they receive their pell check of money left over and then you dont see them again until next semester.They still get counted present and passing grades so they can continue the next semester.Guess thats so the college can continue getting tuition fees until they complete the course.We all are adults so not sure whose to blame?I guess both the students and instructors etc. but the government is getting raw end of deal.They paying like 6 to 8 grand for these students to learn welding in 3 to 4 semesters and alot are certified by college and still cant weld.Its nuts.I am hanging in there and trying to use my time the best as can to learn while im going through this course but with no leadership it seems like im fighting a loosing battle.I basically stay cause i have access to free machines and rods just need some more guideance.There are some good instructors there part time of the week that i try and get help from.I think i may can accelerate learning alot more if maybe i could just find videos like the ones the welderslens has but currently i cant afford the $140 for the set.I may buy them come febuary but i need to be sure they are gonna be very useful to fork that over.Just trying to take things 1 at a time.Currently just need help with that dang cover pass doing a weave with E7018 rod.It doesnt have to be box weave just any decent looking weave bead for the cap i can practice after seeing a demonstration.Thxs for your help!
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-13-2009 07:29
A semester on one joint in one position?

Personally I don't think you can make a good welder by having the guy do the same thing over and over and over.

Repetition only leads to the ability to memorize specific actions for one certain set of circumstances.  It doesn't teach a guy to weld.

Memorizing movements, speeds, angles, etc doesn't teach a guy to handle the dynamic nature of welding in the real world.  You must learn how to read the arc, puddle, and slag follow so that you can tell what is going on, anticipate what is about to happen, know what needs to happen next, and understand how to make that occur.

The way to accomplish this IMO is to continually change the variables... position, joint type and geometry, material thickness, and even welding process.  The method may not build self-esteem as the welder will screw things up over and over and over for a long time before achieving consistant success, but it does eventually build welders who can adapt and function under just about any set of circumstances.

All training courses, including college welding courses, are as different as those who run them.  Some are great, some are horrible.  I am not tryig to take a dig here but honestly, many students spend more time researching what car or rifle or snow tires they are going to buy than they do researching which school they should trust with their education... usually arbitrarly picking whatever is most conveniently located.  Where you go to school matters, alot.
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 06:09
Man this was a very intelligent and truthfull post and you hit the nail on the head!I would like to look into finding a good quality welding program that would give total cost for training/tuition/fees and what it takes to qualify to take their course and also maybe a place that rates welding programs.Any idea how i could find this info?
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 12-14-2009 21:11 Edited 12-15-2009 01:10
Unfortunately there is no external evaluation of college vocational or welding programs in any state that I am aware of.

IMO there certainly should be.  I think every state should provide external evaluation and grading of the vocational programs within their college systems.

The best you can do is to talk to local industry and ask for their opinions on the quality of graduate a program is putting out.  Got to be clear you want to know about GRADUATES, not somebody who took a course or two and dropped or failed out.

Graduates are a great source of input.  There is nothing wrong with asking for the name and number of 5 or 10 recent graduates and asking them for opinions.  Even current and especially senior students can be a good tip off if a program has major problems. 

Local welding supply shops (who aren't regular sellers to a school) and external sales people can usually provide insight as well.

Something you should ask for is a list of the specific assignments you will be required to successfully complete in each course within the program.  If that can't be provided, it is a red flag. 

If you don't see pipe, structural shapes (angle, channel, tube, beam, etc), FCAW-S, FCAW-G, GMAW (ss, pulsed, and spray), AC and DC TIG, etc ask about it.  There is way more to welding than stick on plate.  You need to become competent in all positions with a torch and with an air arc.... ask about it.  If you don't see blueprint reading, fabrication assignments, and applied shop math, again ask about it.  Ask about the homework load... be suspicious if there aren't regular assignments.

Ask for the names of current employers of program graduates.

Ask "What specific skills will a graduate of this program have?".  Then "How do you ensure this?"

If a program puts people through who don't measure up.... well you can imagine what this does to the value of the credential that is being issued.

There is nothing wrong with interviewing the guy you may be trusting with 2 years of you life, 2 years of lost wages, 2 years of tuition payments, and a good part of your future career success.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-13-2009 07:44 Edited 12-13-2009 07:59
As far as your plate test goes, with 1/8" try about 115-130. 

Turn the dig all the way down if have that control - that will minimize the amperage rise that occurs at the very short arc length you should be maintaining.

Don't over do the push angle.  Too much push lengthens the arc on one side and leads to digging away of the base metal.  It also causes the electrode to burn off at an angle, increasing the size of the puddle.  Only use about 10 degrees push.

Keep the puddle reasonably small.  Keep the diameter less than half the final width of the bead you are putting down.  If the puddle gets bigger than that, expect convexity.

Keep the arc short!

I would try a simple and slight arc shaped movement.... like a smile turned upside down.  Don't over do it.  In the middle you only need to rise about 1/16 to 1/8 inch above where you locate the electrode on either edge.

If you have undercut, a slight downward movement once you reach either edge can help.

Don't hesitate to go up to 1/8" outside the edges of the groove.  This helps keep the bead flat and minimizes undercut.

Paint the metal on thin.  Keep the electrode moving at a good pace but don't pull the electrode ahead and out of the puddle.  If you have adequate current you should be able to keep the electrode moving pretty good.  This helps to keep the puddle reasonably small so gravity doesn't have as much effect.

You can hold on the edges if you want, but if you are doing everything right and have adequate current you shouldn't need to.

Don't hesitate to break the arc if the base metal temp is getting out of control.  Don't fire up on the plate if it is flaming hot.  Controlling base metal temp is big part of successful welding. 
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 06:18 Edited 12-14-2009 06:34
Gonna print this out to have in the welders booth in the morn,lol!Thxs for all that great advice.Our stick welders are miller stick/dry tig welders.Not sure on make/models name though.As far as setting on stick its 4 settings.The knob can be put under the mark xx10 with either soft or stiff and xx18 either soft or stiff.So im guessing the stiff would be the better dig on these?Im getting one of those infrared temp guns soon and was wondering after you run a pass on a plate and check its temp around what temp is good to start welding on the plate again?Plates we weld on are 3/8 thick 6in long and 4 in wide at first.Thxs for the help!
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 12-14-2009 20:47
The "Soft / Stiff" labeling Miller uses is just less (soft) or more (stiff) dig.

I wish manufacturers would stop trying to dumb down power source control labelling.

xx18 is for 7018 or other F4 group electrodes.  7018 techniques & applications generally like less dig.  And xx10 is for 6010 or other F3 group electrodes.  6010 techniques and applications generally like more dig.

I would put it on "Soft" for vertical covers with 7018.  The thinner the base metal, the more puddle control benefit this can provide.

So "xx18 soft".
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 12-13-2009 17:47 Edited 12-13-2009 17:51
I sware dude you must be going to the school I went to here in Louisiana and if not dam it sound exactly the same. Where students came to school to get that check and then stay a couple of weeks and take off. Hell i couldn't get the Pell Grant they said I made to much money that year and I sware i made like 23 gran that year being a ski bumm at a resort.

I can say this I have never had any experience welding before i went to this school. What got me into welding was seeing a guy weld who wasn't that great either and I was like dam thats cool I want to do this, so I did. Actually was told by a few people it is best in a way not knowing anything how to weld because some welders start out learning bad habbits and is sometimes hard to break them of that.

Hang in there dude you'll get it. I had the same problems man I could run a root like no other but the fill and especially the cap was the freaking hardest. I don't know what this box type of weave thing is. I would just weave the 7018 rod in a Z pattern staying in the puddle not to go to fast. I'd start off by weaving to one side and pause and say one one thousand and then move to the other edge of the bevel and pause there for another one one thousanth, count out loud if you need to. Weaving across the middle just fast enough that I don't come outta the puddle but to slow and you will build to much metal in the center of the weld. I'm not to good at explaining there are others far better on here.

The videos really aren't a waste of money I learned a few tricks on the tig videos that I never knew about. The videos you don't have to buy the entire set you can buy one dvd at a time if you want. Watch Michaels videos on youtube he has alot of them on there and they will help.

Keep visiting this forum you will learn so much from these guys. I found this forum when I was in school like you and these guys helped me so dam much that all the keg parties in the world couldn't pay them back enough.

Chris
Parent - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 06:13
I emailed micheal from welderslens.com about a demo on verticle up and man i got to say this guy is simply awesome!Couldnt find a better experience than he provides.I am almost certain im gonna buy that 18 dvd pack in the next month or abouts.Thxs for the help!
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 12-13-2009 06:01
there is a guy who has some awsome videos which I ahve orderd from him and I think there probally the best on the internet. I wish I had these videos when I was in school learning to weld because they would have helped me out a ton on pipe. The website is http://www.thewelderslens.com/ videos are now $147.00 I think I paid around 160 or so for them. Really worth it.
This guy does alot of talking and showing you to weld. He really explains what he is doing and why he does it this way. I think you will get alot from his videos and plus he has a few of them online here on youtube here http://www.youtube.com/user/mdtread

Chris
Parent - - By mightymoe (**) Date 12-13-2009 14:19
Did you already complete welding stringers on a flat plate in flat, horizontal, verticle, and overhead?
Some have a tough time getting the weave to look good. How do your vertcle stringer beads look?
With your weave you need to pause on the side. When your arc first touches the bevel it dig into it creating a crater or undercut. If you move away from the bevel/side too soon that undercut will remain. Pause long enough to see that crater/udercut fill in. As soon as it fills in move quickly to the other side/bevel. Progress up/verticle enough so that your weld pool/puddle overlaps the previous one. I ussually use a "z" motion on an open root V groove. Keep a tight arc and close to 90 degree rod angle. Practice as much as possible, you may not be getting your moneys worth from the instructor so make up for it by burning up some rods.
Please descibe exactly how your welds look. The appearance of them tells us alot, and we will be able to give you more specific pointers.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-13-2009 21:23
If your running the 1/8" 7018 I'm thinking 115-130 as well. I do it around 115-120 myself. You have to think of this though, if your hotter you have to move quicker. One thing I've learned from bouncing around different machines, you can set them all at 120 but you have to be aware and figure out if that is actually 120, hotter, cooler. This is where knowing the weld pool and how fast the metal melts or how slowly, which all comes from hood time. What I did to practice my cap. Go out back where everybody throws their old scrap 3G plates. Pick a few out of there and bring them inside. Tack one up in the 3G and start running cap passes. Start on the farthest edge on the left or right and follow the edge. I use a weave pattern, like a Z but not so spread out, a tight Z if you will and pause on either side and come across the center quickly. Then do cap passes and cover up the whole plate, start at the bottom and go to the top.

When you run the cap on these throw out plates concentrate on making the width consistant. Don't draw lines to guide yourself, watch the weld pool and remember where you were at the last weld pool. When I first started I would do a count, pause 1-2-3, pause 1-2-3. Stop and look at it, looks to wide shorten the count. That worked well when I first started and you'll eventually loose it as you get better and start to notice weld pool over slag pool. I've told several guys about my little training sessions with scrap weld plates on the cap and they have not listened.....some are still trying to do a good cap pass after several months. While your playing with the cap pass, turn up your machine 10-15 or 20 amps. See how it runs, check the spatter on the plate and tap it with your chipping hammer, see if it comes off with more difficulty. Then turn your machine down 10-20 amps below see how it reacts. I would practice like this for about an hour or so each day, using scrap plates. Got real good at running cap passes straight up and dead even on width. I'd run a plate out and if I screwed up it would get covered with cap passes on both sides. Turning the machine up and down and even going crazy and bumping it up to 155 amps with a 1/8" 7018 will give you an idea on how it will react, what's the metal do? how is the slag? how is the spatter? All things that will help you learn.

When you find the right setting your slag should want to peel right off by itself, your weld spatter should brush off or you should be able to slide your chipping hammer across and it will fall off. If your to hot you'll have to beat the spatter off or it won't come off, the slag will make you think your gonna need dynamite. On your filler passes. Your gonna want your final filler pass just a tiny bit above flush on your plate, maybe 1/16th of an inch before you do your cap pass. Then you can start a zig zag and pause on the left, quick through center and then pause on the right and repeat. I thought about the video's myself but what it comes down to is tons of hood time. What I can't stress enough to some of the guys I go to school with, pay attention, watch the weld, watch your arm, hand movements. Watch your rod angle, not only up and down but side to side on the bevel. A little to much to the left and the next thing you have is undercut and a worthless plate. Listen to the arc, play around on a plate and long arc it, see how the sound changes, what do you notice about the weld when you long arc a 7018 rod?? There is something that happens when you try and long arc a 7018, that I will leave you to learn about. Then once you see all the things not to do, what it should sound like when it's not right you'll have a better understanding of what is right. Doe's this make sense??

Good luck to ya and keep at it!

Shawn
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 05:38
Do you mean running caps on a plate without any gap to fill and just a flat plate?I hope so cause you could be saving me a ton of time beveling my plates and running roots & hot passes just to practice the cap pass.I usually bevel enough for about 15 sets,then grind,then weld roots,then weld hot passes,and finally caps.It takes half a day to a whole day just to get to the cap passes in this pattern.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-14-2009 10:30
That is exactly what I'm saying, just use the old plates that everyone throws out or when you get done with one of your beveled plates and you don't have a passing plate run cap passes on that entire plate. You spending a whole day just to get to the cap passes is exactly why I just started running cap passes on the plate without beveling and all the other stuff. I also did several different types of caps, zig zag, half moon and some other stuff to figure out what I liked. I like the zig zag because I've done a ton of mig and that is how I do the mig so doing it the same way with the stick just seemed natural.
Parent - - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 06:04
First he had us run on one side of a 4in wide 6in long plate with stringers using E6010 rods.Second he had us run other side stringers with E7018 rods.Third he had us to run one side stringers overlapping with e6010.Fourth he had us do the same with e7018.5th practice t-joints flat position running 3 passes with e7018 and that was all as far as hands on my first semester which was the summer semester.Basically at that point i was out of the metal the school furnished me which was 6 plates 4in wide and 6in long.I Spent the rest of that semester just continously running beads on top of each other on 1 T-joint over and over.The summer semester was only like 3 months long and i was out of metal and on that  since midways through the semester and doing that 1 t-joint over and over.He keep saying metal should be coming anytime he put order in for it.Id ask every week "is the metal in?" but never came.Everything seemed cool until some students from previous semesters was coming in that graduated and receive their certificates and practicing after failing welding test they suppose to already have learned before graduating.Then i realized something aint righ there i got no metal,& previous graduates failing weld test after completing the course.This semester i started going to local steel distributor and purchasing metal to practice on.About a handful of fellow students has also started doing this themselves since they really want to learn also.If we hadnt we'd been out of metal 1/3-2/3's of this semester.We get carbon steel sheets 8in wide 4ft long for $15 of some scrap metal the distributor had alot left over from a past deal.At start of this semester halfway through the first week after first 2 days of sitting around waiting for the instructor to come out and give me some guidence on what to be practicing on and never happening i went to him and asked can you demo something i can be practicing on?He demo'ed the verticle up.Been working on it since and damn the semester is over.I got this week left to practice on that cap before out for the holidays then return for 3rd semester.If i dont get that cap this week im gonna have to walk away from it without certification and just jump to mig and also possibly stick pipe next semester so i can get some practice in on other processes.I'm afraid if i just stick to this stick verticle up and failing i might waste too much college time when i should be learning other processes.

I tried the verticle stringers a couple times and they looked awfull.My weave cap was looking halfway decent so jumped right back to it hoping to get it down quicker that starting over learning stringers verticle up.I think your advice might have been very helpful since i always have undercut so maybe im not pausing quite long enough and just need to look closely and learn how to tell when it has filled by watching the puddle before moving to the other side.Thxs for your help!
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 12-14-2009 10:41
eckstg
Welcome to the Forum.
But just so you know not everyone can weld vertical up. I have known welders that could pass any test with SMAW and couldn't weld flat with FCAW.
It is an ability, and it is not something all can Master.
But again welcome and good luck
Marshall
Parent - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 14:37
Thxs!
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-14-2009 10:43
That sucks about the metal but I've seen it happen where I'm at but the teach is pretty quick about getting us back to work. When your done with your plates, take them back in and cut the weld out, re-bevel them. That's what I've done and now the younger newer guys are doing it to. Most of the time their plates are to big anyhow so they have room plus it makes our metal last longer. I do it with pipe at school to, cut out the weld and re-bevel. When you do your cap, as I said make sure your filler is above the plate face. If you are below you'll have more chance of undercutting. You'll only want it about 1/16" above as I said earlier. Don't make the weld to wide, think it's three times the rod size your using. When your doing the cap and you get to the edge watch the weld pool flow into the top edge of the plate for your cap, then go across the center and pause on the opposite side. Let me see what I can do tonight, I might be able to get something for you to look at.
Parent - By eckstg (*) Date 12-14-2009 14:39
About to head out the door to school and give this a try!I probaly get 5x as much practice on the cap doing this so you probaly saved me a ton of time!What do you use to cut the grind out a cac cutter?We suppose to have one but ive never seen it demo'ed or used it myself.I'm gonna ask about it today so maybe i can start saving alot more plate myself.Thxs for all your help!!!
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 12-14-2009 15:48
E6010 is a reverse polarity rod only where the ground is negative and electrode positive period. there is no such term as negative current applying
to smaw welding processes it's either straight polarity or reverse polarity unless you have an old A/C buzz box. Why don't you have your so called instructor
put on his hood and weld and you can watch him run a verticle up . hands on is better than any video. practicing bad techniques is going to hurt you more than help.
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 12-14-2009 20:39
E6010 runs great on roots when on electrode negative.

The keyhole is very easy to control.... easier than DCEP.  Internal undercut is also easier to prevent.

Lincoln "Welding Pressure Pipe Lines & Piping Systems" literature states "Welding DC- on the root pass will not be harmful to either mechanical or metallurgical properties."

It also lists specific recommended procedures for DC- on roots.

I can attest is has excellent operator appeal.... given a choice, I prefer DC- on roots.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding video vertical up looking through welders lens?

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