Steam Pipe? Help...

Date 01-03-2010 15:01

Ok, I've got some questions about ASME and you guys will have to bare with me please. As some of you may know been working single hand for a mechanical company running chill pipe/hot water pipe. They approached me the other day and asked if I was "scared" of steam pipe? I said why would I be scared? I weld on live gas mains all the time?? Anyhow, he say's steam will find pinholes in a weld. Told him if you welded it correctly you would not have pinholes for steam to find. What I know? I think this will fall under B31.1? Not something I had intended on learning about because of the situations a welder end's up in while performing under this code, although I find myself reading about it on here quite often and learning what I can from all here.

So he say's it's 4" pipe and something about installing a 1000 gallon tank? They are bidding the job. I was wondering what 4" pipe? I'm assuming that this is not run of the mill schedule 40 pipe? I figured it would be more sch 80 or am I wrong with my assumptions? The more I learn about this guy the more I realize he's full of schmidt. Said he was a certified welder and the guys on the job tell me his welds looked like the rocky mountains and if there was a pinhole leak he'd say cover it with spray paint.....I know, YIKES!!! As a norm there will likely be no WPS or anything on this job......don't know how they get away with it? Yet here I am stuck in the middle as usual between making excellent money(if they get the job, scale job) working for another one of "those" companies. Another concern is he stated that "I'll be pipefittin' on that job" because of the hourly rate. I'm thinking this guy knows a shade more about fitting than he does welding and judging by his waist size not a big fan of that little thing called work and more concerned about standing around talking about female genitalia.

My options? Sitting here thinking about it I can roll up after this job, be an unemployed back to my rig....rig welder or I can stay on and at least ensure that the welds are good quality sound welds. The place they found me at earlier this year told me they went through 4 welders before me. Apparently the welds looked like doo doo and one guy they tell me did not want to get dirty??? Or am I being to critical as the "do it properly" guy and I should just shut up, weld it right and go on?

Don't guess things could be easy......that would be, well, to easy! LoL!! Or should I take the "Run Forest" position?! I enjoy the heck out of the welding, even in the tight confined dirty little holes they throw me in I enjoy what I'm doing so this is not a complaining about my job thread. Thought's? I guess this is more a rant than a question based thread. Figure if they do get this job I want to know all I can about the code specific so I can at least do the welding properly but without WPS I guess that's kinda hard to do too? Uphill 6010 root, 7018 out, need a rod oven.

By 803056

Date 01-03-2010 16:56

Piping codes (with a few exceptions) require the same performance qualification test for all piping service classes, i.e., stream, gas, water, etc. The acceptance criteria changes from one piping code to another and there are some "rules" about what can and cannot be done. For the most part, the differences are along the lines of design parameters and affect the engineer more than the welder.

The welder's responsibility is to follow the work instructions, i.e., drawings, WPS, etc... It is not the welder's responsibility to determine what type of fitting should be used, pipe diameter, schedule, etc. That is the engineer's job. The welder should concentrate on making the best weld he can while following the directions provided by the employer.

Sad to say, many employers still leave it to the welder to take on the responsibility of designing the system as well as welding it. Then if it does not work as intended, it is the welder's fault. What the hay? Someone has to be management's whipping boy. Let the beatings begin!

I had one company that complained when the welder they hired fresh out of high school did not weld like a veteran with twenty years of experience. The kid told them that he had some welding in a "Metals Shop" class. The company assigned him to weld up a pipe spool without giving him a WPS (not that he would know what to do with it) or a performance qualification test. They wanted to fire the kid when the pipe spool looked like a water fountain while it was hydrotested.

My suggestion would be stay with the company if the money is good, you enjoy the work, and you can learn from the experience. Do the best job you can, learn all you can, ignore the B.S., and cash the check at the end of the week. When a different job comes along that is at least as good as this, maybe pays a little more, you will be ready to accept the new challenges it offers.

Best regards - Al

By Superflux (****)

Date 01-03-2010 18:37

Shawn,
I used to work off and on for a mechanical contractor doing hospitals and schools. Sometimes with a rig and sometimes single hand. Much of our work was natural gas and saturated steam for heating. I never once saw a print, spec or code. All they ever told me was ..."here's the pipe, fittings, and it goes from here to over there". I used to tell them (here's where it got to be fun!) when and where the welds "needed to be TIG welded". Did I mention, that I also Never took a Weld Test for this outfit! So anyways, it was a great way to improve my TIG welding skills with OJT pay! I would set up a Fab area/shop with my TIG rig and just use this opportunity to practice cup walking on the jackstands. Since these were all "SCALE JOBS" (VA Hospitals, DOT weigh stations, High Schools) they paid really well. I always made sure the Plumbers and laborers did 90% of the installation heavy lifting/grunt work. Not that I'm above all that, but it is easy to convince them to utilize the lower paid employees while I maintained the shop area. As long as I've got welds to make, all was good. The other benefit to doing your own fitting is the ability to plan out and keep the field (mirror) welds as accessible as possible and to your own liking.
Sounds like a Win/Win situation for you as long as you know the check on Friday will cash.
IMHO, these type companies, you are better off being an employee vs. a sub contractor. I figured, no test or prints etc. NO HEADACHES! Enjoy the $$$$

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 01-03-2010 21:39

Thanks for the great advise. I figured it will come down to me knowing what is right and how it should be done correctly and though I am not an engineer and I know for a fact they won't have an engineer I need to have some knowledge. Yep, the paycheck will be nice that's for sure, be the most I have ever made on the hour and want to make sure my welds look worthy of the check. Keep to my simple motto, no leaks, no leaks.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 01-04-2010 00:49

sounds like some dam good experience to me. Wish I was in you're shoes with the projects you have gotten you're hands on, really is some good experience. My dads is a very very good trim Carpenter and i have asked him before like how do you know you can do this or do that when you pull up to a job. He was like some of it is years of experience and some of it is BSSing and acting like you know what you're doing and just figure it out and make it work. i was like sh*t I couldn't believe what he was telling me but I guess he's right you just gotta do it and if it don't work you get canned and go onto the next job. I know he has done alot of reading though in books and onjob training to get where he is and I hope to do the same with the welding.

I say go for it

Superflux I like that you called the welds and got to pratice with the tig, thats a good one

By swsweld (****)

Date 01-04-2010 01:15

Shawn,
Even though the company doesn't abide by the code requirements there should be some degree of code compliance by the management. For instance, the estimator or Project Manager should submit materials that comply with the specifications and contract documentation. So if it calls for sch 80 A106 for condensate and sch 40 A106 seamless for steam and the valves are to be #300 you should receive and install the correct materials. Now that doesn't always happen but the materials are submitted and an engineer will see if they comply and approve them or not. The same system applies for the welding quals. WPS and weld code compliance. You man not see those requirements but they exist and your company is obligated to follow them. That is frustrating for you if you don't get that info and obviously you want to learn and follow the rules, hence the post.

As far as the welding quality is concerned, if the right materials are used and piped in correctly all you SHOULD have to worry with is making sound welds. As important as the welds are the fitting/route is just as important. Search "water hammer" and you will see why. You should find out the PSI and temperature. 1200psi is more dangerous than 15psi but both can kill. Not you, you'll be gone but you don't want to read about it one day...
High pressure steam is very erosive. It's VERY important to get a good root in. No inadequate penetration or very heavy roots to enhance turbulence and erosion.

If you don't do it then who will? Possibly someone without the skill and concern you have. Feel free to ask anything anytime something comes up if you get the work. It is a good opportunity to gain experience. If they keep you busy and pay enough for you, that's a good thing in this job market.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 01-04-2010 02:14

last hospital I worked on as a welder we had a 3" med pressure steam line.
when I arrived on the job there were a couple of pieces tacked up in the jack stands.
The foreman told me to go ahead and weld them out. The pipe was SA106 sch 80
the 90's tacked on were schedule 40. I got ahold of the foreman and told him the problem.
He told me thats what the specs called for. I asked him to show me the specs and of course he
could'nt find them. He told me to make the welds or go home. I tried to explain to him that
the mismatch of the ID'S would create excess turbulance and that the inspector was sure to catch it
His response was #$%%#@ it we'll insulate it before anybody ever see's it. I told him give me something else to do
or I was going to the project manager. He handed me two slip on flanges to make a spool piece. I laughed
and told him I wouldn't weld those either. He told me I would be terminated for insubordination I said
great put it in writing that I was being terminated for refusal to make welds that were not up to code
for ASME B31.1. He sent me home with pay and the next day I was transferred to another job. I
heard thru the grapevine they got another welder who didn't know any better to make the welds.
Even though you don't design or engineer it you can still be brought into a lawsuit if you knowingly
do substandard work. Steam can and has killed!!!!

By 803056

Date 01-04-2010 03:06

You can do anything you want until someone gets hurt or killed. Then the lawyers come out of the woodwork. They sort through the debris, hire the necessary experts to make their case and bang, another contractor bites the dust.

I guess lawyers serve a purpose in our society after all. They put the weak and stupid out of their misery.

Darwin at work.

Best regards - Al

By Sharp Tungsten (**)

Date 01-05-2010 22:50

If your working for a mechanical contractor in a commercial building you can safely bet on two things no inspectors and no code. The chiller and package boiler you are working on probably has less than 200 PSI of pressure hardly what you would call high pressure. Now if were welding on a downcomer or pendant of a header in a super critical boiler I might say your in over head. But more than likely it is a 4 inch sch. 40 pipe which you have probably welded a million of. Have at it and try to pocket some cash.

By swsweld (****)

Date 01-06-2010 02:53

Even if an inspector shows up once in a while it is just for show. Speaking of mechanical piping and commercial buildings. Sorry for the upcoming rant but with the job market so bad it bothers me to see the poor workmanship that goes on in commercial building because there are so few inspections. Case in point; today we finished welding a small run of underground CHW and HW pre insulated pipe for a customer and the CWI? did the inspection on the finals. Welds were bunched up and fairly difficult on the bottom. I didn't expect him to crawl underneath and inspect them but at least bring a mirror and flashlight. He just felt a couple on them on the bottom and said later. I told him that the last on on the left was still very hot. Not even close to ambient temperature as required by code. He wouldn't know if 1/3 of the bottoms were even welded much less acceptable. If there were defects/discontinuities it would most likely be on the bottom.

Anyhoo, I have to bid against these companies that often do horrible work and when the rare inspection occurs, it's a joke. There use to be enough work for all of us; the good,the bad and the ugly. Not anymore. We try to bid jobs that require NDE because that weeds them out to a degree. Some don't read the quality requirements and get the job anyways. We do pick up a fair amount of repair work but that is the crumbs not the main course.

Back to the OP. Agree. Go for it if you get the job. Treat each weld as if it was going to be x-rayed on the steam line.

By ibeweldingsum (***)

Date 01-10-2010 21:29

If it was me I would atleast check the state and local codes for steam line installation. You can find it on the net for all to see. I have found that state codes differ, some have lower tolerances that are considered HIGH pressure. Some states consider 15 psi and above to be high pressure piping and require NBI certs. and insurance to cover the contractor and employees liability. The national boiler codes for the U.S. give stringent guidelines for compliance and very stiff fines for violations, even jail time. The state boiler code inspector or your insurance inspector MUST give an insp. of the work performed to be in compliance with the law. Most inspectors only look at the overall work performed and sign off on it if you are well known to him. There is paperwork to be kept of the material used and the type of filler metal used for each weld also. MTR's are required for your report to the inspection board at years end audit as well. Most all projects I've benn on require the welders to have a stencil no. to put on all the welds he makes so if the weld fails or just isn't up to code they know who to go to. Man!! there is so much more to this than is being let on . Do yourself a favor and do sum research before jumping into something that seems to be to easy. It never is so simple. IMHO you need to cover your a$$ on this one.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 01-11-2010 01:23

I agree 100%. sometimes easy money aint that easy whwn the consequences from a bad installation come
back and bite u in the ass . even if all your welds are perfect x ray quality, if the proper procedures aren't followed
every one invoved will be in trouble

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 01-16-2010 10:32

Good info Matt and thank you. I've been doing a bit of research on the B31 code and reading on here, talking to the inspection company and there is a TON of stuff for that. Found out yesterday the company I was working for(laid off yesterday) did not get that job anyhow. He bid it for $50k and the guy who got it bid it at $30K. Oh well, thanks again for the great info guys!

By ibeweldingsum (***)

Date 01-16-2010 03:16

Here is a chart to help with heat expansion on pipe. http://www.weldbend.com/Technical%20Data/Thermal%20Expansion%20For%20Carbon%20Steel%20Pipe/thermalexpansion.htm