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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / ASME B31.3
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-12-2010 02:28
In class m piping ASME B31.3 section M341.4.1 states tha tg 20% OF welds are subject to xray. unless  an alternative NDT
method is substituted as per asme B31.3 section344.7. My question is who decides what the alternative ndt testing shall be and tlo what extent.
Does a visual examinatikon qualify to replace an xray? 

Question 2 asme K300 high pressure pipeing at whatg pressure does the K code take effect. what im reading says pressure in excess of ASME
B16.5 Pn420 class 2500. what psi does this translate tol thank you  Joe
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-12-2010 17:18
For quesiton 1 UT is the only alternative. Visual is not an acceptable substitute. And it is decided by the end user essentially.
I do not have a ready answer for question 2.
Parent - - By Bonniweldor (**) Date 11-02-2010 19:44
There is no paragraph M341.4.1; there is the M341.4 callout of 341.4.1 and modifications of 341.4 by M341.4.  (ref. B31.3, 2008)

The nomenclature "alternative NDT" is not used in 341 or M341.  Per 341.4.1(b)(1), the word used is "subsittuted".

Paragraphg 344.7 is specifically titled "In-Process Examination". 

Per 341.4.1(b)(1), In-Process Examination may be substituted for normally applied RT or UT if specified in design or authorized by the (owner's) Inspector.
Thus, the persons authorized to make the choice to permit substitutional In-Process Examination are employed by the Owner.
The extent relates to how often the one for one substitution is permitted by the Owner.  Normally, the substitution is made only when there are significant technical constraints (not economic per se) against the use of RT or UT for the specific joint. 

Visual examination by itself absolutely can not "replace" the requirement for "Other", i.e. RT or UT examination; ref. 341.4.1, leading pragraph; (a) Visual and (b) Other have the same status.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 11-03-2010 02:49
Bonnieweldor; are you an Attorney or a Professional Engineer?  I'm not quite sure I follow your thought process in picking apart the words but do agree with your statement: "Thus, the persons authorized to make the choice to permit substitutional In-Process Examination are employed by the Owner."

Try to lighten up a bit you may sound a bit more intelligent if you just stick to the matter at hand instead of trying to interpret.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-08-2010 21:05
You do mean substituted as opposed to "subsittuted" correct? After all, you did spell it right the second time around. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 11-12-2010 13:28
When I was with Bechtel working on a DOE site B31.3 341.4.1 b (1) was applied to our Normal fluid service piping. We substituted on weld by weld basis the In-Process examination clause per 344.7. instead of performing Radiography. This was aggreed to by DOE. I was a welding engineer on this project and although they never told us why they were allowing this I'm sure DOE was just doing there part of trying to save the tax payers some money. :)

Thanks
Jim
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-13-2010 01:55
could you tell me where to find your answer in the ASME B31.3. I tend to agree with you that visual
won't replace an xray  but i can't find it in writing any where . The contractor is trying to avoid inspection
of anykind other than visual. The alternative ndt requirements have to be listed somewhere!
Thanks  Joe
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-13-2010 13:17
Actually, I misunderstood.
I believe this is the correction you are looking for.
Per M341.4 (a) you have to do VT on everything.
Per M341.4 (b) (1) you have to do random RT/UT just like normal service.
The language for the exception applies to the additional 20% not the original 5% required as per 341.4.1.
Is it reasonable to assume that Cat M would have less stringent examination than Normal Fluid Service in that you can get away with only VT on Cat M but Normal Fluid Service requires 5% RT/UT?
Also, why would the code insist on doing VT on everything and then say that you can substitute VT for RT. Why would you even consider RT if VT  is already a requirement and negates the need for RT?
The answer is, the alternative applies to the additional 20% and is an 'In Process" visual examination per 344.7.
I think your contractor is tyring to slip one through.
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-14-2010 20:41
so in other words they have to xray a minimum 5 percent  the welding engineer says they can use an alternative
vt in leiu of all xrays    can somebody else please jump in hear  asme is very confusing
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 05-14-2010 21:36
VT, MT, PT = Surface exams
RT, UT = Volumetric exams.

There are no variations of any asme code that allow substitution of a surface exam where a percentage or 100 percent "Volumetric" exam is required.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-15-2010 02:18 Edited 05-15-2010 02:25
M341.4 Extent of Required Examination
Paragraph 341.4.1 applies with the following
exceptions:
(a) Visual Examination
(1) All fabrication shall be examined.
(2) All threaded, bolted, and other mechanical
joints shall be examined.
(b) Other Examination
(1) The random radiography/ultrasonic examination
requirements of para. 341.4.1(b)(1) apply except that
at least 20% of circumferential butt and miter welds and
of fabricated lap and branch connection welds comparable
to those shown in Figs. 328.5.4E and 328.5.5 sketches
(d) and (e) shall be examined.
(2) The in-process examination alternative permitted
in para. 341.4.1(b)(1) may be specified on a weld for-
weld basis in the engineering design or by the Inspector.
It shall be supplemented by appropriate nondestructive
examination.

344.7 In-Process Examination
344.7.1 Definition. In-process examination comprises
examination of the following, as applicable:
(a) joint preparation and cleanliness
(b) preheating
(c) fit-up, joint clearance, and internal alignment prior
to joining
(d) variables specified by the joining procedure,
including filler material
(1) (for welding) position and electrode
(2) (for brazing) position, flux, brazing temperature,
proper wetting, and capillary action
(e) (forwelding) condition of the root pass after cleaning
— external and, where accessible, internal — aided
by liquid penetrant or magnetic particle examination
when specified in the engineering design
(f) (for welding) slag removal and weld condition
between passes
(g) appearance of the finished joint
344.7.2 Method. The examination is visual, in
accordance with para. 344.2, unless additional methods
are specified in the engineering design.

K300 GENERAL STATEMENTS
(a) Applicability. This Chapter pertains to piping designated
by the owner as being in High Pressure Fluid
Service. Its requirements are to be applied in full to
piping so designated. High pressure is considered herein
to be pressure in excess of that allowed by the ASME
B16.5 Class 2500 rating for the specified design temperature
and material group.However, there are no specified
pressure limitations for the application of these rules.

In very general terms, it would be my opinion that these pressures for Chapter K would normally exceed 10KSI.
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-15-2010 02:30
Bottom line can the welding engineer waive all Radiographic inspection and still comply to asme b31.
im having a little battle with the engineer , this is a nuclear facility and they wantg to waive xrays !!!
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-15-2010 04:27
The welding engineer can waive x-rays but he'd best have some technical back-up to do it and what are you doing on a nuclear plant thats B31.3????  I've worked on nuke plants a majority of my life and seen B31.1 involved often but only seen B31.3 on "goverment" i.e., DOE plants.  Curious......
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-15-2010 05:00
its a doe facility that just became a nuclear facility, this is the code the weld engineer called out.
i really don't think he knows the difference. the material is 304 stainless sch 10 butt welds to have a back up strip.
so i take it im ok to sign off welds to his criteria and if something goes wrong it's on him. He also speced some pipe
high pressure which falls under typek which calls for 100% xray no backup rings allowed. he says he's not going to follow
this code either. makes me wonder why im even here  lol  than you
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-15-2010 06:49 Edited 05-15-2010 06:55
Hi Joe!

I just sent you a reply to your PM... I'll just copy & paste it here... I noticed Jon beat me to it with respect to the answer to your query, but nonetheless they certainly can go the route they chose to do so according to ASME B31.3, and I try my best to explain it to you without going off on a tangent or two, so please read carefully...

I believe the difficult part of understanding B31.3 is the fact that class "M" piping is always referring to the inspection and examination requirements in the previous section covered and sometimes one has to go back and forth within the code to properly understand what these friggin code writers are trying to convey!!! :( :( :(  In other words, they do a pizz poor job sometimes of putting it all together where it can be easily understood...

So, now that I confided my own experiences with ASME, let's get to the heart of the matter...

Part 10, Inspection, Examination, Testing and Records of Metallic Piping

M340
Paragraph 340 applies in it's entirety

M341 Examination
Paragraphs 341.1, 341.2, 341.3, and 341.5 apply in their entirety. See para. M341.4.

M341.4
Extent of Required Examination

Paragraph 341.4.1 Applies with the following exceptions:

(a) Visual examinations

(1) All Fabrication shall be examined. (2) all Threaded, Bolted and other Mechanical joints shall be examined.

(b) Other examination

(1) Random Radiography/Ultrasonic examination requirements of para. 341.4.1(b)(1) apply except that at least 20% of circumferential butt and miter welds and o fabricated lap and branch connection welds comparable to those shown in Figs. 328.5.4E and 328.5.5 sketches (d) and (e) shall be examined.

(2) The in-process examination alternative permitted in para. 341.4.1 (b)(1) may be specified on a weld for weld basis in the engineering design or by the inspector.
It shall be supplemented by appropriate non-destructive examination.

This is where the senior inspector is referring to when he mentions his alternatives to you in order to avoid RT examination.

Now, let's go back to paragraph 341.4.1 (b)(1) found more towards the beginning of ASME B31.3 shall we???

341.4.1
Extent of Required Examination

Now, we have to find "Other Examination" first, and then go down to read parentheses (1) which reads like this:

(b) Other examination

(1) Not less than 5% of circumferential butt and mitered groove welds  shall be examined fully by random radiography in accordance with para. 344.5 or by random ultrasonic examination in accordance to para. 344.6. the welds to be examined shall be selected to ensure that the work product of the welder or welding operator doing the production welding is included. They shall also be selected to maximize coverage of intersecting longitudinal weld(s) is examined, at least the adjacent 38mm (1-1/2") of each intersecting weld shall be examined.

In-process examination in accordance to para. 344.7 may be substituted for all or part of the Radiographic or Ultrasonic examination on a weld for weld basis if specified in the engineering design or specifically authorized by the inspector.

So what does paragraph 344.7 state?? Let's go there and see for ourselves!

344.7
In Process Examination
344.7.1 Definition

In Process examination comprises examination of the following, as applicable:
(a) Joint preparation and cleanliness
(b) preheating
(c) Fit up, Joint clearance, and internal alignment prior to joining
(d) Variables specified by joining procedure, including filler metal
(1) (For welding) Position and electrode
(2) (For brazing) Position, flux, brazing temperature, proper wetting and capillary action.
(e) (For Wedling) Condition of the root pass after cleaning - External, and where accessible, Internal - aided by liquid penetrant or by magnetic particle examination when specified in the engineering design.
(f) (For welding) Slag removal and weld condition between passes.
(g) Appearance of the finished joint.

344.7.2 Method

The examination is visual, in accordance with para. 344.2 unless additional methods are specified in the engineering design. So this is the key sentence in the clause!

So if you read what I just emphasized here above, you will understand how they are correct in going this route as opposed to performing the usual 5 to 20% minimum RT/UT examination. I hope you now understand that this clause gives them the option of going 100% visual instead.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-15-2010 08:09 Edited 05-15-2010 08:12
Joe, when I was involved in DOE works, back in the late 1980's, I alo had a welding engineer who said he wasn't going to follow code.  That didn't last long!!!  :) 

First, a little background, many of the DOE sites are former weapons facilities and were built back in the late 1940's to late 1950's, one of the largest was built and operated by DuPont for nearly 40 years.... DuPont was, and remain, instrumental in developing the B31.3 Code.

Now, that said, as some of these sites switch over from weapons related to power, once a nuke plant involves power production the NRC is involved.  It's not like the old days when NRC were shut out of these facilities.  I suggest you follow whatever the engineer specifies but it also sounds like he'd better watch his backside because it could get bitten.... badly!

As for high pressure, we're talking another kind of animal and dealing with potentially LETHAL forces, I would document in very clear means every deviation from spec or code.  Good luck, it sounds like you may have a loose cannon!!!!
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-15-2010 14:24
Thank you all very much for your great advice. Yes this was and still is a testing facility
it is in the process of changing over to nuclear code. I have been a welder for over 25 years going on 3 as an inspector
never in the hundreds of jobs ive worked on have i ever seen an inspector waive xrays on b3.13 class m pipeing. This facility
recently underwent a triple a audit and is in the process of trying to recover from the huge chunk missing from their rearends
and pay all the fines. I was brought in to specifically address that all welding done on the project would be done to the right codes
and guidlines and to help stop the getter done mentality. One more question can the engineer waive xray on high pressure type k piping?
ASME calls for 100% xray with no alternative nde substitutions. I can't believe that the DOE is allowing an engineer to bypass the ASME
codes to avoid the cost of xrays . It seems to me that by lessening the code requirements that you would be in violation of CR49. I am going
to inspect to the codes that i am given and i am going to document every deviation from code and cover my own ass.  Im extremely frustrated
in the fact im trying to do my job to the best of my abilities and I feel like  it's shut your mouth and stamp it. I can't wait to review their
wps and wpqr and welder qualification records next week. I already overheard a conversation about backdating continuity  records on welders
with lapsed certs to avoid retesting. im about to become the inspector from hell lol
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-16-2010 05:55
With regard to whether the Engineer can waive NDT / RT for High Pressure, that depends largely on whether or not your state is a "Code" state.  If it is, he may NOT waive volumetric examination on High Pressure piping.  In this years issue (2010 Edition) of B31.3, UT is permitted in lieu of RT, this is the first Edition its ever been an allowable substitution.  Sounds like you have the right plan in hand.  Good luck!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / ASME B31.3

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