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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Newb question
- - By xdguy Date 01-21-2010 03:01
Ok, I've never welded before, but I wanted a driveway gate and more importantly, an excuese to buy a welder.  Long story short, this is what I came up with.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with my accomplishment, but it occurred to me that I may have made a mistake.  I made solid welds around all of the frame joints, but I didn't make solid welds around where the pickets attach to the frame.  My concern is not so much that the pickets aren't attached well enough(I welded them pretty good).  My concern is that the gate will rust behind the pickets. 

My question is....should I have made solid welds where the pickets meet the frame, or am I ok just spot welding them on really good?  

Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-21-2010 03:14
How bad it will rust depends a lot on the climate where You live. From a rust standpoint, You would have been better off if everything was welded 100%, but that adds a lot of work.
Parent - By xdguy Date 01-21-2010 03:19
I'm in TX, so it could definitely be worse.  I'm sure it would be years before it rusted apart, but I worry about it looking rusty.     
Parent - - By Tyler1970 (***) Date 01-21-2010 03:17
Put a good coat of paint on it. And it wont rust out over night. lol
Looks to me it will be there for a while.
Nice job
Parent - - By xdguy Date 01-21-2010 03:22
Thanks! 

It's got a coat of primer and two coats of paint, but there's no paint between the pickets and the frame which is the area I worry about.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid.  It is just a gate after all.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-21-2010 03:35
Try to seal up the lap joints with paint. For a really first class paint job You need to sandblast to white finish and get the first primer on immediatly, no hand prints. A high zink solids primer works best as it gives some galvanic protection. Then proper finish coats. This is about as much work as building the project in the first place, few go to the extremes.
Parent - - By xdguy Date 01-21-2010 03:39
Yaah, by the time I finished, I was finished.  I did clean it really good and used a degreaser, but no sand blasting.  I've already told the wife that when it needs it, it's going to the powdercoater for a proper finish.  I just hope it's later rather than sooner.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-21-2010 03:58
Not all powder coating is the same. Some use proper preparation and a high zink primer layer and hold up well. A poor powder coat job doesn't hold up as well as paint.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 12:29
xdguy,
   Very nice looking gate!!! Well done. As mentioned complete welds would have been the way to go. You mention the possibility of powder coating at a later date, when that date comes you can have it sand blasted and add the welds or buff the areas needed with a wire wheel, add the welds and then sandblast for powder coat.

jrw159
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 01-21-2010 12:37
xdguy
Welcome to the Forum
The gate looks good
Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-21-2010 18:43
Looks like you did a fine job.....it would have cost you some $$ to have someone else do it.   Not welding all the way round is not so bad a deal and lots of ornamental work gets done the same way for better or worse.      Just make sure you have a good coat of paint at the exposed areas and I am sure the gate will last you a long time before you need any maintenance. 
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 01-22-2010 01:05
"seal weld" would have helped to keep the rain and water from getting between the pickets and the main members, but in the long run you'll be fine.
Parent - - By xdguy Date 01-22-2010 01:41
Thanks for all your replies.  I'm feeling much better about it now. 

What is seal weld?

Also, would sealing all the joints with a black urethane do the trick?
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 01-22-2010 12:33
it's considered a non-structural weld that litterally just seals the connection so that water can't get in somewhere and rust.

We do it all the time on hot dipped galvanized parts becasue the galv is not viscuos enough to get into tight crevises, so instead we "seal weld" the areas so that it won't be a problem later. This is very common and the welds are as small as you can make them.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 01-22-2010 13:11
xdguy
AWS A3.0, Standard Welding
Terms and Definitions, defines a seal weld as: “Any weld
designed primarily to provide a specific degree of tightness
against leakage.” The purpose of a seal weld may
be to contain a fluid – either gaseous or liquid. In the
mechanical and structural fields, seal welds are used most
often not to prevent leakage out of a container, but to prevent
entry of a fluid into a space where some type of
harmful behavior, often corrosion, is expected to occur. In
these fields, seal welds are frequently used to preclude
moisture and oxygen-laden air and water from entering
that cavity.
Seal welds may be specified on parts to be galvanized to
prohibit pickling acids and/or liquid zinc from entering into a
specific region. For architecturally exposed steel that is to
be painted, seal welds may be specified to prevent unsightly
rust bleeding. Seal welds may be required for some
applications where the sealed joint is more conducive to
cleanup than an exposed joint would be. Food processing
facilities are one such example.
The characteristic common to all of the aforementioned
examples of seal welds is as follows: none of them are
placed for traditional strength-related reasons, and for this
reason, caution should be exhibited when seal welds are
specified. In some cases, the application of a seal weld
may result in a conflict of code requirements. In others,
the seal weld may perform structural functions that were
unintended, resulting in undesirable load paths. Seal
welds may affect inspection practices, in particular, the
interpretation of ultrasonic inspection results. Finally, seal
welds may be treated in a casual manner by those
responsible for making them, resulting in weld quality
problems.
So keep the cracks painted.
Again Welcome to the Forum
Marshall
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-23-2010 04:49
I'll weld around my balusters completely. What you have to remember is when you weld just opposite sides and paint the paint may or may not seal the slight gap between the baluster and the gate frame. Condensation, rain will get in this slight gap and within days or weeks you will see rust streaks. You would think powder coating would take care of this "slight" problem. However, due to the magnetic fields in the tight corners, the non-welded area where the baluster meets the frame, the powder will have a hard time sticking to these area's. The end result, moisture get's in and rust streaks come out. I have seen this first hand and have a VERY experienced powder coater who enlightened me about the problems with getting into tight corners. Think he compared it to the two magnets, both North poles pushing away from each other, said because of the magnetic/electrical field the powder does not adhere well.

So, in short, all of my handrail, gates are welded 360 degree's on all balusters, gives that area so the powder coat can stick effectively. Actually, all seams and open areas like that, under the cap rail, lambs tongues and so on get welded fully as I do not wish to see rust streaks on new handrail or gates and I'm sure my clients don't either. A bit more time consuming. Nice work on the gate though, looks real good!!
Parent - - By xdguy Date 01-26-2010 04:57
yep, I predict I will have some rust showing up if I don't seal up the joints.  I am going to use black silicone around all the joints to try to prevent this.  I figure it can't hurt.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-27-2010 03:12
The silicone might give problems when You have to re paint. You might be better off using a paintable caulk.
Parent - - By Ringo (***) Date 01-22-2010 15:52
Slick looking gate.Where did you get those spear-looking tips? I'm going to build one this spring.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-23-2010 04:50
Ringo, go to www.kingmetals.com

Get everything I need for client builds and home projects through them. I think they are the largest supplier of ornamental metal works in the country. At least they are the only one's I've heard of.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-23-2010 17:10 Edited 01-28-2010 13:57
Cumminsguy and Ringo,

There are several others, but, for price, service, items in stock, three warehouses across the country to expedite delivery, they (King Metals) are ALMOST the only one I use, unless I need something really special.

Nice looking gate for a new welder there xd.

Edit:  BTW, we do lots of railings and gates per year, we seal weld all pickets.  Used to only weld two sides.  That saves time and is plenty strong and lets the moisture, which WILL collect from condensation, weep out.  BUT, customers got upset at the rusty spots showing up on their railings.  So, we started welding them all the way around.  Doesn't happen often, but, it will allow the moisture to acculmulate to the point that when we get winter freezes, and we get lots of teen and lower temps here in the winter, the moisture in the pickets freezes and rounds out the square tube and even splits the seams.  BUT, since it only happens to 1 in about 50 and takes about 5 years to gather enough moisture and is off warranty, I give the customer what they want for looks. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Ringo (***) Date 01-27-2010 11:12
I have used King in the past.They sent me a nice catalog last year.
Parent - By Ringo (***) Date 01-26-2010 12:35
Right on.Thanks alot.
Parent - By xdguy Date 01-26-2010 05:04
I actually got the iron and the phineals from a local supplier because they were closer to my home and a little cheaper.  I bought the hinges, star, rings and opener at King Architectural metals.   King has anything and everything you could possibly want metal related and they are extremely helpful.  I can highly recommend them.   I am lucky enough to have King Metals within a 30 minute drive from my house.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Newb question

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