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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Alcohol for Cleaning
- - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-15-2009 15:56
My program here presently uses MEK for cleaning, and I am going over to alcohol.  My operation is primarily aluminum and steel solid wire GMAW.  I need to know:

1. What type/grade should I use?

2. What container options are you most familiar with (can I get pre-treated kem-wipes)?

3. Leads to reliable suppliers, preferably local (Texas).

Thanks, all!
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-15-2009 20:24
I wouldn't switch to alcohol as you intend to do, because alcohol doesn't remove greases and oils as well as other solvents. What's the problem with MEK? (methyl ethyl acetone). Is it too expensive?
If you've decided to use alcohol anyway, ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is the most common. Don't at all use methyl alcohol (methanol) because it's very poisonous. 
Propyl and butyl alcohols are better solvents that ethyl, but they're more difficult to find. Here in Brazil ethyl alcohol is found even in supermarkets.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil 
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 12-15-2009 21:42
In the US, pure ethyl alcohol is expensive, as its taxed heavily.
Denatured alcohol, is ethyl alcohol, with toxic chemicals added so that liquor tax doesn't need to be paid.  In the SLX denatured product, gasoline is part of what is added (along with methanol), and while this isn't as toxic as methanol, it also could leave behind traces of additive when used for cleaning (although its probably not enough to make a difference).
I wouldn't use this as a cleaning agent, but its a good fuel for certain lamps and camp stoves, and a solvent/thinner for shellac.

I use 91% isopropyl alcohol, which can be gotten in quart sizes at many drug stores.  Isopropanol is MUCH better at dissolving grease than ethanol.
99% isopropanol is sold as "fuel injection safe gas line antifreeze), but gets pricey.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-15-2009 23:55
I agree entirely with you. Denaturated alcohol isn't good as cleaning agent because it contains substances that remain on the cleant surface (is "cleant" the past participle of the verb to clean?) after it evaporates. 
Since your experience with isopropyl alcohol is good, I would recommend to use it.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 12-16-2009 00:09
Mr. Crisi,

"Cleaned" would be the correct tense. 

I have learned many things from your input to this forum.  I also appreciate your knowledge and use of the English language.

Thanks for your many posts.

Griff
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 12-16-2009 00:06
I need help here. I cannot seem to find gasoline listed in the ingredients.

Product Name: Alcohol denatured with IPA and MeOH
Catalog Codes: SLA4474, SLA1282
CAS#: Mixture.
RTECS: Not applicable.
TSCA: TSCA 8(b) inventory: Ethyl alcohol 200 Proof;
Isopropyl alcohol; Methyl alcohol
CI#: Not applicable.
Synonym:
Chemical Name: Alcohol, Denatured with IPA and Methanol
Chemical Formula: C2-H5-OH
Contact Information:
Sciencelab.com, Inc.
14025 Smith Rd.
Houston, Texas 77396
US Sales: 1-800-901-7247
International Sales: 1-281-441-4400
Order Online: ScienceLab.com
CHEMTREC (24HR Emergency Telephone), call:
1-800-424-9300
International CHEMTREC, call: 1-703-527-3887
For non-emergency assistance, call: 1-281-441-4400
Section 2: Composition and Information on Ingredients
Composition:
Name CAS # % by Weight
Ethyl alcohol 200 Proof 64-17-5 90
Isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0 5
Methyl alcohol 67-56-1 5

Griff
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-16-2009 03:07
If it was denatured with a pertolium distilate [gasoline] they would not list it as gasoline, as that is not an element, compound or chemical in itself, just a word used to describe a group of hydrocarbons.

From memory, what I used  was denatured with methanol.

I agree that alcohol is not a great oil/grease solvent.
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 12-16-2009 12:01
Ethyl alcohol 200 Proof 64-17-5 90
Isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0 5
Methyl alcohol 67-56-1 5

None of the above look like an element of gasoline.

Griff
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 12-17-2009 15:42 Edited 12-17-2009 20:11
Ethyl alcohol is denatured, to avoid taxes.  As such, in the US, the government regulates the formula for denaturing, and the standard formula's are listed in the "Code of Federal Regulations".  SLX, was a designated formula from the prohibition days, although I forget what it stands for, but that would correspond to formula #20 today.  Formula #19 is more commonly used, but still contains gasoline.
SD alcohol, is "specifically denatured", and would be an alcohol denatured using an alternate process, for safe use within some other product (like toothpaste, etc.).

Denatured alcohol you buy in the hardware store, must be denatured using one of the standard listed formulas, with any alteration (even adding odorant, or colorant), requiring approval from the ATF.  See:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;rgn=div5;view=text;node=27%3A1.0.1.1.17;idno=27;sid=1ce323b41d8176068fcdb3baf5e431f8;cc=ecfr#27:1.0.1.1.17.3.237.1
(edited above: I changed the link to one that points to the CFR in the National Archives website)

From CFR part 21:

§21.22 Formula No. 18.
To every 100 gallons of ethyl alcohol of not less than 160 proof add:
2.50 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n- butyl ketone;
0.125 gallon of pyronate or a similar compound;
0.50 gallon acetaldol (beta-hydroxybutyraldehyde); and
1.00 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane.

§21.23 Formula No. 19.  [Probably the most common denatured alcohol sold at retail.]
To every 100 gallons of ethyl alcohol of not less than 160 proof add:
4.0 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n- butyl ketone; and
1.0 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane.

§21.24 Formula No. 20.
(a) Formula. To every 100 gallons of ethyl alcohol of not less than 195 proof add:
A total of 2.0 gallons of either unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, kerosene, or deodorized kerosene; or any combination of these.
(b) Authorized use. Restricted to fuel use, comparable to specially denatured alcohol "Use Code No." 611, 612, 613, 620, and 630.

Notice something interesting in here?
Methyl alcohol, and isopropyl alcohol aren't listed at all.  They're not actually added to denature alcohol.  They're just byproducts of the production of ethyl alcohol, which aren't removed (kind of a why bother removing them, since it's poison anyway, situation).
The dirty secret, is that when sugar is fermented, both ethyl and methyl alcohol are produced.  Ethyl alcohol is the larger constituent, but the tiny proportion of methyl alcohol left remaining after distillation and filtration can be responsible for many hangover symptoms, and would need to be listed in an industrially regulated product.
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-17-2009 17:21
Awesome.  Drink anyone? :)

Thanks, I never knew there was gasoline in any alcohol.

So I'm guessing if I have to go this way, I should be going with Isopropyl.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-17-2009 19:20
1st. Thank you, Griff, now I know a little bit more of English language than I did yesterday.
2nd. According to Griff, denaturated alcohol in the US doesn't contain any petroleum product. According to Robert (rlitman), it contains either kerosene or gasoline. Who's right?
Here in Brazil, denaturated alcohol does contain petroleum products.
Giovanni S. Crisi

Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-17-2009 19:51
Hola Giovanni!

If you think that your students can put this link to use, well here's something which might interest them:

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~newton/Chy251_253/Topics.html

May you and your family have a MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A WONDERFUL, SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 12-18-2009 17:05
Looks like I must concede to Robert.

Griff
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 12-18-2009 17:06
I stand corrected.

Thank you

Griff
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-19-2009 03:42
MEK is methyl ethyl ketone.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 12-21-2009 02:46
nasty stuff
great for solvent wash b4 coatings
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-16-2009 18:19
Thank you, gentlemen.

I was leaning toward 91% Isopropyl Alcohol.

FYI, the reason for the switch is that MEK is rather toxic, and we are trying to reduce its use here.  My paint shop still needs to use it, but the weld shop already uses an aqueous degreaser, so the alcohol would be icing on the cake for anything we do here.  Also, the rags, once used, are considered HAZMAT.  Alcohol rags are not.  Huge cut in the waste stream.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-16-2009 21:26 Edited 12-16-2009 22:34
Here you go Curt! Chew on that for a bit, then decide! :) Btw, MERRY CHRISTMAS and may I take this opportunity to wish you and your family a safe and wonderful HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~newton/Chy251_253/Lectures/Solvents/Solvents.html

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-16-2009 22:28
Thanks Hank.  Merry Christmas to you too, you ol' salt.  May the new year find you well and happy.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-20-2009 07:17
I figured this would be a more debated issue Curt.    Well I will tell you the same thing, Isopropyl alcohol in the highest concentration vs price you can get.   When running a lot of sheet aluminum, an acetone wipe worked well for cleaning off oils and stamps from the mills (yes I know its not the best degreaser) its cheap and worked well for that purpose.   For any serious degreasing alcohol is just not going to work well but for pre-weld cleaning on already "clean" metal it works ok and leaves no residue.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas!!!
Tommy
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-20-2009 13:39
Thanks Tommy, I was hoping you'd chime in.  And Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 12-23-2009 20:18
I am using alchohol right now to clean the ice off in my glass.....Merry Christmas all~
Parent - By rodofgod (**) Date 12-24-2009 10:47
Hi All!

I used alcohol last night to clean the ice in my glass as well! However, the side effects this morning are of a very toxic nature!

Merry Christmas All!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Alcohol for Cleaning

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