Tungsten Size

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-07-2010 13:04

With increasing tungsten size HF arc starting at low amps is more difficult. Also, larger diameter electrodes are more prone to arc wander as amperages are reduced.

50A is better suited to a 1/16 electrode.

As far as being "Too" large? If you can make it work, I guess it's not too large.. But it will be easier if you have several electrode diameters available for various metal thicknesses.

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-08-2010 04:39

As long as you are willing to do enough grinding to increase the taper length to the extent necessary, and possibly even go to the trouble of a two stage taper if the thing was grossly oversize, I don't see how you could really have an electrode that was too big in diameter.

Now of course there is no good reason to resort to an excessive amount of electrode shaping when you can just buy the right diameter electrode.

Personally I like 1/8" down to about .090" material thickness, and 1/16" thick is doable. Thinner than that and I would drop down to 3/32, 1/16, or .040 depending on current level.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 01-09-2010 18:33

I agree with above. Your wasting tungsten, by oversharpening. It just will not weld as well with it wanting to wander more. It really sux on aluminum too if tungsten and cup size are not matched up to heat...does not hold the arc near as well.

By Superflux (****)

Date 01-09-2010 19:31

Thanks to all for the responses.
What prompted this query was a copper vessel repair I was involved on. After we were done with the copper work (the company had rented a 500 amp machine with HF), the machine was going back to the rental company at the end of shift, and me and another fella had a couple of hours to play with this rig. We only had 3/16" W in it so, we put a long (well polished) taper on and tried it out on a couple of 3" and 4" sch. 40 316 pipe welds. Neither of us could quite say what it was, but the arc characteristics were "different" from the 1/8" dia. we were acustomed to welding with.
Taking the advice given here...Excessive prep time and waste of tungsten would definately discourage one from wanting to use oversized electrodes for other than this one time "recreational use".
BUT! You just never know when a couple of bored spark monkies might come up with something really cool though!

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-09-2010 22:09

My opinion: These guys have given good advice in these threads! They know what they are talking about!

Me personally, am a stickler for using just the right tungsten for the job. Currently I have in my toolbox, tungsten from .020"- 2%, .040"-pure & 2%, 1/16"- pure & 2%, 3/32"-pure & 2%, 1/8"-pure & yellow (1%) (thoriated I think) don't believe I have any 3/16" I'll have to look, I have some nice 5/32"-1%, and get this; some 2%-thoriated X 1/4" for the really big jobs. I'm not sure if I have ever even used any 1/4". (I'm thinking I experimented with it years ago) But I've got it if ever need be.

The reason I don't have .020" pure is because it's just too darn small. I can barely see a point on it when I sharpen it. Since it's so small and low amps. I can get away with using the 2% on aluminum coke cans, or very very thin stainless. It's my guess, that by welding at about 8-25 amps, it's so low that it barely effects the tungsten properties.

Yes, you can grind a large piece down, but you can't grind a small piece up. For example a long narrow taper on 1/8" can equate to however small you want to go, but the rest of the stick requires a certain amount of juice to pass through, so using a large stick with thin materal requires more juice inhancing the likleyhood that you will burn through.

I recommend that everyone who TIG's, experiment with what is available. In your case your just messing around, but your also learning tungsten reactions and properties.

One thing that I just recently learned though is that the alloyed tungsten, thoriated, ceriated, etc. is radioactive! It presents no harm to you as long as it is intact, but I would assume one should use precautions when grinding this type of tungsten. I've been just lolly gaggen around and sharpening tungsten and had no idea I was breathing radoactive dust! It's a good thing I'm old, because If I were to do it over I would wear a dust mask when sharpening.

So there's one for you young studs, don't take anything for granted. Always read the documentation that accompanies your consumables. "YOU JUST NEVER KNOW"

Just my penney's worth. Yall take care.

Steve

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-09-2010 23:05 Edited 01-09-2010 23:13

Hey Metalmaster!

Since your lookin for just the right tungsten for the job...

Please allow me to suggest you don't spend another dime on pure tungsten electrodes.

Lanthanum or Cerium will do everything a Thorium electrode will do and everything a pure tungsten will do.. There is absolutely no advantage to using pure tungsten electrodes for AC aluminum and more disadvantages than I have time to type about.

Frankly, unless you are attempting to make a shallow penetrating wide buildup with aluminum, there is no reason to ball the end of a tungsten. With the alloyed electrodes that are available any square wave transformer or inverter can make good AC aluminum welds with a blunted point on the electrode and produce better control and profiles. (a water cooled torch extends this capability considerably)

BTW only thorium is radioactive.... and the fact is that in the history of medicine.. No thorium tungsten related cancers have ever been doccumented. Now lets also keep in mind tungsten itself is toxic too... so it's always a good idea to keep tungsten dust away from the breathing zone.. Unless your one of those guys who were handed a sharp tungsten by the welding gods and has never had the need to sharpen it :)

With these electrodes (Lanthanum & Cerium) you can sharpen both ends and not worry about getting the wrong electrode mixed up either!!!!!!!!!!

Lanthanum or Cerium will cost maybe $5 more for a box of ten... Well worth it.

Edit: My apologies for drifting slightly off the original topic.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-10-2010 01:02

Lawrence:

I hadn't noticed much drift. Actually I'm not looking for the right tungsten, I've got more than I can use know. Thanks for the suggestion though. Also, I have each size loaded in a collet and body, with either a gas lens or a standard cup. Ready to burn. All I need is something to burn it on.

When I'm tig welding, I let the situation itself determine the shape and size of my tip. I always sharpen, every time. From there I let it do what works best. Yes you can subdue arc wonder by making small adjustments on your tip with the grinding wheel. When I sit down and strike an arc, if it doesn't start immediately, I stop and restart until I get my hi-freq. setting right. And get a good start!

I agree about the wet/dry tig setup. I have both wet tig in my shop, and a dry tig on my truck. The machines on the truck I bought new in 1994. I have welded tons of auminum with it and only replaced the handle once. Still in excellent shape, albeit though, I have heated that chord and handle till it was smoken! Handle on my wet tig never gets hot. I've been using the same leads for twenty years. And welded some heavy metal with it! Take care of your tools, they'll take care of you. And of course I have a habit of not walking, or standing, or setting something on my leads. Traffic zones kills em!

Appreciate the science lesson also.

Please understand I have quite a bit of respect for the people in this forum, otherwise I wouldn't be here. No I don't post much, but, I read alot! Please allow this correction:

My name is Steve, my handle is mtlmster, not Metalmaster. I think that is probably someone else your thinking about.

Take Care
Steve

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-10-2010 02:25

Steve it is!

Good to meet ya.

I just saw mtlmster... and thought must be short for "Metalmaster".. both are good handles

I like your posts... say more

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-10-2010 15:47

Lawrence, and everyone else:

Thank You: I know this is off topic and I'll do better in the future.

To be perfectly honest here, I have been scared to death. I'm brand new to this forum, (or any forum) and have never really had time to get on my computer, and share my thoughts. I probably am a bit defensive; afraid the Big Dogs will come out and Eat Me Up! The older I get, and the more I learn, I realize the less I actually know. HMM!

I see this forum as an oppurtinity too: (1) Stay connected to the Welding Industry; (2) Oppurtinity to unwind through discussion, and release these thoughts going through my mind. (3) Oppurtinity to share my own personal work experience with others in my trade. (4) and the opportunity to hopefully help some of the lesser experienced weldors through my own mistakes, and screw ups!

Welding is the "BEST" Trade in the world! It has been my life, and treated me quite well actually. I hope this forum will help me through personal, or simi personal contact with like minded individuals as yourself, and others in the forum. Also I hope to be inspired to do and learn more!

So far this forum has been an excellent outlet for me, and I hope that in the future I will actually get to meet some of you people.

Again I apoligize for straying off topic. I guess I'm trying to position myself in the community? My son found this Website for me and told me that this would be the best place for me to interact, and he told me I could probably find out anything I wanted to know about welding. "He was right"!

I look forward too meeting each and everyone of you!

Take Care;
Your friend: Steve

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-11-2010 20:21 Edited 01-11-2010 20:25

I like 2% La as a multipurpose tungsten. I haven't used thoriated for several years now.

Seems to carry more current than Ce with less errosion when on DC-. I compared it side to side with 1/8" at about 175 - 200 amps. However when I was comparing I was using La from Diamond Ground Products and Ce from ESAB.... so not a perfect test.

I prefer pure for AC welding for some applications on a convential machine if the current level will be low. On an advanced machine I use 2% La for all AC work.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-13-2010 16:25 Edited 01-13-2010 16:27

Blaster:

I apoligize for not posting earlier. I got caught up in some of the other posts. I was somewhat aware of the many options concerning tungsten types, just didn't really know the difference since all I have ever used is pure or thoriated. Even though I'm not doing much work right now, that is good info to digest.

One thing I'm wondering about; Have you noticed any difference between foreign imported tungsten as compared to U.S.A. tungsten? I noticed you commented on ESAB and Diamond Ground. Those are both U.S. manufactured, right?

One other thing, I noticed on Ebay, this proprietary compound tungsten. Anyone know anything about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Proprietary-Compound-Tungsten-electrode-WX-10PCS1-6X150_W0QQitemZ170409802534QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ad373b26

Hope this link works!

Take Care:
Steve (Edit) I don't hardly beleive anything I read and only beleive half of what I see!

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-14-2010 02:30

Mtlmster, I only use domestic tungsten. I still work from a large stock pile I bought some years ago. Next time I buy some I really hope I won't find the brands I have been using are no longer domestic. I check before buying or ordering anything. As long as at least one is, that is who will get my business.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-14-2010 16:10

Yea me too!

Crap! I just wrote a thread or whatever in reply, and just before posting, I lost it. Oh well concerning the subject I probably should start a new Topic anyway.

Take Care:
Steve

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-14-2010 16:28

Here it is! Hmmmm.

Yea, me too! "Buy American"! I say!

LMPO though, and I really don't understand; but China and Japan have been manufacturing "Steel" much longer than we in the U.S. It seems that we (the U.S.) have taken the original formulas and recipes for Iron, and refined, it and raised the bar to really "high standards" and "high quality". I recall getting a batch of angle iron made in Canada. It welded, cut, and bent alright, but too me, seemed that it was softer and more flexible than the previous, U.S. batch. May have been just that batch, or just me and my own prejudice. We would just order mild steel, just about the cheapest stuff you could buy. Not by choice. I've either used or repaired stee,l manufactured in China and Japan and it seems okay. I do recall the Chinese Steel; splitting after a chop saw cut or a break on the end! If I'm shaping I use hot rolled, and if I'm looking for strengh or for hardening I use "cold rolled". But then normally what I have fabricated in the past was not really that critical of a situation' (Not like Boilers, Serious Structural, etc.), and any steel would suffice.

Also I seem to recall, recently that I read that there are only 2 major steel manufactures un the U.S. and 1 in Canada? Not sure?

I would like to see the specs on U.S. Steel compared to other foreign Steels, just out of curiosity. I know Demascus steel is preferred by most reputable knife makers.
And If anyone knows if there is a difference in foreign tungsten as opposed to domestic tungsten. I don't know anyone who has ever used imported tungsten?

Maybe Joel knows?

A perfect example of refining and improving metals would be to check out the SR-71 Blackbird.....Titanium!!!!! Awsome!!!!!

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/28086-assignment-discovery-black-bird-flies-mach-3-video.htm

Sorry; I think I got off topic. Probably should have started a new Topic? huh.....

Take Care:
Steve

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-14-2010 17:36

Tungsten electrodes are formed via the "Powder Metallurgy" process.. similar to sintering.

There can be vast differences in performance in tungsten electrodes of the same AWS catagory depending on who makes them. Arc quality can vary, arc voltage for a given length can vary, tip degridation, ductility of the electrode, longitudinal splits, and arc starting quality can all be drastically different between various vendors products. And with some vendors quality changes from batch to batch... *(these are the ones you quickly learn to stay away from) Now if your doing semi-auto, machine welding of pipe and tube, or very thin exotics this may make a significant difference... For the average welder it may not.

For Quality... What was once was known as "Bavarian Alloys" makes the best lanthanum electrodes I've ever used.. These babies.. even the .040s could manage over 300 arc starts on an automated run (this includes ATP touches)... the 1/16 electrodes could run as long as 8 continuous hours of arc time without need to resharpen... Nor would the points degrade like other tungstens. We did trials of all available brands. Maybe Stephan can tell us what Bavarian Alloys has been renamed.

Shame on me... I just looked at my box of Weld Craft electrodes and on the bottom of the box it says... fabrique' in China!

Somebody else mentioned electrodes with propriatary mixes... These electrodes are classed by the AWS as EWG and have a grey color code.. They can be literally be doped with any of the rare earth alloys and you will not be told what they are.. Nothing wrong with that as long as the code you are working under does not require an exact proportional breakdown. I've never used an EWG electrode that outperformed Lanthanum or Cerium.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-14-2010 17:52

LLLLOOOOLLLLL! I'm afraid to look! But I think most of my stuff is domestic. You have really done your research on tungsten!

As for me, working for the Army and all, they chose my tungsten and all other materials, and I was never given the option to help determine what to purchase. Heck the first 15 or so years all they furnished me with was pure tungsten. Finally we got a shop foreman who at least had a little bit of open mind, for suggestions. That is when I read up and had him order me some Th.

Shame on me, for not taking enough time in that area to get smarter! It's never too late though! I appreciate your insight. Thanks:

Steve

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 01-14-2010 18:17

mtlmster welcome aboard!!! Keep up with posting, sometimes I initiate conversations with questions that could be considered off the wall or what have you and it always turns into a good learning experience here. I get info here that I might never get on my own, and at a much faster rate!

One thing to consider. Most of your raw tungsten is mined and sold from China, for a long time. Russia is probably the second largest producer. Both do it for prices that just simply cut everyone else out. I myself did not know that until recently. A mine is in the works in Vietnam that is expected to become the largest (a.k.a cheapest) producer of primary tungsten. So even if you can buy tungsten that is made here, the raw materials are coming from out of country. I agree that different brands of tungsten in the same class perform differently, just like everything else. I would expect domestic or European tungsten to be better and more consistent then the Asia stuff.

Best regards
Tommy

By mtlmster (**)

Date 01-14-2010 18:56

Yea. But if I stay on Topic, I'm thinking I might get an extra diamond by my name or something. LLLOOOLLLLL!

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-15-2010 01:25

I have compared Diamond Ground products "Grey" or unspecified "Trimix" to their 2% La.

The 2% La held up way better than the Trimix on DC-.

The Trimix was OK on AC, but I saw no advantage to it over the other alloys.

BTW, I am kind of fond of Zirc for AC use on a conventional machine, unless using very high amperage, in which case I like a 2% La. Don't hear too much about the use of Zirc tungsten.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-15-2010 05:13

I'm with you Blaster.

If it were my own little operation I would prolly use Zirconium for my aluminum work.

But in my current situation it would just be confusing to have multiple types.

I think the AC arc stays on the point of a Zirconium electrode as current decreases better than other electrodes.

By Blaster (***)

Date 01-15-2010 05:27 Edited 01-15-2010 05:30

Exactly... use an alloyed electrode on AC at low current and the arc stays on the blunt end.... until the edges of the blunt end start to errode.

Then the arc can want to walk up onto the side of the electrode, just as it can do if you try sharpening the alloyed tungstens (La or Ce) to a point without the applying a blunt end.

The molten tip of the Zirc keeps the arc where it belongs. While at the same time the electrode can carry a fair bit of current for a given diameter / tip taper.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-15-2010 08:22

I know that Al and myself have been advocating zirconiated W over Pure for some years now in this forum with respect to conventional power sources but then again, one would have to go back some threads to see if they're still listed in our posts. :) :) :)

I do believe they do offer better performance with decreased current when compared to pure as well! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry