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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Bay Bridge, CA --- China ???
- - By weldstudent (**) Date 01-17-2010 19:28
OK so Ive looked in the forums and attempted to learn what i could about the Bay Bridge in Ca. what i understand is that there have been or will be welders / laborers "imported" from china to do the work. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG.  if i understand this right (hope I'm confused) we are going from a major loss of American jobs and materials because CEOs want to save a buck, to a major loss of American jobs on US soil because some IDIOT thought they had a good idea.

if someone smarter than myself knows what is going on please inform me.

on a side note all WA, ST. gun owners need to check out a proposed ban on "assault weapons". Google SB 6396 or follow this link  http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/pdf/bills/senate%20bills/6396.pdf
Parent - - By JohnJohn (**) Date 01-17-2010 20:12
All the iron is fabricated in China and sent over here, 6500 miles. We got inspectors who go over the material before they unload the ship because so much of it is screwed up. But beware, there are some people that think the Chinese quality is as good as ours, so keep an open mind and decide for yourself.

Welcome to the real world kid, this is how it's gonna be. Learn to speak Spanish and Chinese so you can compete for job in the future. LOL.

JohnJohn
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-17-2010 22:23 Edited 01-18-2010 16:16
No worries, as soon as our workforce is willing to work for a small fraction of its present rate, we will be competitive as manufacturers again.

Our current state is in large part the result of millions of decisions made by Americans each time they choose to put a Chinese made good into their cart.  We send about 1 Billion dollars PER WORK DAY to China just in the form of trade deficit on consumer goods.  US Census Bureau link: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2009 (Scroll down the page, it is pathetic.  The 2009 info is not complete yet - no December info.)

Americans are doing it to themselves through choices to save a few bucks at the store, and by not contacting their legislators and demanding such things as clear bold country of orgin labeling in product catalogues and internet store item pages, that items bought with local, state, or federal tax dollars be of domestic manufacture, or by not contacting American product manufacturers and telling them they have lost or will lose their business as a result of going overseas, etc.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 13:30 Edited 01-18-2010 13:34
I agree Blaster, I look over stuff to see where it's made and sometimes you can't find it. Just got off a government job and alot of the fittings we used(not my choice) we Chinese made, sure did a good job of making sure they labeled the butterfly valves "CHINA" good enough to see from the other end of the building. Kinda chapped my a__ seeing it like that but I had no control over the product or what was bought, just a single hand. I did burn about 150-200lbs of good ol' American made Lincoln welding rod though, it is made in the USA right????
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 16:38
Well Sh_t pipewelder......., as a country it seems we're sliding the knife across our own throat slowly but sure.
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 22:09
now i can't even buy american rod???
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-18-2010 16:43 Edited 01-18-2010 16:46
Here is the latest rosey info from the US Census Bureau:

"U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services Highlights

January 12, 2010

Goods and Services Deficit Increases in November 2009

The Nation’s international trade deficit increased to $36.4 billion in November from $33.2 billion (revised) in October, as imports increased more than exports."

Those numbers are for those single months.

More than a billion dollars per day, and almost 1.7 billion dollars per work day (the majority of which goes to China).
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 18:05
yeah i previously posted  this in responce to read the label to GioVanni
in Brazil who doesn't undferstand why one should support their own country
If I lived in Brazil I would try and buy products made in Brazil to help my countries economy.
I know nothing about the situation in Brazil as far as what they manufacture domestically
or inport from other countries. The United States is a mess because our government has allowed
to much foreign products to be imported that should be made and bought from us manufacturers
In other Words if all we had to buy were fords and chevys and chryslers . The majoer auto makers wouldn't
have need Billion dollar bail outs from our goverment. Thousands of workers wouldn't have lost their jobs
when these plants closed  forcing them onto unemployment, unable to make their house payments
so they get foreclosed flooding the market with repo houses so property values drop  nation wide.The Banks
are losing ton's of money so Construction Loans are harder to get, building slows, pipelines cancelled,
refineries cancelled . No money to finance the jobs the whole country goes to ****!! It's just one big
domino effect. The USA is one of the greatest manufacturing countries in the world. We don't need
to import our, cars , electronics, medical supplies, And don't forget welding Machines I don't remember seeing
to many pipeliners out their running MultiQuip machines  LMAO. So I do my best by buying everything I can american
My vechicles, My tools, My electronics, my clothes etc. Take pride and support the country you live in and
the rest will take care of itself . when the new bridge fails to open on time and schedule the amount of rework
required to make it roadworthy that chinease low ball bid will be higher than if a reputable american company
had done the job here in the USA. Written on my american made hewlett packard computer
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-18-2010 18:38 Edited 01-18-2010 18:44
Joe I can't even believe you said this:

"In other Words if all we had to buy were fords and chevys and chryslers . The majoer auto makers wouldn't
have need Billion dollar bail outs from our goverment. Thousands of workers wouldn't have lost their jobs
when these plants closed  forcing them onto unemployment"

Sounds like something Stalin or Mao or Pelosi would say.

So we should have our freedom to buy the car we want taken away by the government so that GM and Chrysler can have unskilled labor making 85K with benefits better than most congressmen?

If American cars were better people would purchase more of them.... Period..

The Auto manufacturers did not ever ***NEED*** a bailout...  (Nor did the Airlines after 911) They could have made better cars, reduced wages for unskilled labor to a reasonable rate and stayed out of the banking business (GMAC)...  Still we did not need to bail them out... They could have reorganized without our help.. It just would have forced the Unions to deal with their foolish wages and work rules.....  Don't get me wrong.. I love collective bargaining but the UAW went wild between 1975 and 1995 and now the chickens have come home to roost.

Government controls and tarrifs implemented so American can continue to manufacture junk is the wrong way to look at it..   American manufacturing needs to fix itself and the smart players are doing just that...  We can compete in manufacturing on the world stage and employees can still make a living too.. 
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 19:47
nothing wrong with the new american cars I admit pinto,and vegas, and alot of other vechicles produced in the late 70's were junk
but there is nothing wrong with the current american auto being made.  you think that japan and china and the other foreign countries
don't have tarriffs on american imports ???? Try buying a chevy over there. All im saying is buy american and help your own economy. Think about it if every welder in the
united states bought nothing but gloves made in the USA it would be in the billions of dollars going into our economy.  Do you want to weld
with lincoln excaliber or some off the wal;l brand from china , Ive seen plain white 10lb cans say 7018 made in china no spec sht no msds
I wish my union organizers were as skilled as those from the UAW and perhaps a union welder could make a decent living without having
to work 70-80 hrs a week. It wasn't the workers fault that the management of the auto workers designed and promoted crap and mismanaged
there business. Im against government bailouts of anykind. They made there bed lay in it. hell they even mismanaged their bailout money.
Lets take a quick poll how many rig welders out their riggen up Toyotya Tundras or Nissan Titans.
Who's burnen rod with a  made in japan or china welder.
As far as being a communist LMAO. I believe in free enterprise (CAPITALISM) where anyone who works hard enough and smart enough can
earn a decent living. Auto worikers makin 85K im  fn jealous but i don't resent them for it.
So next time you get in your little ratmobile thank god you still have a job that has not been outsourced to china , india, mexico.
open your eyes or you will wake up poor and  unemployed or working for min wage to compete with the chinease who work for nothing.
oh by the way i think we should limit the amount of steel being imported into this country to. Imagine that american infrastructure being built with
american material or i suppose that wouldn't help the economy either .
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 01-19-2010 00:06
"It just would have forced the Unions to deal with their foolish wages and work rules.....  Don't get me wrong.. I love collective bargaining but the UAW went wild between 1975 and 1995 and now the chickens have come home to roost."

I'll disagree with that. I think people forget that EVERY, EVERY perk, EVERY Bonus, EVERY salary a union member ever got in detroit auto was signed off by management. Sure there was some hardball negotiations on both sides, but poor Lee Iacoca wasn't held hostage by the union boss until even the janitor got 85K a year (which is largely a myth)

What happened is that when times were good (and they were good when american cars had no real competitions, health care and retirement costs were low) management had no problem giving good pay, benefits and all for jobs. Everything was gravy so there was plenty to pass around (sure beats the days when the top guys would just keep it all). However, when competition became fierce and even superior (arguably in quality and especially predicting market demands).  All the purse strings got real tight. Having grown up in southeast  michigan and having a plethora of family and friends go through detroit auto as workers.  I've seen the product of both the good times and the bad times (unemployement almost 30% in detroit right now).

The unions didn't design crappy cars, the unions didn't voluntarily cede the small (less profitable) car market to the Japanese, the unions didn't wrongfully predict high demand for SUV's and while UAW workers did (past tense) get good benefits. someone should of thought out what would happen to the high legacy cost of a large labor pool in retirement. however a lot of those funds have long since been raided and benefits were cut ages ago.

the unions are a part of the puzzle but they didn't hijack American automobile manufacturers and decide to make several decades worth of poor strategic decisions. Labor prices in the modern auto plant aren't  out of line with the rest of the manufacturing sector. Culture wise, it was hard for the unions to give up any of the perks they had gained over the years, but high labor costs aren't what's preventing detroit auto from doing well now. Why we continously flog unions for management follies I don't know.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-19-2010 05:29
Good point Joel.. Flog them both.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-19-2010 14:15
"someone should of thought out what would happen to the high legacy cost of a large labor pool in retirement."

Wouldn't this also be a fundemental responsibility of a Union Management concerned with the "LONG TERM" welfare of their membership? Is the primary argument here that Union Management was too stupid/naive to see the outcome of it all and were taken advantage of by greedy Company Management?
You don't believe that there is at least some element of union 'grab it while you can' mentality which makes its meberhsip feel good aobu themselves and helps get Union leadership re-elected as opposed to a responsible cooperation relationship with a company?
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 01-19-2010 18:13
both are responsible, but the benefits, pay and all that got cut back long ago in detroit auto.  they were paid well when the companies were doing well, but they got hit just as hard as everyone else.

I just think people focus too much on a small percentage of the problem (union members getting paid well) and forget that they didn't make a single strategic decision and everything was signed off by top management.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-19-2010 00:31
If the contractor was installing fittings and valves not made in the US and this was a DOD or COE job you need to contact the contract compliance person at the facility you were working. This person, name address and contact telephone number is located in the contract documents. These are public documents and will be available at the facility. Foreign and especially China anything is frowned on.
That said there are some pieces that are only available from China. A lot of the low pressure 150 Series stuff simply cannot be sourced from the US. And some of it comes from countries that make the China brand look peachy.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-19-2010 01:32
Kahunna that what all of the stuff was, 150. I did see something that said it was made in the USA and something about approved for government jobs but can't remember what it was, box of 90's or something but not for sure. That job was good to get me through the winter and make decent money but fitting the pipe and welding the pipe and making $14 and hour less than the sprinkler guys just makes me glad to be off that job.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-19-2010 02:45
BigK,
  I have a very high level of respect when I ask this question.

Why can the items in question not be sourced from the USA?

jrw159
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-19-2010 14:25
They are not manufactured here.
Was trying to buy a 16 inch 150 check valve. Working through three supply houses could not find one. Was told by distributor these were not available domestic.
If they are available they cannot be found by the suppliers I deal with and the company I am working for has accounts with.
And if a supplier tells me they have domestic materials I would have to look very carefully. Is it domestic produced or assembled?
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-19-2010 14:37
BigK,
  I see, it is not so much that it can't be made here as it is that it just isn't made here.

jrw159
Parent - - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 01-18-2010 18:32
Amen Blaster!  No better time then now to get this sort of message across to the goverment officials making these sorts of decisions.  Owing to the fact that a LARGE PORTION of taxpaying AMERICANS are highly peeved about the leadership in this country, these guys/gals are beginning to wake up to the fact we as a country are mad as hell and not going to take any more.  These guys are beginning to buckle to the pressure.  A significant example of this buckling most recently was the decision of our puke of a governor here in Colorado.  After making a loosing gamble with the OIL and GAS industry here and effectively destroying our economy in nine months along with a whole host of bonehead tax increases and utterly stupid legislation, he has decided to not to continue his bid for re-election. Thank God!  Public pressure works again!
RE: Spending Habits: With little more than just keeping the thought of "Targeting my purchase dollars to direct benefit of fellow Americans" and acting on as you can without extreme hardship, you are making a difference!  Don't think so?  Just ask the manager of your local weld supply how sales of his CHINESE MADE products are doing in comparison to sales of these items two years ago.  You will not be surprised when you hear that by and large sales of these items are way off.  Why?  Because people like yourselves who have a backbone and the ability to make our country a better place with your direct efforts are not purchasing these Chinese made items with the same frequency as before.  When you ask the same manager a like question concerning AMERICAN MADE GOODS.  You will get a decidedly different answer. Hmmm...............?
By and large for the welding crowd, MADE IN USA still means something and that something is worth paying for.  For more on this take a good read at the advertising of our industry equipment and consumable suppliers, there is a common thread mixed in all the wordage that expresses an "increased consumer demand for higher quality" and that "higher quality" does not come from China!  The "consumers" that they are talking about are you guys.  You guys are demanding better from them and they are in fact listening and acting accordingly.  Last year our local weld supply was pushing some Chinese made 7018 for months on end.  Stuff was crap, but as it turns out they had a good profit in it.  Only problem was real welders would not buy it.  In fact, most refused the free samples offered to them.  You guys wouldn't have it! This year you cannot find a single stick of it anywhere in their store. Go figure!
So keep up the good work!  Even a small reduction in your dollars going to China adds up to a sizeable amount when large numbers of people do it.  We will win this deal in the end with the shear power of the most sensitive set of nerves in a man's body................the ones that direct his hand to his wallet.  Man our country would so much better off if just welders ran the government!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 18:46
Carhartt, Redwing, Bulwark, just to name a few, gone to Honduras, China and Mexico.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 18:59
jrw159,
You forgot to mention my favorite...LEVIs. Not made in SanFran any longer, and I don't think they hold up as well either. The jean material wears out way too fast these days. I used to buy the darkest, stiffest pair of jeans and could wear them for years before they wore out. Nowadays you only find them washed, and already wore out before you buy them...LOL
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 19:51
Indeed! They sure are not what they used to be. :-(

jrw159
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-18-2010 22:43 Edited 01-18-2010 22:47
For the record, I have no problem with foreign trade.... but it has to go BOTH WAYS, as the word "trade" implies.

In fact I may buy a very nice laser range finder made by Leica.  It is made in Spain.  Spain is a very even trade partner with the US.... we buy their products and they buy ours in equal numbers.

Now China on the other hand enjoys about a 5:1 trade differential with the US.... no way I could buy a Nikon or most other range finders with that in mind.

And by the way, there is not an American made range finder available that I can find.  Even Leupold is imported.  So if you must buy non-US or have a good reason not to, I don't see anything wrong with buying items from a country with who we either enjoy a trade surplus or with who we conduct even trade.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 23:07
now i have a mission, find an american made range finder lol
taylormade or titlest ??? I hate rain outs but love the rain
very bored today
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 23:11
Do you have a harder task lol.  go to this link and you will find your made in the usa rangefinder
www.madeinusawarehouse.com/40001.html  Next
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-18-2010 23:11 Edited 01-18-2010 23:14
OK I have not called and pinned them down about the claim (they are closed) but here is a likely candidate for you.

http://www.madeinusawarehouse.com/40001.html

jrw159

PS> Too slow Joe. LOL :-)

EDIT: I guess not Joe, we posted at the same time. Too funny. I guess I win though my link works. LOL
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 01-18-2010 23:26
Thanks!  However I need one that is rated for at least 1,000 yards.  1,200 would be even better.  Plan on getting a 338 Lapua Mag.
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-18-2010 23:43
I forgot about the hunting sector. lmao  me and my buddies use em on the golf course lol
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-19-2010 00:21
isn't the lapua made in finland lmao
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 01-19-2010 00:41
Haha. Good one. ; )

338 Lapua is just a cartridge designation. 

You can certainly buy domestic ammo in that chambering, or load it your self (which I would do).  There are plenty of US rifles made in that for it.. McMillan, Barrett, Surgeon, Armalite, Accuracy International, and this year Savage and Les Baer.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-19-2010 09:13
Barrett has one or two, and there made in Tennessee! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 01-19-2010 15:09
Thanks!  I will look into that outfit.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Bay Bridge, CA --- China ???

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