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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / The problem I am facing now is about "Welding Access Hole" a
- By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-02-2010 13:54
The problem I am facing now is about "Welding Access Hole" at Fillet Welded Shape component as shown in Figure 5.2 on AWS D1.1. According to clause 5.17ofD1.1, "Fillet welds shall not be returned through weld access holes", which I take the concerns are about causing cracks probably(correct me if I am wrong here). But the current circumstance in my case is "returned-fillet welds through the access hole" will be more reliable in terms of less possibility of causing cracks. Due to the short of knowledge and experience, I could not find any standard or code supporting this procedure. Any direction or suggestion from you guys will be highly appreciated. Many thanks.
- - By rfieldbuilds (**) Date 04-04-2010 02:58
Please supply more information.
RF
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-04-2010 20:19
5.17.1Weld Access Hole Dimensions. All weld access
holes required to facilitate welding operations shall have
a length (l) from the toe of the weld preparation not less
than 1-1/2 times the thickness of the material in which
the hole is made. The height (h) of the access hole shall
be adequate for deposition of sound weld metal in the ad-
jacent plates and provide clearance for weld tabs for the
weld in the material in which the hole is made, but not
less than the thickness of the material. In hot rolled
shapes and built-up shapes, all beam copes and weld
access holes shall be shaped free of notches or sharp re-
entrant corners except that when fillet web-to-flange
welds are used in built-up shapes, access holes may ter-
minate perpendicular to the flange. Fillet welds shall not
be returned through weld access holes (see Figure 5.2).
Parent - - By rfieldbuilds (**) Date 04-04-2010 21:01
I'm familiar with the code. The weld access hole is for joining the web and flange to a connecting point usually perpendicular to the longitudinal direction of the member. It sounds to me, like you are talking about welding a built up member, (as the code is) by joining three plates to form an H or W shape. Fillet welds would be placed at four locations and WOULD be held back in accordance with the Fig 5.2 you referenced. There would be no reason to join the welds by returning them through the access/rat hole unless directed to do so by engineer.
Regards,
RF
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-05-2010 10:13
So my understanding is if a H shape is jointed by 4 fillet weld. that fillet weld do not need returning through the access holes? Am I right?

What if the H shape is jointed by full penetration weld or partial penetration weld? Also do not need returning?
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-05-2010 20:47
With a full pen weld, the question of "return" doesn't come up.  You weld out to the end of the web (which is at the hole) and grind flush.  Same thing for PJP; you can't hold back like you would a fillet because then you get unfilled groove prep.  See D1.1 Figure 5.2.  The two pictures on the left are for groove welds (CJP or PJP); the two in the middle are for fillet welds.

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-07-2010 11:30
Accoring to your answer, I got two points.
I. for the CJP and PJP, we do not need to return a fillet in the cope hole area. For CJP is easy to understand. But for PJP, I think it is bad for corrusion protection  if you do not welding return.
2. We do not need weld returns for fillet weld.

Am i right?
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-08-2010 15:16
By "return the fillet", they're talking about taking the fillet weld you're making to join the pieces (say the web and flange) and continuing it around the end of the web to join the fillet weld on the other side.  What you would be talking about now would potentially be *adding* some kind of weld at the end of the web in addition to the groove welds.

The prohibition against returning the fillet weld through the hole is twofold--it's a terrible fatigue detail and you're pretty much asking for undercut at the edge of the web.

Regarding corrosion protection, a PJP would have less of a corrosion concern than the fillet welds because the unfused area is a lot smaller.  So if you're concerned about the one, you need to be concerned about the other.  If you ensure a tight enough fit of web to flange, perhaps finish to bear in that area, you can exclude water and bridge the gap with your paint.  If you can't, and there's a really big concern in a high-moisture environment, then you'll have to talk to the Engineer Of Record to balance the problems created by sealing that end with weld (and what precautions you might take during fabrication to avoid some of those problems) vs. leaving it open.  You might consider caulk; lots other people seem to like it although I personally do not have a lot of faith in the caulk's ability to stay on for the lifetime of the asset.

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-08-2010 19:16
Considering what you said about caulk,I think your meaning is to close the gap by some plastic material. I also think it could not endure a long period of time.

What I want to show is eurocode 3. You can see in the attachment.

In the Figure C.17 and C.18 of EN 1993-2. It shows how to weld in the cope hole area.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-08-2010 21:01
That's the inside of an orthotropic deck.  How much corrosion protection do you really need in there?  (And is that a bridge deck?  Shouldn't you be in D1.5?)

Beware of mixing and matching European and U.S. codes.  Each region has its own design codes and welding codes, and the welding codes are written with the design codes in mind and vice versa.  Each region's engineers has come to different conclusions about how to prioritize conflicting design concerns.

However, I think there's been some evidence that wrapping at that particular location *is* considered a good idea.  See for example http://www.ceric.net/kssc/KSSC_3_2005_5_3_211(C).pdf and http://www.aisc.org/assets/0/1209478/1209480/1236512/5f2fc73c-fa37-4262-92a6-61cce87aab32.pdf

If you're not the design engineer for this project, you really need to talk to the design engineer.  They're the ones who can waive the code provision if it's called for.

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-09-2010 10:31
Thks, Hg. You are very knowledgeable.

I have to mention that in D1.5, there is no more details about cope holes.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-09-2010 15:32
Not a lot in D1.5, though with every new edition they do add more illustrative figures.  For now you still need to turn to D1.1 or the AISC steel manual for guidance on what copes & access holes might look like.  But D1.5 doesn't want you returning your fillet weld either, and if that were a web-to-flange weld, it would be absolutely right.  It's a terrible fatigue detail.  But, again, for a rib-to-diaphragm weld on an orthotropic deck, that's a different story.

Is it in fact an orthotropic bridge deck you're working on?  What code is specified?  Did the designer explicitly require returning the fillet weld through the hole?

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-10-2010 16:12
Yes, I am working on the orthotropic bridge deck. I will follow eurocode 3. That is the designers requirments. So I will weld returns at the cope holes area.Thanks Hg.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-12-2010 02:55
So why were you looking at D1.1?

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-13-2010 06:18
I just got confused why there is big difference between AWS D1.1 and Eurocode 3
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-13-2010 15:02
D1.1 and D1.5 don't specifically address that orthotropic bridge deck detail.  For most other cases of a cope hole, the AWS assumption is that it is better not to wrap the fillet weld.  Mostly because of undercut.

But there are various differences.  What happens is there are a lot of situations in engineering where each option has its own set of problems.  Different engineers or code committees will have different opinions about choosing the lesser of two or three evils.  This happens in design, this happens in the welding codes.

An example:  not too long ago I was involved with a U.S. project done by a European company.  They kept introducing access holes where we had not asked for them, because their standard practice was to avoid intersecting welds at all costs.  So where a web would cross a flange splice, they put in a hole in the edge of the web to skip over the flange splice.  Apparently European designers are not worried so much about the fatigue performance of the web-to-flange fillet welds terminating at those access holes, but are terrified of any kind of intersecting welds.  In the U.S., we say some intersecting welds are bad and some aren't a problem, and the web-to-flange weld running across the various web and flange splices is not an issue, but those "access" holes are a terrible, terrible fatigue detail.

The problem was that the bridge was designed to U.S. standards and when the European fabricator introduced European practices without permission, they introduced problems that the bridge was not designed for.  Perhaps a European designer would have designed differently because they were expecting those holes.

This is why we cannot mix and match standards.
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-14-2010 05:49
I do not know why you say that fatigue would happen in the cope hole area.Do you have any basis
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-15-2010 14:20
I can't read that.
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-16-2010 18:01
I do not know why did you say that fatigue will happen in cope hole area. Do you have any basis?
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-16-2010 19:19
I'm not saying that's the case for your application (the orthotropic deck).

The problem with copes in general is that there is an abrupt change of section and thus stress (which is why the shape of the cope is important), and wrapping the weld often causes undercut, magnifying the problem.  I think (but you should definitely not take my word for this because I don't do much design, I just know what designers will & won't allow) that there is another concern with wrapping the weld because then the weld is running transverse to the direction of primary stress. But I'm mostly talking about web-to-flange welds.  Your application is different.

Hg
Parent - - By yyq4794 (**) Date 04-17-2010 08:54
For the orthotropic deck,it has two kinds of weld. The first one is the web to deck(which U-stifferners is connected). The second one is the web to flange weld. But reqirments are the same in Eurocode.  So can you show me something concern about orthotropic deck in AWS standards.
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 04-29-2010 17:19
AWS D1 codes don't explicitly address orthotropic deck.

Hg
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / The problem I am facing now is about "Welding Access Hole" a

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