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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.8
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-16-2009 14:06
:rant on:

How does a person know for sure which joints on a project are demand-critical when the engineer won't put any of this information on the contract drawings, yet call out D1.8 in the specs? Why is it that every General Contractor is a 25 yo and this is his first major project and can't answer any questions given to him. Where are all of the people with experience who can answer questions these days?

I could spend time and money qualifying/certifying all of my welders and also getting myself up to speed for the UT, only to find out that none of the shop joints will be demand-critical and that it only applies to the erector and his men who are welding in the field.

I just went through this with two jobs recently and found out that none of the shop joints effected me, but here we go again with another really, really, fast paced project(read no time in the schedule for all of this testing).

:rant off:
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 12-16-2009 15:05
John, John, John
In answer to your first question, He-He, A good detailer will request this type of information. and a good E.O.R. will provide. It is solely the E.O.R.'s responsibility to designate these joints or connections.
In answer to the second question see answer to the first question. LoL
Haven't you seen the ad's on how to become a General Contractor on T.V. lately, like itt technical. You and I both know that not only does the education play a big part in the qualifications of a general contractor but experience is what makes them respected.
But I am with you on the waste of monies that these specifications create especially when they are not specifically laid out, I like to call them the generic notes on the contract, there may be no demand critical joints on that particular project but they have it there in the rest of the notes because the E.O.R. had written them before on another job sorta like the one you are doing now and left them there because it looks important. The government job spec.'s are that way everything but the kitchen sink listed but only certain things actually apply.
Good Luck John
Don't let it frustrate ya. LoL
Marshall
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-16-2009 15:06
John, we ran into this on a couple of our projects in the past year doing the shop TPI for jobs going out of state.  We put in our RFI's for more info from the engineer as early as possible.  Right in the codes and specs most state the responsibility of the EOR to state such things.  So, if they are not stated, especially after we turn in a RFI, we CONCLUDE (NOT ASSUME, that's dangerous) that the D1.8 will not apply to what is being shop fabricated under our care. 

We do push for solid answers before work commences on that part of the project, but, we are not supposed to hold up work either.  If we have to 'go back' to get it done, it is their added cost. 

On the other hand, how do you take note of the differences in wind speeds for D1.8 compared to D1.1 (3mph vs 5mph)?  Marking of welds by the welder? Maximum Interpass Temps? Surface Roughness?  And several of the other 'new' items that you and Al recently were pointing out in the NEW D1.8?  We do need to know ahead of time.  But I believe it is their responsibility to let us know.  I guess documentation is the best way to cover ourselves.  We tried to make sure.  Now the ball is in their court.  Or is it?  Puts us in a real difficult spot.

Just my two tin pennies worth of comments, didn't really give you an 'answer'.  Don't know if there is one.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-16-2009 15:42
Some of the other notes in this job spec call for my WPSs to list the electrode mfg and trade name, that isn't a very big deal, but I need to address this issue because my WPSs do not list a specific electrode mfg or any trade names. Good thing we use primarily pre-qualified procedures, because we would be locked into a particular electrode mfg if we specify the name on the PQR. We don't use any junk electrodes, but I like being able to keep the mfg's honest in their pricing by having a choice.

They also want me to show CC or CV on my WPSs....I have CV equipment for the FCAW WPSs and CC equipment for the SMAW WPSs, but I haven't spelled that out, so I need to address that too. Some of these things were always "givens" in the past and you just assume that others knew that CC equipment is for stick welding...LOL I guess that I can see that one because in the field, FCAW welding could possibly be done with the wrong power source.

As for writing RFIs or writing exclusions in our contracts...that is something where we just can't win sometimes. Take field touch up painting for instance....we seem to be the only fabricator around who gets bitten with touch up painting. During the bidding, we write an exclusion for touch up paint, and then get forced into it when the Customer starts reading their own specs and realize that it is written in there in several places. Every erector that we have ever dealt with has told us that we are the only fabricator who bothers them with touch up painting(field welds, deck welds, bolted connections, and even bolt heads and nuts, or the sheared end of a TC bolt, ect).

Well, it seems that sometimes if you just ignore the specs and don't askl any questions, then all of the problems just go away on their own...LOL Heck we might even close a few more bids if we quit reading the specs and just throw a number at the job....LOL, I think that is what everybody else does, especially when you hear of the other bids and that we weren't even close with our bid.
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 12-16-2009 17:31
Those vague or non existent specs or answers to your RFI's are a real mess and can turn a good profitable job into a money pit.
We ask once, if an answer doesn't come soon we ask again and after that send a form that I found years ago that usually gets a immediate responce. If it doesn't I think it at least gives us a paper trail to cover ourselfs somewhat. Usually send it "certified mail reciept requested" so I have evidence that it actually arrived.
I won't even go into how much work is lost to contractors who try to get by hoping nobody enforces the fine print at a later date, but I'm not willing to roll those dice.
If we procede without requested clarification then they are usually looking at considerable change orders. My situation probably differs from that of brent and jwright650 but this has really worked for us.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 12-16-2009 18:19
I hear ya John.  It's sort of important for the engineer to designate members and connections that are part of the SLRS.  They're also required to show the configuration of the connections, show the connection material specifications and sizes, indicate the lowest anticipated service temperature of the structure, if the structure is not enclosed and maintained at a temperature of 50 degrees F or higher, note the locations and dimensions of protected zones, note the locations where gusset plates are to be detailed to accommodate inelastic rotation, and as you said, show the locations of demand critical welds.  Once we get all that information from the EOR, then we have to check behind the detailer to make sure he/she shows the member as "SLRS" on the shop drawings.  Once those members are identified by the detailer, we have to go through the same drill because they've failed to show the locations of demand critical shop welds and the locations and dimensions of protected zones.  Very frustrating.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 12-17-2009 19:40
I get your concern.  Your thinkin to the extremem to cover your ass just in case, but you know it ALL can't be part of the seismic restriaint system, only certain parts of the building.  And it is the engineers resp. to point that out, but w/ a fast track its tough.
Sorry I cant add more.
Chris
(come work for me, It'll be all good then):)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-17-2009 19:41
I'd love to come help you Chris, but the drive everyday would be a bit much....LOL
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 12-18-2009 00:52
John,

We're closer!!
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-18-2009 11:47
LOL...I'll keep that in mind.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-21-2009 22:48
as a 23 year old should I feel disrespected about that age comment?

Don't worry I'll let it slide this time, because I'm not a GC and this isn't my first project.

I don't think it's a new phenomena that the people calling out weld details on prints aren't usually qualified or experienced for the task.  I spent a good deal of an internship, re detailing prints for mechanical engineers who weren't rock solid on welding details and what is or isn't possible. I don't think age is a factor.

If I had a nickel for every time an engineer called out the wrong spec, or didn't classify welds properly. I would be retired by the time I'm 25.

The people with experience aren't making the rooky mistakes so  you never get to call them these days. :)  although I'm surprised the recent financial crisis means that it's very hard for young engineers to get in the door or get promoted, no one is retiring these days. The numbers of new engineers are down not up.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-26-2009 05:02

>as a 23 year old should I feel disrespected about that age comment?


Not hardly..LOL
It is very frustrating when these projects are fast paced.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.8

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