Aviation Certification

Date 12-23-2009 20:12

Milton Gravitt
AWS D17.1 - Specification for Fusion Welding for Aerospace Applications
I am not familiar with it myself.
Good Luck
Marshall

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-23-2009 20:51

Marshall, I'm not sure that is really the one he is after.

When I used to do repairs on wing tanks on training planes we had to do them to an FAA regulation of some kind. I haven't been able to find it. Also, one of their guys was an FAA Certified Inspector for documenting that all repairs of any kind done to the planes were within FAA specs and the plane was safe to fly. He had to check visually and pressure test our welds.

Aerospace is probably different in many ways from Aircraft that stay within atmosphere.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-23-2009 22:40

There is *no* FAA welding certification. Never has been.

Scary thing is that if no in house or voluntary requirement is in place, any Liscenced A&P mechanic may sign off for a weld and there is no formal training required for the welder beyond the half semester most A&P schools devote to gas welding.

Most of the larger players do bother with welder qualifications, whether they are in-house, DOD or D17.1

If you are looking for aerospace work.. It is not all that important to carry aerospace certs. You will be tested as part of the interview process and certs don't transfer between one aerospace firm and the next..

If you can do the job... Apply and prove it to them... They will certify you as part of your job once you make the cut. Which I doubt will be any trouble for you Milt.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-23-2009 22:55 Edited 12-23-2009 22:57

Okay, Lawrence, thank you for pointing that out. My statement needed clarification, but, I did not say we were 'certified' to FAA. There were some kind of welding guidelines or regulations. It may have just been part of a quality control system. I can't remember and can't find the paperwork. We haven't done any in several years as they changed planes and got a different style of tank. The filler tube and flange area were where the problem was.

And the inspector was similar to mechanics/inspectors who check over the road tractor/trailer rigs and give them a DOT certification as to being road worthy. He did the same with the planes and had to check our work. All we had to do was show our certifications for GTAW alum welding, which happened to be D1.1. They were all satisfied.

Because of the type of school (won't give the name) they did have quality control that was followed pretty well.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Duke

Date 12-24-2009 00:07

How is GTAW alum welding D1.1?

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-24-2009 05:21 Edited 12-24-2009 05:24

Hi Welderbrent! ;)

That doesn't make sense to me either since Aluminum is NOT covered in AWS D1.1... Now structural Aluminum is covered in AWS D1.2, so maybe that's what you meant?

I have confidence that what Larry has described to you is accurate since he does have extensive experience in working with situations and circumstances whereby dealing with the FAA was very common for the position he had working a few moons ago with United Airlines... Larry pretty much is the most knowledgeable person in here when it comes to aerospace, or aircraft welding procedures as well as how to navigate all of the associated codes and standards affiliated with that sort of work that involves welding using a variety of different processes besides GTAW also.

So again, I would say with some real honest confidence that what Larry's writing and explaining in this thread is what it is, and is correct... However, I'm not an expert in that part of the overall welding industry, so I cannot speak with authority regarding the specifics, but there are a few in here who can verify what Larry's is describing, and one person that immediately comes to mind would be "Tommyjoking!" I do believe that he'll chime in here soon enough to validate what Larry has already mentioned, not that it needs to be, but just in case you need to read it from another areospace/aircreaft guy, he would be the one that comes to mind, and there are others like "Ringo" as well, but I haven't read from him in a bit, but hopefully he'll chime in also! ;)

Btw, MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO BOTH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AS WELL!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 12-24-2009 02:55

I am not so sure a mechanic can sign off on an airframe weld. Seems to Me that an airframe inspector would have to sign off on an airframe weld.
If You build an experimental aircraft [that is what a home built is covered under] the welds as well as all the rest has to be inspected by an inspector.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-24-2009 05:19 Edited 12-24-2009 05:45

Dave.

I'm sure.

I was the welding instructor for United Airlines and worked for them 15 years.

Who inspects what, and to what extent the inspection must be carried is generally spelled out by either in-house or OEM guidelines and standard practices. Edit (in my time this was referred to as a class 1 doccument and these are indeed auditable by FAA for accuracy and to be sure the latest docs are being used) Just fills you with confidence for your next flight eh?

The only FAA mandate is that repairs are signed off by a liscened A&P mechanic, or now-a-days they call them AMT (aviation mantainence technician)

That being said... and I don't want to go too far off from the original post... There are *very* few airframe welds.. Mostly welding is done on powerplant componants and support bracketry, tubing and intake hardware... Very few welded structures in the commercial biz.. but a little with the adven to friction stirr. More welded structures in private/small aircraft,,, inspection levels vary there depending on aircraft type etc. but the A&P liscence is the basic minimum.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-24-2009 14:47 Edited 12-24-2009 15:03

Okay, guys, yes, I hit wrong key and didn't catch it as I checked my post. Wrong code. Good catch.

Please, I am not disputing Lawrence. And as I stated, it was years ago, I know they gave me some paperwork, which could easily have been just a QC program. I indicated that in my last post. The inspector, could easily have been in house QC and making sure everything was up to par for FAA audits or whatever. The guy who was my contact told me everything had to be checked and approved by this other guy, whatever his title was, and he had to answer to the FAA. That's all I can remember.

EDIT: please note first post, I said, an FAA regulation of some kind. I still stand by that. If the institution had to have a QC program audited by the FAA, then it was an inspection brought about by FAA requirements, was it not? I'm asking. And this is what I believed from info supplied me by the customer, right or wrong.

Also, forget who said it, we had nothing to do with the frame. We were repairing the neck connection into the fuel tank. Also, occassionally, rub through holes where the straps holding the tanks would cause them to leak. Nothing structural. Just sealed the tanks back up.

Now, to the reason I even said anything in the first place. The OP had asked if there were any aviation codes. He was referred to Aerospace Codes which I responded I didn't think were the correct direction to look. (Though they wouldn't hurt to have in such a case.) I think that if I understand Lawrence correctly, my general direction was correct. Aviation and Aerospace are not one and the same. Different animals. And, it appears, welding upon airplanes is a very lax environment in many ways.

Not now, nor ever, especially in this thread, trying to pass myself off as an expert in this area. And especially was not in any way trying to contradict Lawrence. Please read my previous two posts carefully if you doubt this. I respect Lawrence, and you Henry, very much in these areas. No one else had put up any info and I just shared my personal experience which may be somewhat muddled in memory because of the time span. And, as I said, I cannot find any of that paperwork, way too far back for my records to be easily accessible.

So, I for one picked up some things of interest here. I hope that especially Lawrence's input answered the OP's question. If I muddied the waters, I apologize. Just trying to make sure the question was properly answered, and I did not think Aerospace was the way to send him.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-25-2009 07:23

Hi Brent!

No need to apologize buddy!!! :) :) :) And I hope you don't think I was getting on your case or anything like that at all... It's just that Larry does usually have his proverbial "Stuff" together when it comes to knowledge and background on most stuff related to planes and such, so I tend to just sit back most of the time and read what he has to write regarding that arena... So I was just making an observation here. ;) Like I said before, NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!!! :) :) :) MERRY CHRISTMAS TO BOTH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ALSO AND I HOPE EVERYONE IN HERE HAS A SAFE AND WONDERFUL HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 12-25-2009 01:21

Two of My close friends are A&P mechanics, one for American Airlines , the other for a govt. contractor. While they both know a whole lot about the machines they service, I don't think You would want to fly in a brand new untested homebuilt knowing THEY were the only ones who inspected the thing.

You are right, they only learned a little bit about welding at the A&P school, and it was a good one. One of the guys I mentioned is a pretty good amature welder, but He didn't learn it at A&P school.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-25-2009 06:58 Edited 12-25-2009 17:20

It's one of my pet peeves Dave.

To the FAA a weld is pretty much like a rivet... the job is done and the work can be signed off by an A&P. It is also no problem for the mechanic to sign off their own work, which to us sounds wierd.... I see some of the logic behind it.. but there can also be some pretty strong conserns. A&P mechanics have some pretty extensive authority as far as signing off on work..... It's a complicated situation as far as the big picture goes. I could talk for hours about the ins and outs... but my fingers would melt.

The biggest beef is the way unliscenced workers both in the U.S. and out of country can work under an A&P doing complicated repairs and its pretty much on the honor system that the A&P signs off for the work of many workers (including critical welds)... The FAR's are not favorable when it comes to control of mantianence on U.S. carriers... at least not in my opinion.. I'm sure the CEO's are quite happy.

BTW American Airlines has an excellent top shelf welding program.... I've worked with their welding instructor in the 90's on a collaberative project and he sits with me on the D17 committee. He came and reviewed our recurrent welder training program at United when he was charged to improve American Airlines system.. He took much of what we did and improved on it.. I believe American Airlines repair welders to be held to the highest standard of any of the U.S. majors as far as welder performance qualification... I hold American Airlines maintenence program in *very* high regard... especially when compared to some of the other carriers.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 12-30-2009 19:42

To back Lawrence up (not like he needs it lol)

At any repair station an A&P Mech can stamp off ANY repair weld ....installations may or may not require (usually do) a house inspector to buy them off. The saving grace is that most flight critical welding: Turbines, compressors, OXy-fuel lines etc. will require some NDT to satisfy procedures before they can be put back in service. There are not any real regulations from the FAA concerning welding, the certs and testing done by companies is voluntary and requirements are per their own (or suppliers) specs. All you have to do is follow the repair manuals per the manufacture and your good to go.

By Milton Gravitt (***)

Date 12-30-2009 23:02

Tommy this is what I've came up with by doing a little research.

http://www.hitechweldingfl.com/certifications.html

M.G.

By waccobird (****)

Date 12-24-2009 15:57

welderbrent
aer·o·space (âr-sps)
adj.
1. Of or relating to Earth's atmosphere and the space beyond.
2. Of or relating to the science or technology of flight.

It is not just about space ships.
Marshall

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 12-24-2009 17:41

Point taken Marshall.

But I don't believe when MG is inquiring about code and certification requirements for aviation that it is a requirement that one be certified to any of the aerospace codes. Again, I could be wrong. I will truly leave all of that to Lawrence and others named in other posts in this thread.

At any rate, I hope none were offended by anything I said and that I did not lead anyone astray with my input.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Milton Gravitt (***)

Date 12-28-2009 21:14

I would like to say thanks to everyone that gave an opinion on the subject, but I guess you will have to prove that you can do the welding just like any other place you apply for.
I wish everyone on this forum a HAPPY NEWYEAR.

M.G.