Hood Lens Cheaters?

Date 04-13-2010 16:02

All,

I searched posts all the way back to "93" on this forum, and you guys have supplied much info on cheaters, but I'm wondering what dioptic strength I need? Never used cheaters in my hood, always wear glasses when welding. Started out with prescription but seemed to cause a bit of glare, so I've been using reading glasses. I have a pair of 1.75 and a pair of 2.00 reading glasses that I wear now. Before I went to the reading glasses I ordered a pair of prescription lenses called occupational lens where you have bifocals on both the top portion of your lens and on the bottom portion of the lens. Having the bi-focal on the top helped as far as having to bend my neck and head back in an un-natural position, but I don't think the bi-focal part is strong enough. I know my eyes have progerssively gotten worse. Anyway, I quit using the prescription glasses a long time ago, and now use only reading glass cheaters regularly. I know, depending on strength; has a direct correlation with distance. As I'm working on these really fine SS trim, averaging about .010 in thickness I really need to magnify my work as much as possible. I measured my face against my work and am welding about 6"-8" away. Henry posted on a previous thread about Phillips Optical, if my memory is correct, and I went to their website. I couldn't find the 2X4's only the 2X4.25's.

Here's the main problem and question to you guys who have experience with hood cheaters. I use a Hornell SpeedGlass, have been using it since about "95" or "96". The inside lens is plastic of course, and the exact measurement is 2" X 4". I think the standard for the other more commonly used hoods is
2" X 4.25". I searched Ebay and the internet for hood cheaters and found only one place that has the 2 X4 cheaters https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl price is $8.95 to $12.95, with a shipping cost of $8.00 +. I'm thinking since I don't know exactly what strength I need, that I should probably order two different strengths. I'm thinking a 1.50 and a 2.00. I think the 2.00 will work if I can get really close to my work. Since I'm tigging I can get reasonably close as long as the clamps aren't in the way. Otherwise I will probably have to use the 1.50. They didn't have the 1.75 which I think might be a little closer to what I need.

I also searched the watch repair sites thinking maybe a loupe or some flip up magnifiers might work also. The watch repair people have a much larger variety of magnifiers than does the welding suppliers, and since I use the SpeedGlass with the off the wall size of inside lens, I'm seriously considering some flip up type cheaters that fit on a pair of glasses.

If you are wearing, oh let's say for example a 1.50 dioptic strength glasses, and you put a 2.00 dioptic strength lens in your hood, does that mean you have a dioptic strength of 3.50? If you need for example a 2.00 dioptic strength to see well, is that all you need in the hood, or should you be wearing your glasses in combination with the hood lens?

The only time I wear glasses is when I'm welding or reading. I don't wear glasses any other time, because my vision is pretty good for far away. It's just the up close vision that needs correction. If I buy a new pair of glasses, the only part that I would use would be the bi-focal part, and I don't have any idea what to tell the eye doctor that I need. Actually, depending on the circumstances, I need different strengths. Example; if I'm stick welding I back off quite a bit, same with wirefeed, but the tigging really need to be magnified considerably, kind of like a macro lens in a camera.

Speaking of macro and camera usage, I have found that if I zoom in on my work piece and take a picture, I can actually do a more thorough inspection of my welds and quality, than I can with the naked eye or even with my reading glasses. Much of the time I will take a magnifiying glass and inspect these tiny welds. They have to be virtually perfect welds and the inspection is very critical.

So anyway, what do ya'll think is a good way for me to go? I've added about as much information in this post as I can think of, and am looking forward to you guys opinion concerning this "half blind welder", or it seems so sometimes. Oh, and one other thing, in most cases, just shopping loupes and cheaters, it's less expensive to go with the watch supplier, than the welding supplier. The watch people have those flip up type of cheaters for about $5.00 a piece, and the ones I found at weldingsupply.com are double that price, and the shipping is rediculous. I think I figured to get a couple of hood cheaters the total cost is about $30.00. I know that's not that much when it comes to doing a good welding job, but I still want to be frugal about what and how I proceed with this situation. Input please!

Take Care
Steve

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By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-13-2010 16:41

I have another question to add to Steve's......Can anyone else verify that photogrey(SP?)....
(ie. prescription glasses that change to a darker tint in sunlight)

.....get darker under the welding shield while welding?

I feel like my auto darkening shield keeps getting darker and darker the longer the arc is lit, but now I suspect that it is my glasses doing this rather than my shield. Anyone else have a similar experience?

I was setting up a track guided FCAW machine lastweek for another company on some material that was over 12 feet long and I kept creeping up on the arc/puddle to see if the Bug-O was tracking the joint correctly. I was borrowing an autoshade shield and thought the shield was goofing up...LOL

By weldwade (***)

Date 04-14-2010 01:24

John I wear photogrey glasses and have not noticed them going dark under the hood? I have both glass and polycarbonate pairs so I will give them a try tomorrow and let you know.

By weldwade (***)

Date 04-14-2010 21:10

John I tried both pairs of glasses today under the hood and neither of them started shading inside the shop, outside they did both stay dark.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-15-2010 11:12

Thanks for testing....hmmm, now I'm wondering what is going on with that shield. I have to keep lightening it up to see what's happening while welding. I ended up at the lightest shade of 8 (the longer that I used it) with the Speedglas shield. I didn't notice any difference while using my ole faithful Jackson EQC though.

By aevald

Date 04-13-2010 18:10 Edited 04-13-2010 18:39

Hello Steve, I'm in the same boat as you. I have a number of Speedglas hoods and most of them aren't real cheater lens friendly. I use full view magnifier safety glasses under mine. I'll try to post a link here for your consideration. http://uswelder.com/store/magsafe.html Hopefully this link will get you to the correct place. Best regards, Allan

EDIT: additionally, when I have something really small or intricate I will use one of my other hoods with the standard cheater mounted in it and then wear the "cheater" safety glasses as well, this allows for that extra magnification that is sometimes beneficial. You also mentioned not knowing which strength is for you, the magnifiers are classed similarly to reading glasses so you could consider going to the local drug store or wherever you might buy reading glasses and do a little bit of comparison shopping to figure what strength you need before ordering something. Speedglas does have special holders for cheaters designed to be used in some of their hoods, I just don't know which ones specifically.

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 04-13-2010 23:20 Edited 04-13-2010 23:23

http://www.tomwatersonline.com/ They can make you a set of of prescription WELDING glasses. I have a set made that are the strength of my Bifocal on the entire lens. THEY WORK GREAT !

By Paladin (***)

Date 04-14-2010 03:35 Edited 04-14-2010 03:38

Here is my take and what works for me. I wear glasses all the time for distance vision and have bifocals for reading.

If I am TIG welding stainless I put in a stronger cheater because I tend to get my head closer to the work. MIG or stick welding I like to be further away and need a lesser strength cheater. There have been times welding pipe in a way too small of a bellhole that to get my head to where I could see the weld, my hood was only a very few inches away from the weld. It was too close for me to focus on the weld. So I used a cheater plus looked through my bifocals. This doubling of magnifiers brought the focus to where I could see at such a close distance. The point is Steve that if you need to have your eyes very close to see the small weld, you will probably need more magnification than available in normal cheaters. So doubling up may be necessary for you.

For normal work I use my regular glasses and the correct cheater in my hood. That way I am not putting on glasses just to weld and taking them off to fit. Forget about tilting your head back and just using bifocals to see the weld. That is a quick way to a sore neck.

I would suggest that to find the correct cheater is to look at very fine print. The trig tables in the back of the Pipe Fitters Blue Book might work. Hold it in front of your hood the distance you will be welding at and find the cheater that focuses the best for you AT THAT DISTANCE.

Most Eye doctors will work with you on any special situation like welding up close. Just tell him the distance you need to focus at and let him figure it out.

So, I am sure there is not one strength cheater that will solve all of your welding situations. So you will probably need several cheaters. I have my regular glasses with bifocals. My computer glasses have the bifocals placed very high in the frame and less strength than my regular bifocals. That is because my laptop is further away than the distance I read at. I can look at my laptop and still see the TV over the top of the bifocals. Also I have single vision glasses adjusted to the distance I read music at which is a greater distance than the computer. Lots of glasses.

And if you are in your early or mid forties, my guess is that in a few years you will need a click or two more magnification than now.

Hope that helps,
Floyd

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-15-2010 14:16

Looks like Tom Waters is a good place to shop. Cool website. If we go thru Baton Rouge I'm going to punch in their address "in my gps device" and will check out their store.

As far as a special order for glasses, I'm good. What I am really looking for is something that will help me on this one specific type project and have just about decided that I will probably go ahead and buy another set of reading glasses, only get some 2.75 or 3.00. And full lenses rather than the small type lens. I will have to hold my head a bit closer to the work than I prefer, but then again, that will be the only time I need them.

Also you guys, John and others mentioned photo grey, and at one time years ago, I had some, but seemed to impair my vision a bit. I think maybe they do try to adjust somewhat to the ark lite. There's an optical store here in town that the guy will work with me on custom glasses, and one time while we were installing sky lites in the mall, almost all welding was done overhead. That is when I special ordered the occupational lenses with the bi-focal on top of lens as well as bottom. I was able to get used to them and they did save my neck from getting too sore. Day after Day of welding overhead will get you pretty sore if you can't get into a comfortable position. Also, while talking to Scott, the guy that has the optical store, we were talking about tint in the glasses. He said he could tint them any way I wanted. So I had him tint them fairly dark and as time went by I decided they were too dark and he did something to the lenses and lightened them up. Kind of like bleach them out. We did that several times, removing the tint, until I was comfortable with them. That was pretty cool, because he could make them dark like sunglasses or red tint like rose coloured. He had several different color tints.

After playing with these 2.75 strength lenses, I figured that is what I need to do.

I've even gone so far as to consider taping a #10 shade lens on my video camera and hook it up to my lap top and see if I can weld by watching the computer screen. A live feed so to speek. Currently I am attempting to set that up. Only problem is getting the camera set up where it won't be in my way. I'll let ya'll know how that crazy idea works. It's just that when I look at the weld with the eyes, and then look at the weld after I take a picture of it, I can see the defects much better thru the photo. My video camera has a super good macro lens and if the auto focus works with the #10 shade, it just might work. Don't know till I try. Heck, the guy hasn't even called me back since the last set of car trim I did, he might not even want me to weld on them anymore. In that case, all this disussion is mute, for me anyway. When he polishes that trim out he expects the colour and surface to be perfect. You can see in that one photo where he brought one back because it had so many pin holes in it. Each time I have to re-weld the weld gets bigger and more chance for inclusions and gas pockets and contamination. That's why it's imparitive to get it right the first time. Some of these pieces he has brought me in the past were very rare, and the guys may have spent decades looking for that one piece to finish their project car. You just don't get many chances to do this if you screw it up. Every portion of this specialty welding has been set up specifically just for that. Including placing a piece of masonite on top of the workbench to reduce scratches and not get any pecker marks on the trim. I find an insignificant spot to hook the ground so there won't be any arking any place on the piece.

Till later, take care
Steve

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-15-2010 14:40 Edited 04-15-2010 14:45

I just handed out some ANSI Z87.1 approved safety glasses here in my shop that have 2.5 readers built into them. I can get the mfg and product number if you're interested.

EDIT:
mfg: CREWS
product number: CRE BKH25
description: 2.5 diopter clear lens

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-16-2010 16:09

Whoa, too cool. Is that a bi-focal line I see on those lenses or is the whole lens magnified? Those look good, and I like the large lens in them.

Like I always say, "You can't weld what you can't see".

Later
Steve

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-16-2010 16:34

Yeah, it has the bi-focal lense of 2.5, the rest of the lense is just clear plastic with no magnification.

By J Hall

Date 04-14-2010 12:14 Edited 04-14-2010 12:18

Speedglas has a cheater holder that you can buy.

http://www.apdmro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=70071534278&Show=ExtInfo

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-16-2010 18:52

J Hall,

I went to the website, but couldn't get a picture of it to come up. What is a cheater holder? and what does it look like? I'm going to go back there, but I couldn't tell anything by the add when I was there before. I'll see if they have a write-up about them though.

Thanks
Steve

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-14-2010 18:05

I'm going to put those sites in my favorites. Thanks!

Steve

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 04-14-2010 21:26

Tom Waters will also make Custom Cheaters JUST FOR YOU! Or Prescription cheaters

By Francisford (**)

Date 04-15-2010 14:25

Hello Steve, what is that part that your welding on?

By Paladin (***)

Date 04-15-2010 19:12

Just in case some might not be aware I would like to add this. As the magnification gets stronger, the depth of focus becomes smaller. When using a #1 magnifier the depth of focus will be from reading distance, or closer, to arms length, or longer. With a #3 the focus range may only be from 12 to 18 inches ( I am just guessing numbers from my experience). So the more magnification one needs, the more important it is to have the correct magnifier for the distance from your eyes to the weld.

Not everyone will want to change out cheaters when going from low amp TIG to heavy duty MIG. I don't always either. But at the end of the day you will be fresher and less likely to have a headache if your eyes are not straining to keep everything in focus.

I once worked with an old Cajun welder named Frenchy. I'm sure he was a good welder in his day. But he was having trouble keeping his weld in the grove or on a fillet weld tying in on both plates. He would not admit he needed a cheater. It was sad to see him struggle with his welding. I am sure he just could not see the weld.

By Blaster (***)

Date 04-15-2010 19:53

I just started using a pair of prescription progressive bifocal "scratch resistant" safety glasses week or two ago. I tried regular bifocal safety glasses, but the line bothered me when moving around the shop.

Wow. I can read the 64ths on a scale again. My welding is more like it used to be too.

They weren't cheap. I think I paid close to $300 bucks for them. But the progressive lens is really nice. My eyes needed different levels of correction too, so the presciption lenses were the ticket.

Maybe something to consider.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-16-2010 16:04

Those pics I posted are from a "57" chevy. tail fin molding. The older cars were manufactured with real stainless steel trim, from front to back. Not like the cheap plastic they use today. There's a guy here, Leo that peens and straightens old pieces of trim out and then polishes it out to a beautiful shine. Even straighter and smoother than they were when they came out of the factory. He has customers from all over the world, who rebuild vintage cars. He only does the stainless molding. If it has any defect at all he fixes it. Fortunatly for me, some of the pieces need some kind of welding on them. I've noticed as I age though, it gets more difficult to repair. (Mostly being able to see). The thickness of most of this is .010" or less, which means a guy has to be real careful, because just a little too much heat and you will burn through, or even worse warp it. The UPS guy delivers the trim to him on an almost daily basis. He is backed up for about 10 months right now. I've been doing his welding since he started that business, about 15 or 20 years ago. Sometimes his customers will have a piece that they have been searching for, for years. Many times when they find it, usually by luck, it has been screwed or riveted back on the car, and those holes have to be filled before he can sand and polish them. Actually the holes are easier to fix, than some of the cracks that they sometimes come with. Many times when the customer has finally collected all the pieces; ie; for a "57" chevy, they will build wooden crates and place each piece in it's custom spot. I forget how many pieces actually make up the entire "57", but it's about four crates. After Leo is finished with them he tapes the surface for protection and then repacks them in their corresponding crate. Actually the crates are for the return shipping and protection of the finished piece. He has trim on mostly show cars, and some of them have made it into magazines and many have won car shows. These guys are the most picky customers you will ever see, and they want everything to be perfect.

This type of welding doesn't bother me until he brings me a piece that is very rare. I know of some pieces he has brought me that the customer had been searching for it for 10 or 15 years, and it's the final piece to the completion. That is when the pressure is on, and I take care in set-up, and actually rehearse the welding before I even strike an ark on it. Many times I will practice on a sample piece to make sure everything is set right.

The only thing I have not been able to repair, and I don't really understand why, but it's the tear drop headlite off of an old Indian motorcycle. They are made of bronze, and then chrome plated. He grinds all of the chrome off, and there is always a crack in the same place on them. I've tried tigging them, silver brazing, and brass brazing. I can fix the crack, but the headlite is so deformed by the time I finish that it is no longer usable. We quit taking them a long time ago. Just wasn't worth the headache.

A couple of weeks ago he brought me a grill off of a 1946 white. Very, very rare. I posted a few pics of the repair job somewhere else in the forum. Originally it had over 90 spot welds, and was made up of about 10 or 15 parts. He had to disassemble the entire grill before he could straighten and polish it, then he brought it to me to tack a few places to make sure it would stay together. That particular job I used oxy/acy and silver to tack. He told me I couldn't discolour it or warp it, otherwise he would have to take it apart and repolish it. You never know how one of these jobs is going to turn out, but that grill turned out to be easy and fast, and I made some good $ on it. I like those!

I use my sychrowave 250 on these parts and maximum amperage of 25. The Hi-Freq has to start immediately or I will stop and start over. The puddle begins at about 18 amps and as the steel heats up, I can reduce the amperage. The ark lite is so low, that I set my hood at #9 shade. I use 2.0 strength reading glasses, but am going to increase them to 2.5 or 3.0. I will just have to get my face closer to the work. I use a .020 2% tungsten and very little argon, just enough to maintain a stable arc. Post flow is important on these. The HAZ and toe of the weld want to dip, so when finishing the weld, you just have to taper all the way around. Like Dave Boyer told me, "sound like that's pretty fussy stuff", which it is. But, when successful you get a great since of satisfaction.

Take Care
Steve

By Francisford (**)

Date 04-17-2010 12:43

Wow Steve, you write good for a weldor. Thank your for the explantion on what the stainless is. That is what it looked like but I was not sure. I have heard about that guy in lawton but cannot remimber who he is. Seems like I had heard about beville getting some stuff done there or something like that. I weld some stainless at work mostly it is commercial sheet metal stuff. have not welded any trim. I did do some stainless venthoods in lawton for a hvac company about 12 years ago or so. They were for a oriental restaurant that had burned down on Cache road and the insurance company paid for new ones.

I think may of seen your truck at Dels Big chief over the years. It is a nice looking truck. Mine is a older F-350. I am friends with a couple of the wrecker drivers down there. I try to meet one of them at leo's every couple of months for breakfast. When the Navy has not got me someplace fun and exciting like they do now. I have know him since the 80's when I worded on video games in 7-11's and he was a manager.

We will have to go get a cup of coffee when I get back to the states or somthing like that.

Steven

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-19-2010 16:44

Thanks Steven,

I consider that a compliment. Writing has become a new hobby or practice for me. I never really had time nor the inclination to write until I got involved in this forum. I guess by now everybody has noticed that I am one long winded dude. But I've found that I really enjoy corresponding with everybody, especially about the trade of welding, and I love thinking back and then telling stories about my past welding and life experiences. I just can't seem to keep it short. I have so much to say, and since I don't work in a shop with a bunch of guys, then I really don't have any place to talk to like minded people except here. Also the writing has turned out to be really good therapy for me, and a release of internal pressure going on in my mind.

You for sure have seen me at the Big Chef. Kent Anderson and I used to go there everyday after a job and sit and drink coffee for a couple of hours. We would also meet with some other welders and other skilled tradesmen, many different professions, and just shoot the bull. I don't go there too often anymore, but still, pretty much the same guys show up. It hasn't changed much over the past many, many years except some of the olerer guys have passed on now. Anderson ended up having lung cancer and he still has his rig, just doesn't do any work anymore. He had one lung removed, and now spends most of his time at home. He still tries to hit the coffee shop as much as he can, but since he got sick it just hasn't been the same anymore. I'm not real good with change I guess. It throws me off because I'm OCD and like everything to be just so so. lol.

I think Leo has done quite a bit of trim for ol Beville. As you probably know, he has a vintage car museum, and it's invitation only to see his cars. I've never been invited to see it, but I hear it's really cool and nice in there. They say he has some really nice cars in there, and their all Chevy's. I don't know if I've welded on any pieces for him through Leo or not; probably, but not sure.

I've done many restaurants here in lawton and several vent hoods and other duct work that required welding. The city inspector comes along afterword and inspects all the work. Can't have any leaks where there might be some grease leak out and catch fire, so they check it out pretty good. I learned after a while that the best way to tackle most of that work is with my suitcase wirefeeder. Only thing, is they don't like the spatter that you end up with on their back splash sheets. I've done frying vats and other SS work in many places. It's good work if you can convince the manager to make sure everything is cleaned up extra good, then I go back over everything with alcohol and a SS brush in my drill. If it's very greasy I will go ahead and grind a little to make sure I've got a good base to start on. A few years back, there was a contractor that worked for Golden Coral, when they built there new restaurant, and that contractor called me for all of their welding on the vents and ducts. The bill was $1250.00 for about 3 days worth of welding and I had to park my rig about 50 feet away from the entrance, and it was a real hassle to set-up, so once I set-up I just had to stay until I finished that part for the day, then start over the next day. I really cut that contractor some slack, and when the job was done they stiffed me for about $900.00. They refused to pay, and I tattled to Golden Coral project manager, and they just told me that was my loss. A few months later Craig from Golden Coral called me for some SS welding in their kitchen and I charged them $100.00 per hr, and he got really mad. I told him from now on just call someone else because they cost me too much already. Needless to say, I won't do anymore work for them unless they make good on what they owe me. I have a memory like an elephant and when someone takes advantage of me, I don't forget it. I better get off of this story, cause I'm getting pissed just thinking about it!

Well, I gotta go for now, but when you get back give me a call and we'll get together. That would be good. Stay safe over there, and thanks for your service.

Take Care
Steve