Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Low Hydrogen SMAW Rods Supplied in Cardboard Cartons
- - By eekpod (****) Date 04-06-2010 19:16
I had an interesting situation presented to me today and I must say I never had this situation before.

A cardboard box of Murex E7016 SMAW electrodes was discovered out in the field.  What was surprising was as the designation "6" makes them low hydrogen why were they supplied in a cardboard box from the manufacturer and not a hermetically sealed can like all our other SMAW rods?  A little investigation revealed why.

Basically D1.1 section 5.3.2.1 Low-Hydrogen Electrode Storage Conditions says, ".....shall be purchased in hermetically sealed containers OR shall be baked by the user in conformance with 5.3.2.4 prior to use".

I am sooooo used to always having the sealed metal containers that I never ran across this situation, and never had a need to look further into the electrode storage condition.  But there is it, "or shall be baked" so basically once we "dry" these electrodes per the code, then they will be low hydrogen again, interesting.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-06-2010 20:35
There is more to it than that....  I've asked this same question myself and after getting an answer simply insist on metal cans when I order electrodes...

A5.1's definition of "Hermetically sealed"  leaves an awful lot of wiggle room my friend.

Think about being a bottom line profit type manufacturer/manager who is looking to invest the absolute least cost into compliance and then read the excerpt below from A5.1.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-06-2010 20:44
I'm pretty sure I could accomplish compliance with a hand full of stick rod and 20 feet of duct tape.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-07-2010 11:23
Problem with that definition is that if the bubbles only last for 29.5 seconds....that only means that it had a little bit of air in the box and that they are now soaking wet even quicker than if they had slightly pressurized air in the box.....LOL...I'm betting that your duct tape will work too.

Smaller the box, the less air that can be trapped inside the box, so you could squish the box down and then dunk it....that would most likely lower the number of seconds that air will be escaping from the box.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-06-2010 22:47
I pulled a 50lb'r of murex off the last job, 3/32 that were in a cardboard box. That was in January and they were in the jobox a year earlier when I first worked with those guys. Brought them home for my kids to play with. Seems like there was another thread here recently that got real deep into rod storage, specifically 7018's.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-06-2010 23:39
Yes that was a good thread...  All about understanding/interpreting code.

It makes me really wonder about all the high level controls required for electrodes once they have been taken out of the shipping container... but  that can be shipped and  stored in cardbord boxes as long as the box doesn't make bubbles for too long when you hold it underwater...  I'm pretty sure a good tape job on cardboard will stop bubbles... But it seems a pretty lax definition to "hermetically sealed"   But that's just my little opinion.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 04-07-2010 10:26
Great info Lawrence, thanks for that.  I can't think of too many cardboard boxes that owuld pass that test.
Chris
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-07-2010 14:23 Edited 04-07-2010 14:25
While the container may meet the requirements of being "hermetically sealed,” it does not mean the electrodes will meet the requirements of "low hydrogen". Whether the electrodes are in a hermetically sealed container or not, they still have to meet the requirements that the coverings meet the moisture limitations.

When there is a question of the condition of a low hydrogen electrode, I pull out the baby oil and glass beaker to assess the amount of hydrogen produced when a weld is deposited with the electrode in question.

The demonstration usually settles the discussion within a few minutes. If there are a few bubbles, OK, a lot of bubbles toss them out or bake them as per the requirements of D1.1.

The attached photograph is one that many of you have seen before. It is a photograph of a weld deposited using "new" electrodes removed from a plastic container wrapped in plastic wrap purchased by a contractor from Home Depot. Eyes popped and jaws dropped. Exactly the results I expected. I really didn’t have to say anything other than to explain what the bubbles were. The electrodes were discarded and new tin-cans of electrodes were on the job Monday morning.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-07-2010 16:28
Al,
How did you identify what the bubbles were?  :)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-07-2010 16:44
Do you suspect he was soaking the electrodes in Champange?

>snort<

Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-07-2010 17:21
Nah, Al's to frugal for champagne. Maybe Pepsi.  :)
Of course my arguments are record, but I just always thought it interesting from the photos that if it is hydrogen (and it may very well be) it is not acting like it should given our understanding of what hydrogen is supposed to do, how it moves through material, and how its evolution is time temp related.
But then again, maybe its one of them optical delusions.  :)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-08-2010 03:31
I saw it in a book once.

Al
Parent - - By kkfabricator (**) Date 05-10-2010 02:17
Al,
could you please explain to me how you perform this test? do yo submerge the piece in the oil, or do you just wipe it on and also, how do you determine how many bubbles are acceptable? I have a problem with electrode storage in my shop, but my boss and the other welders don't seem to think it matters. I would really like to have a test to back up what I am trying to explain to them.

Thanks, Chuck
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-10-2010 19:52
Perhaps the easiest way for you to achieve the deisired results is to make three samples. The first sample is a weld deposited with E6010 cellulose covered electode. A second sample can be welded with a fresh E7018 taken from an unopened 10 pound tin. The third sample can be welded using an E7018 used by the shop welders. It isn't unusual to find low hydrogen electrodes lying about on their bench tops.

1) Obtain a clear glass or plastic container of sufficient size to hold the three samples and 4 to 6 inches of "baby oil". The baby oil can be purchased at any drug store, Walgren, CVS, etc.

2) You will need three pieces of 1/4 x 1 x 3 inch bar stock (I use backing bars cut to the proper length). The material can be any carbon steel or high strength low alloy steel.

3) Make a weld using E6010 on one sample. Immediately immerse the welded piece in water to cool it. Don't let the welded piece sit around while you make the other welds. Cool it immediately after welding. Dry it with air or paper towel and knock off any flux and wire brush the piece. Place it in the oil as soon as it is cooled and dried.

4) Repeat step 3 using the E7018 removed from the unopened tin.

5) Repeat step 3 using the E7018 that was lying about in the shop.

Within 5 minutes of being immersed in the baby oil you will see a layer of "white" forming on the surface of the weld. This hydrogen gas evolving from solidified weld. The gas will coalesce until the bubbles gets large enough to break free of the weld and they will slowly float up through the baby oil.

There will be a lot of little bubbles from the E6010 and the E7018 that was lying about. There will be very few bubbles from the weld made with the fresh low hydrogen electrode. The difference should be very evident.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By kkfabricator (**) Date 05-11-2010 02:29
Al,
Thank you very much for this information. I can finnally SHOW them what I have been learning.
Chuck
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-11-2010 04:05
Be forewarned that the E7018-H4 and E7018-H4R produce less hydrogen than the garden variety E7018.

E7018 hydrogen requirements are met if the diffusible hydrogen is less than 16ml/100g of weld deposit. Whereas the -H4 and -H4R requirements are met provided the diffusible hydrogen doesn't exceed 4ml/100g of deposit. The result is that the -H4 and -H4R are more resistant to moisture and will often result in fewer bubbles being seen in the baby oil.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-12-2010 17:30
"how do you determine how many bubbles are acceptable?"
You need to purchase a laser bubble densitometer. This piece of high tech equipment will measure in incrments of 10,000ths of second the cross sectional variation in density on a plane meaured to be 1/1000th  of an inch thick. It then feeds this raw data into a computer with a preprogrammed algorithm to determine cross sectional variation in differential density. From this it will calculate bubble count which can be compared to the acceptance criteriia of the Tables available in AWS Standard BS-3.14159.
From this you can also cross reference to the diffusable hydrogen criteria and detemrine the acceptability and compliance of your welding electrode.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Low Hydrogen SMAW Rods Supplied in Cardboard Cartons

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill