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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Using Weight to Flatten a doubler plate.
- - By eekpod (****) Date 02-19-2010 21:55
OK so you know how shops use c-clamps or weights to hold material in place for welding?

Where does it say you can't use that method to flatten out a plate to be able to install a stitch fillet weld?

Or to put it another way, when is the force pushing down to keep it flat to much? Granted I understand that the fillet weld may have residual stress in it once the weight is removed, but is there anywhere in the code that says you can't or shouldn't do that?

I have never come across this before but I have an issue brewing for next week and I want to do my homework over this weekend (of course I forgot my code book at work)

D1.1 Structural Building
Chris
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-19-2010 22:54
What is a stitch fillet weld?

You have to help me here. I'm so stupid with these technical terms that if I cannot find it in AWS A3.0 Terms and Definitions, I simply do not know what you are talking about. ;)

Best regards - Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 00:08 Edited 02-20-2010 00:11
BWWWWAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAHHHAAHHAAHHAAHHAAHH!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :)

Al! You definitely have a propensity (Not in A 3.0 either ;) ) to make me at the very least, laugh as hard as I possibly can with some of your comments and observations, especially so much so in the past few days (Including the pic with the rebar bending which was priceless! ;) ) that I am starting to feel much better today from my own self-imposed down in the dumps like attitude I've been experiencing lately, and this is mainly because of the untimely death of one my very best childhood friends to lung cancer which is brutal to watch & listen someone you know go through it, especially someone whom you care so much about...

You have managed to cheer me up without even trying to do so, and I am grateful for that Al!!! :) :) :) Thank You my friend!!! ;) Do you you think he's talking about an intermittent fillet weld of some sort??? ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 02-20-2010 13:48
Al

GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!! 

Joe Kane
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 22:59
There's no humor in old age Joe?

Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 23:36
Are you taking the "Benefiber" Joe??? Or is that not good for your blood sugar... C'mon buddy Lighten up a bit!!! :) :) ;)

Respectfully - Really Joe! ;)
Henry :) :) :)
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-22-2010 23:29
Al,
suppose an oil refinery tower that arrives to the job site split into two pieces due to transportation limitations. The tower is 150 feet tall and 10 feet diameter. The two pieces could be joined and welded on the ground, but in this case my explanation on what "stitch welding" consist of would be more complicated. So, let's assume that due to lifting equipment limitations the tower has to be erected in two steps: first, erect the 80 feet tall lower piece, and afterwards the 70 feet tall upper piece.
Let's suppose that the two pieces have already been erected, their plumbness checked, the clearance between welding ends is OK (buttering has been done where necessary) and everything is ready to start welding. In my personal experience, welding at 80 feet heigth is better carried out using the good old coverd (or stick) electrode method than MIG, but this isn't that important for what I'm going to explain.  
OK, welding begins. The plate thickness is 1/2 inch so the welding ends have a V shape. Two welders, one at the 12 o'clock position and the other one at the 6 o'clock position WORKING AT THE SAME TIME, apply a weld, say, one foot long. After they've cooled down, the welders move to the 3 o'clock and the 9 o'clock position, and working at the same time apply two welds one foot long. After they've cooled down, the welders move again, one at the 1:30 and the other one to the 7:30 position and again, they apply a weld one foot long, working at the same time. Now they move to the 4:30 and 10:30 positions and etc. etc. etc.
This job goes on until the first pass is completed. As welding was in progress, the tower plumbness was continuosly checked and found OK.
This welding technique, or method, or procedure, is called "stich welding". Why was it used? To prevent the two pieces of the tower to go off plumbness and straightness. Where did I learn the expression from? From an old Marmaduke Surfaceblow story that appeared on POWER magazine some 40 years ago. Marmaduke used the stitch welding technique to weld a 140 inches diameter flange to the penstock of a hydraulic power plant. And who's Marmaduke Surfaceblow? He's the second greatest engineer human kind has ever produced, second only to Leonardo da Vinci. So, if he called that method "stitch welding", IT IS stitch welding, no matter what AWS and IIW may say.   
Actually, Marmaduke Surfaceblow never existed, he was a fictional character created by Stephen Michael Elonka (whom I had the honor to meet back in 1977), whose stories were published on POWER magazine until 1983, when he passed away. Marmaduke was a fictional character but his stories were not.
They were actual puzzling and intrincate engineering problems that were solved in an incredible simple manner. The stories were based on real case histories that Steve received from readers all around the world. I myself have contributed to three Marmaduke stories (a demineralized water whose silica content was too high, a natural gas compressing station that was too noisy and a stainless steel weld that insisted in showing cracks at X ray examination).
I consider those three Marmaduke Surfaceblow stories as my best contributions to the engineering profession, so proud I'm of them.
Giovanni S. Crisi
PS. By the way, the oil refinery tower I was speaking of, is not fictional. That's how we welded the crude oil distillation tower of the Lujan de Cuyo refinery in Argentina.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 02-23-2010 03:24
Hello Giovanni, not to detract from the meaning or description that you have described, I have heard that method described as "back-step welding". To me, it follows the same logic used when torqueing heads on an engine, however, in this case, it allows for an even and consistent method for dealing with weld shrinkage and stresses. Enjoyed your story immensely and definitely followed it's intent. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-23-2010 23:00
Allan,
No, the method I described, or at least tried to describe (English is not my mother language), is not the backstep welding.
I've got a drawing from Lincoln that shows clearly what backstep welding is and would like to attach it to a post, but I don't know how it is done.
If you explain it to me, I'll attach the drawing and you'll see.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-19-2010 23:45 Edited 02-19-2010 23:48
Answer to eekpod.
In no place it's written that you can't use c clamps (also called strongbacks) or weights to hold material in place. As a matter of fact, I dedicate a whole of my welding lessons at Mackenzie's Engineering School to that procedure to prevent warping during welding.
Answer to Al.
Suppose you're going to weld two pieces of, say, 8 inches diameter pipe. The pipefitter has perfectly aligned the pipe ends. Then, the welder applies, say, four tack welds to keep the two ends in place during welding. Those are called "stitch welds" by some.
In eekpod's case, as he's talking about fillet welds, I guess the stitch welds he mentions are the tack welds that keep, say, an angle iron or flat bar welded to a plate. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
PS. Here in Brazil only the pipefitter can put his hands on pipe and only the welder can weld. Ortherwise, the Union would make a big confusion.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-20-2010 02:29
Al,
Somehow I think your trying to tell me that I have improperly named the term of a staggared fillet weld.  Now bear w/ and and give me a little slack here so I can completly hang myself, its friday night at home after a few drinks and I dont have my 3.0 here. :)
oh.. wait intermittent and staggared.. is that the technical term.  I know this one its on the tip of my tongue... oh never mind.

For the rest of us a 5/16" fillet weld, 2" long on 12" centers equally spaced across from each other (intermittent).

But my original concern is not the length or placement of the welds, or whether they are continous or intermittent.. My question is where does it say I can't restrain a plate or member down via a clamp or weight to hold the pieces togther to allow the fillet weld to be installed and then after cooling remove the weight or clamps and the weld will now hold them together instead of the weight or clamp.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 12:12 Edited 02-20-2010 22:59
Just having a little fun at your expense my friend. Henry got the joke and I am glad to be able to bring a little laughter to his day or anyone else that would like to join in on the frivolity.

Clamps, come-alongs, chain falls, port-a-powers, even tack welds that are slammed with a sledge while they are still hot are fair game when fitting up members for welding.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By JohnJohn (**) Date 02-20-2010 15:46
"Hot Tacking", now thats Ironworker fit-up at it's best!
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-20-2010 14:20
eekpod,
I'll repeat what I've said on my posting above. In no place it's written that you can't use c clamps (also called stronbacks), weights  and other means, as Al  mentioned, to keep the two pieces in place while you're welding them to prevent warpage (also called distortion).
In fact, one of my lessons on welding at Mackenzie Engineering School is dedicated to teach my students that technique. I've got some 20 pages showing different ways of using the technique, that have been published by the Brazilian Foundation of Welding Technology.
The pages are in printed format, not electronic, but I can send them to you by priority air mail if you let me know your address. It'll take 6 - 8 days for the letter to reach you. You can use the Private Message section of this Forum to inform me your address. I'll be happy to be of service to you and help you solve your problem.
Could I scan the pages and send them to you by e-mail? Yes, I could if I had a scanner at home, which I havn't.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-20-2010 15:09
I alwasy thought that a "strongback"  was something like this:
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-20-2010 16:00
That's exactly a strongback. It's tackwelded on only one side, to be easily removed.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 02-21-2010 00:28
A backing nut and a bull pin. Weld the backing nut to the doubler in about 4-5 inches. Insert the bull into the nut hole with the bull pin on the base plate.  Smite the bull pin until the doubler goes flat.  Tack the doubler to the base place. Break off the backing nut and grind the tack weld. As far as I know there is no limit to how hard you can smite it to make it go flat unless you start distorting the base or ch!t goes flying.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 02-23-2010 23:05
never seen it attached to that side.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-23-2010 23:08
Me neither... I just googled  "strongback"   It was on the TWI website.

Just wanted a picture
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 02-23-2010 23:10
Suppose it could be benificial
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-23-2010 23:29
More like a "strongfront"
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 02-24-2010 01:51
right.
Parent - - By gndchuck (**) Date 02-20-2010 15:11
Giovanni,
I've got some info on distortion of how to prevent it in electronic form.  I'm on vacation right now and not due home for a few more days.  Have to check on my external hard drive to find.  When I do, I'll post on here for everyone.

Charles
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-20-2010 16:00
ok, here's a little more info on this subject.

Suppose a 40' long plate 2" thick has to get welded to the outside of a w shape flange to act as a doubler plate.  Now suppose that 40' plate isn't exactly flat the entire length, and during fabrication the shop had to either clamp it down or use some weight to push it down against the flange to close any gaps that were there previously.

So if there was lets say a 1/2" gap over a length of 4' and they put some weight on it to close the gap to zero and install the intermittent fillet weld, once the weight is removed there is no gap anymore.  But is there any residual stress in the fillet from the plate wanting to lift itself back up off the flange? I don't know, probably but is it significant?  This is the scenerio I am asking about. 

Is there anywhere where is says that can't be done?  I know its not a great situation, but pieces and parts have to be coercered into place everyday.
Parent - - By Duke (***) Date 02-20-2010 16:50
It is encouraged... look at D1.1  5.22.6
As an inspector, I am not a huge fan of hot tacking...
As a welder, I used it often
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 02-20-2010 17:14
maybe a little rosebud help with the clamps ?
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-22-2010 11:52
OK I'm back at work.

Right, 22.6 Alignment Methods-Members to be welded shall be brought into correct alignment and held in position by bolts, clamps, wedges, guylines, struts, and other suitable devices, or by tack welds until welding has been completed.

Then in AISC Standard for Structural Steel BUildings Section M Fabrication, Erection and QC it says in M2.1 "Fabrication-Cambering, Curving and Straightening- Local application of heat or mechanical means is permitted to be used to introduce or correct camber, curvature and straightness."

I don't see where it says someone can't use "weight" to mechanically flatten out a plate in order for it to be held in place so that it can be welded.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 02-22-2010 18:01
To me, "other suitable devices" means anything available that can be used to achieve the desired results.
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 02-23-2010 02:38
Once a helper was told to stand on a plate to hold it down. This was a while back. He had taps (little metal tabs that some used to put on the heels of shoes) on his shoes. While making the tack, the welder just moved over a little bit and tacked the tap to the plate. Poor hand had a hard time walking away.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-23-2010 15:55
He must have skated on the steel plate rather than walked. Steel on steel is like walking on grease.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-23-2010 17:23
Gentlemen;

This is just one more case where the use of proper terminology would clarify the situation. The use of slang that differs from one section of the country to another, one country to another, and in some cases from one company to another located across the street can make communications difficult at best and in some case can result in catastrophic accidents.

This seems to be case in this thread. Let us take a look at the discussion so far. The post initially used the phrase “stitch weld.” The slight “jab” on my part simply stated I could not find the term “stitch weld” in my AWS 3.0, so I did not understand his question or comment. That was an exaggeration because “stitch weld” is included in AWS A3.0 as a nonstandard term for “intermittent weld.”

Then the thread takes a few twists and turns when the conversation again talks about stitch welding and then backstep welding pops up as means of controlling distortion. I believe many of us believe we know what a “stitch weld” is. The proper term, intermittent weld, is known to most of us as well. However I have heard the term used to describe a series of small tack welds and I have heard it used to describe intermittent groove welds and intermittent fillet welds that were intended to transmit the design loads. In the case of the tall vessel, were the “stitch welds” temporary tack welds or were they actually segments of the final weld that was part of a welding sequence used equalize and uniformly distribute the residual stresses to maintain alignment. I believe the description was adequate to convey the later was the case. However, my point still stands, because the term “stitch weld” was used in the context of erecting the vessel, another individual questioned whether the welders were using the backstep technique. 

It was a reasonable question. Clarification of the welding sequence is being sought. Would the question have to be asked if standard AWS terminology was? I cannot answer. The use of nonstandard terminology can cause confusion because we are never sure we are interpreting the words or terms we read properly.

We recently had an explosion that killed six workers that were “purging” a natural gas line feeding the boilers in a power plant under construction. I can only wonder if some “slang” term used by one of the workers was misinterpreted and contributed to the explosion. It is a reasonable question considering there were members in that crew from Canada, Louisiana, as well as New England. Even the word “purging” is suspect considering it was used by a reporter that had no idea of what “purging” means. It was a word he or she overheard and it could have easily been the wrong use of the term. The question remains, “What were the workers doing at the time of the accident?”

I have worked in the field many years in many parts of this country. I know how trades people love to make up names and terms for common day items or event. Some of the terms are ones that many of us would not use in mixed company. There times they are used with a wink of the eye to intentionally confuse the newcomer to the group.

Several years ago I was recruited to teach welding fundamentals for a major aircraft engine manufacturer. Part of the classroom lecture covered common welding processes, including gas tungsten arc welding. One of the client’s engineers made it his mission to correct my use of terminology. He informed me that they did no gas tungsten arc welding at their facility. They only used “heliarc welding” and that his welders were “heliarc welders” and they did not use the gas tungsten arc welding process. A couple of days later he stopped by the classroom to tell me they did not make auotgenous welds, but they did make “dry pass welds”.

It was interesting that the client had published their own standard addressing welding and brazing terms and definitions. As a matter of point, each welder in the course was provided with a copy of the standard. The standard stated that the terms and definitions were the same as AWS A3.0 and included some that were unique to their industry. I told the engineer I would change my curriculum to include the words “heliarc” and “dry pass welding” if he could find them in the company’s standard as standard terminology.
He could not find either term, but he did find autogenous weld and gas tungsten arc welding in the standard.  He never visited the classroom again.

Why perpetuate incorrect or nonstandard terminology? It only leads to confusion under the best of circumstances unless the goal is to make the newcomer feel inadequate. It is so much easier to communicate effectively when standard terminology is used. It is an easy means to mitigate the opportunities for miscommunication.

I would rather like to think that we espouse the use of the proper terminology so that when someone comes to us for an answer to a problem we promote the use of proper terminology to minimize the possibility of miscommunication. I believe this is more important than ever considering we have regular contributors from around the world. A recognized “welders” language is a very valuable asset that can make communication more effective. 

Can you imagine lying on the operating table and overhearing your surgeon say to the attending nurse, “Nurse, can you move that do-hickey to the left a little while I remove the, what do you call it, you know the little squishy thing?”

Best regards - Al
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 02-23-2010 17:40
Al
I could not agree more. And I am not sure they knew what Back Step sequence was either.
But Thank You
Marshall
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-23-2010 18:15
"Weemawrkable!!! ;) ;) ;)"

Al, remember the kid in the little rascals when he was going after the fish in the fish tank, and kept sayi ng "Weemawrkable ;) ;) ;)!!! For some reason or another, this thread sort of reminds me of that scene! ;)

Outstanding observation as usual Al! ;) Those reasons as well as others are really the basis as to why the AWS, API, ASME, EN, ISO and the IIW are trying to come up with some universal standards, and all the reason as to why there has been so much difficulty in completing the tasks at hand. ;) It's sort of like when SI units were first introduced in the US to become the new standard in measurement which turned uot to be quite a show in itself, and only until some folks were convinced that they could be more accurate and make money because of it, did they start to play along as the amount of global customer base increased... How ironic! :(

Anywho, I completely agree with your message! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-24-2010 18:14
Thanks for the vote of confidence gentlemen.

This is the type of response I am leery of writing because I do not want anyone to be offended thinking that I am singling him or her out of the crowd. At the same time, I do not want confusion to reign because we are not communicating effectively.

The beauty of any language are the nuances, but at the same time being technically correct is important to ensure efficient communication. A poet can get away with being creative in word usage, but a poet does not have to be technically correct to convey the message.

Oh well.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Using Weight to Flatten a doubler plate.

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