As a structural engineer I'm not as familiar with D1.1 as I would like to be. From the few welding seminars that I've attended, I always hear that "Qualified Welders" should be specified and not "Certified Welders." After reading through this board it seems like the two terms are the same and I can't find a distinction in AWS. Can someone clarify the difference between certified and qualified? Does certified only matter to inspectors?
Thanks in advance
The construction codes I am most familiar with require "certified" welders. Certified means that an authorized representative from the company the welder is employed by, has accepted and is attesting to the fact that the welder has passed a qualification test in accordance with the referenced code (listed on the welder performance qualification test record). The welder must pass a qualification test specified in the code first.
Certification is legelese for: the company has accepted responsibility for the welder (in writing and validated by a signature).
It seems like an administrative detail, but if you are dealing with many welders and/or subcontracted welders, it becomes necessary to keep track of who has actually been accepted by the construction company.
One example I am familiar with: We hired some subs to do piping in accordance with B31.1. We decided to accept the welder's company certs based on a review of the applicable (subcontractor) WPS and each welder's test record. After making sure all the applicable variables were acceptable, we had to sign the bottom of each welder's test record indicating our acceptance. That was us certifying that the test record covered the necessay ground and that we accepted responsibility for the welder. For company employees the acceptance signature means the same thing, it's just not something most people spend a lot of time thinking about.
Long winded...sorry.
Charles
Qualification and Certification- two different words.
Qualification- (welder performance qualification) the demonstration of a welder's ability to produce welds meeting prescribed standards.
Certification- (welder certification) written certification that a welder has produced welds meeting a prescribed standard of welder performance.
You can take a "qualified" welder (someone who has the knowledge and experience) and qualify them by testing. Once you verify their "qualification" you can certify them. Clear as mud, eh?
The certification is just a means of verifying that someone is qualified. I have had occasion to tell welders that they cannot weld on one of my projects, even though they were certified. They just could not produce an acceptable weld.
Now, don't get me wrong- I have never told the foreman to get rid of someone, just that they cannot weld. If they have something else for them to do, let them do it.
Certification tells us, as inspectors, that this individual has, at one time, passed a test.
Roger King
Simply put,
Certified= has a paper trail to prove they passed a test at one time.
Qualified= does not
AAAhhh but! Certified does not mean qualified!
There are many processes and codes and almost each industry and every buisness has there own procedures.
You can be both certified and qualified in a process or many processes but sometimes it comes down to a procedure that is the private property of an employer (company) that you must qualify to.
My empolyer has volumes of WPS (some 45 pages long). So many if fact you need a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out who is qualified to do what.
Like the man said. Its as clear as mud.
I think Ron has hit upon the distinction that I prefer. To me its a laymans distinction, rather than a lawyers, but nonetheless good.
A certified welder has, under controlled and observed conditions, produced a joint in accordence with code. (D1, Boiler, Mil-spec, whatever)
Now many employers will not turn a "certified" welder loose on a project until they have additionally proven other factors. (Fitting, Layout, etc).
In fact many employers devise their own skills tests that are NOT code tests and hense the welder is not certified unless or until a code requirement comes along.
UCSB defininition is verbatim from the current issue of ANSI/AWSA3.0-2001 Standard Welding Terms and Definitions. Each welding code has a specific Welder Qualification form to fill out, which documents the specific qualified welding procedure used during testing. Those forms will had a heading stating: Welder, Welding Operator or Tack Welder Qualification Test Record AWS D1.1 or Welder Performance Qualification (WPQ) ASME Sec. IX. Both of these individual codes have a ending sentence refering to certification.
AWS D1.1 - We, the undersigned, certify that the statements in this record are correct and that the test welds were prepared, welded, and tested in accordance with the requirements of section 4 of ANSI/AWS D1,1, (YEAR) Structural Welding Code - Steel.
ASME Sec. IX - We certify that the statements in this record are correct and that the test coupons were prepared, welded, and tested in accordance with the requirements of Section IX of the ASME Code.
It is my interpretation that these form document both "Welder Qualification" and also "Welder Certification". All welding codes require an additional documet for weld continuity log to maintain current
Qualification/Certification.
Jinx
Greetings All,
I am not familiar with how things operate in the US but down here in Australasia we have a pretty clear difference between " qualified" and "certified".
If a company pays for a welder to perform a weld test to ASME IX, AWS D1.1, BS/EN 287 etc in accordance with a WPS owned by that company then that welder qualification is only valid for that WPS and is not transferrable to another company. (please correct me if I am wrong)
If the weld complies then this welder is deemed to be "qualified"
In New Zealand the welder qualification for structural steel is NZS 4711.
This involves welding a test coupon which is then radiographed as well as having 1 x bend and 2 x fracture tests. If they comply with the code requirements then the welder is issued with a pocket size cardboard ticket that belongs to them ( even though the company may have paid for the test) and this is transferrable between companies.
This welder is then deemed to be "certified".
In Australia the welder qualification for structural steel is AS 1796. This not only invoves welding a test coupon, showing competency at oxy gouging, but also requires a theory examination.If they comply with the code requirements they are also issued with a transferrable "certificate".
This welder is then deemed to be "certified"
A "qualified" welder could be someone "off the street" who is competent at joining two bits of steel together but has no idea of what is happening metallurgically once they strike an arc but hopefully a "certified" welder has had a bit more in-depth training.
Regards,
Shane
Certified and qualified are really not the same thing, although some consider it so.
As posted earlier, There is a distinct difference between certified and qualified.
As far as I can see, a qualified welder is one who has passed a certain test at a certain time. This is why we do "welder quals"
The "certified" moniker is somewhat vague, although it is used very often. Sometimes too often.
It also seems to me that if a qualified welder may be "certified" by the company he works for. They (the company) is guaranteeing his work.
Right or wrong, I don't know. Let me know what you think.
In the big picture, though, a qualified or certified welder has made one good weld, one time. This really has little to do with his day to day performance.
I am a AWS CWI, and I have seen a great number of "so-called certified welders really not meet the standard, or any standard.
Before the flames start, yes, I am a qualified welder for 20+ years with a shop of my own for the last 15.
Any input to this subject is greatly appreciated.
Good Luck
brande
As far as the problem of a certified welder making one good weld one time: some haven't even done that, I know of one instance where in a lax test enviroment, several guys welded 1" test coupons 3/4 of the way out flat on the table, then clamped them up and finnished vertical and overhead. I wasn't there, but know people that were, and several of the welders (?!) admitted to it later.
The answer is harsh and constant inspection. In our field you if you get "lucky" on the test it doesn't matter, you will be caught by the x ray truck before you can do any damage. The test only gives you a chance to make welds, those welds are under constant scrutiny. In cases where they accept an existing set of papers, and don't inspect welds, then my guess is weld quality is a crap shoot, hopefully the application isn't too critical.
JTMcC.
Welder qualification is always by test in USA. A welder qualifies for a process and position; a company can then certify him to their particular requirements ( welder qualification in USA is good for life so long as a weldor has welded in the position, and process he is qualified for; within a 6 month period). Not muddy at all.
Doesn't a welder actually qualify by producing an acceptable weld in accordance with group of essential variables? Process and position would be just two of those variables.
Vonash;
I agree with one exception; certain codes allow the engineer of record to accept qualifications (certifications) issued by previous employers. In this case, if the EOR chose to do so, the welder qualification would not then be by testing at least within that one specific company.
Depends! ASME & AWS look at position differently.
Yes Qualification is a no brainer but how dose it apply to Certification?
Certification has implications beyond simple qualification.
I am Certified welder! That line will turn heads and if you are lucky get you a chance to Qualify for a potential employer.
Excellent answer Ron!
In short, qualification is the act of the welder proving their skills and abilities to deposit sound weld metal. Certification is the act of the employer or testing agency attesting (in writing) that the welder has met certain established criteria.
Sorry guys, I was addressing AWS code requirements; however my original post stands.
Here's how the code reads:
1) Annex B - contractor "...the party responsible for performing the welding under the code...the contractor, fabricator, erector, manufacturer, etc".
2) Annex B - Welder "One who performs a...welding operation".
3) Annex B - Welder performance qualification " The demonstration of a welder's ability to produce welds meeting a prescribed standard of welder performance".
4) Annex B - Welder Certification " Written certification that a welder has produced welds meeting a prescribed standard of welder performance". ( See # 1 above. The contractor is the certifying authority; not the "independent testing agency". The contractor hires welders and either qualifies them by testing, which case the coupons may be sent to a lab for x-ray or bends, etc., or accepts their previous qualification records. The contractor can then certify the welders and present those certs as part of the bid package.)
5) Part C 4.18 "...After successfully completing the welder qualification tests, the welder should be considered to have minimum acceptable qualifications".
I hope this helps, and I was not too abrasive.
Regards,
Vonash
Yes I am sure most understand that.
Certification? Have you ever seen or heard of a certificate that delcares any one to be CERTIFIED WELDER? (I have not) or have you seen the Labs written results.
Through my employer I have multiple qualifications in GTAW, SMAW, SAW and GMAW but they will not even give us a copy of the Lab results let alone a Certificate.
The same applies to previous employers. You test on there time and they foot the bill for the Lab and they own the whole nine yards. Why should they release it to you to go job hunting.
Now if you go to a Lab and you cover the expense its your "Certificate of Qualification". Right?
Also if you attend classes they sometimes Issue you a Certificate and as I said before, all the above will get you a chance to QUALIFY.
By the way. My empolyer's sale force like to throw out the 'Certified Welders" line all the time, and they are correct in saying so because they hold the Certification papers as much as you may hold a Pedigree on a Hound or Show dog. And that is my favorite way of refering to Certification.
If one should escape from the kennel he's just a dog untill some one holds paper on'em again. You think the loser will just turn over the paper work to the finder?
Hi Ron, I'm curious why you think a lab Certifies welders once the coupons are sent to them?
Labs conduct the destructive or non-destructive tests per the code the company requests "AWS D1.1 - ASMW Sect. IX-etc.". They are responsible only to ensure any defects or discontunities do not exceed the acceptance criteria provided by code. They issue a note / document to the company that conducted the test stating if the results were within the limits of the code. They don't make further decisions or issue Certifications. Companies issue these stating you are certified to their specific "WPS" or the variables included therein. Labs can't conduct welder testing in lieu of the company unless a representative is on hand. Companies can share the testing if each provides a rep. to witness the tests. Its a shame the companies you've worked for won't issue you a Certification card as it's very useful in getting your foot in the door for other companies to qualify for their WPS's. Sorry this is so long.
Certificates issued from training facilities are another way to show someone you have some experience and may be presented the opportunity to qualify for them.
I hope your not more confused now than before. I've been a CWI for 9 years now and I Certified to AWS D1.1.
Not that I can answer your question but I'd like to attemp it.
Welders are Qualified to various WPS's variables based on welding experience."Trust me there are a lot of variables both essential or non-essential. Most are tested either to ASME Sect. IX or AWS D1.1, the later is the Structural Welding Code you referred to. Companies "Certify" welders on their specific WPS to work on their job. Some companies let an Engineer make the call to accept these qualifications because the procedures are prequalified and the variables are the same. Not all codes permit that. Reputable companies still conduct pre-work testing "highly recommended" or 100% inspection of the first several welds made.
Reguardless of the term, If welders only weld periodically. "just enough to maintain the certifications for a company" the quality suffers as practice is the only way to hone those skills. I have tested a few hundred folks of which many have failed which leads you to wonder what level of quality is acceptable or what level of inspection is acceptable. The acceptance criteria is pretty clear. I recommend an on-site testing facility because the proof is in the testing results.
Oh man, I agree with Tab-1999.
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