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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Hit a Wall
- - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-20-2010 15:30
A brick wall.   I am working with D1.2 (2008).

This post does not concern progression, but does concern direction.  I'll post a photo when I am done.

A welder runs a standard qualification test plate in the 2G position.  On final inspection, I see one cover pass going left to right and the other going right to left.  I cannot find where in D1.2 this is addressed, so I am asking the forum for some guidance. 

Is this allowable?  The WPS was qualified only in one direction.  The inspector who performed the initial VT obviously needs his eyeballs calibrated, because I saw it and immediately questioned it.  It appears...but I cannot say for sure...that the plate may have been turned 180 deg. for that final pass.  So what do you guys and gals think? 

Note: for this particular test plate the point is moot because the RT results returned gross porosity for the entire length.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-20-2010 15:41
Is progression left to right or visa versa an essential variable in D1.2?....up and down are usually...hmmm. interesting, I didn't know that.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-20-2010 16:32
If its not prohibited its allowable.   :)
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-20-2010 16:38
I was thinking this could fall into that category.  But I wanted to see if anyone ran into this before.
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 05-20-2010 23:17
Based on bead appearance, I suspect that test plate was rotated.  While the code may not specifically prohibit removing the plate and rotating it to make bead placement and appearance more favorable, I would question the welder's ability to make a sound weld without rotating production welds and require a new test plate be welded with closer supervision.
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-21-2010 11:44
Based on the RT results, I already question this welder's ability. :)  Swiss cheese got nuthin' on this film!
Parent - - By nantong (**) Date 05-21-2010 01:04
Anybody witness this test?

Someone else has stated how is the last pass on the bottom however I know it is a picture but it looks flat to me as if it was welded downhand.

No problem welding in different directions as long as the interpass temp. is not exceeded (and it would help if the welder is ambidextrous).

Even if this failed RT you need to look at how you control these tests.
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-21-2010 11:49
My inspector witnessed this test, but did not watch the guy like a hawk every minute (obviously).  We're a small outfit, and my lead welders are normally very good at ensuring these new guys know what to expect during QT as far as the procedure goes.  This one seems to think his stuff doesn't stink, and is seemingly ignorant of the very stringent cleaning and prep requirements for this material and process.  Add to that the fact that it's very humid around here right now, and we have a recipe for disaster.  Or at least a helluva lot of porosity.
- - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-20-2010 16:31 Edited 05-20-2010 16:37
Assuming that all else is equal, vertical up depends on a "shelf" under the bead to hold the puddle in place - you can build a larger and thicker weld bead.  Vertical down has no "shelf" so the bead tends to be thin and wide.  So there is large variation in technique between vertical-up and vertical-down.

Progression doesn't matter with flat, horizontal or overhead welds because gravity is influencing the weld puddle in a direction that will not matter.  The technique will be relatively the same regardless of what direction you travel.

After a re-read of the orignal post I have to modify my comments.  I can see how an upper and a lower pass would be significantly different than if the plate were allowed to be rotated during the test - for 2 lower passes.  My thinking was that usually plates are set in poeition and not allowedto be moved until after the test is completed.
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-20-2010 16:39
That goes without saying, but I suspect that the rule was not followed, resulting in the change of direction.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-20-2010 16:52
Good eye Chet!...I didn't catch that the plate would have had to be rotated to achieve the passes in that order...normally you wouldn't put the top pass in before the bottom (shelf) pass).
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-20-2010 18:38
Trying to understand.

Going from left to right and then right to left would be ok on a horizontal test.

The problem you observe is that you suspect that the plate was flipped and the top became the bottom?  Which would be unacceptable?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-20-2010 18:53 Edited 05-20-2010 18:57
Unless I'm looking at this all wrong,

If the plate wasn't rotated....they would have had to place the next to last pass at the top of the groove travelling from right to left and then place the final pass at the bottom of the groove travelling from left to right....I suppose that it could be done but gravity may have something to say about that.

If they ran the 2nd to last pass from left to right, flipped the plate over and ran the final pass left to right....it would probably will look more like the picture.

During a performance test, I wouldn't normally allow the welder to take the test plate down at any point during the test(there have been exceptions for teachable moments)....the position it started in would be the same position in which they capped it off.

...was this test monitored by anyone?

EDIT: wait a minute....is that a broken tack at the top of the plate?...could that be where the plate was tacked to the table?...if so, then all is well. the passes would be in the correct order.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 05-20-2010 20:33
This brings up a very interesting situation.  I guess we have all assumed the once the test is started, that it stays in that position and never moves...except in your case.

I'm skimming through D1.2 quickly, Table 3.1  has Welding Position as an essential variable, but it does not address direction, but considering the plate appears to have been removed and re-POSITIONED in an different orientation (180 degrees from where it was in the beginning)  Table 3.3 does not address that situation specifically.

Also Table 3.1  Direction of Welding mentions forehand vs backhand, and up vs down but no left vs right.

Either way, I'd say it's be ok, not great, but since the guy failed anyway, and he has to re-test, make a note of the WPS stating that the plate shall not be moved once welding has started.  This way he knows he can't switch the plate.

Think about it, why did he flip it over? most likely to make it easier for himself to weld the next pass, and maybe he's only decent in going one direction.  The problem comes when he gets into production.. what is he going to flip every piece he welds over if needed? depending on the size and type of parts that may not be possible.
My point is you need to make sure he can weld in THAT position, without monkeying with the test parameters, make him re-test and make sure he doesn't flip it anymore.
Good Luck
Chris
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-20-2010 20:34
There is nothing wrong with alternating the direction in which the welder is traveling for any position other than vertical. In fact it is best is the welder does not run left to right or right to left pass after pass after pass. Doing so usually results in underfill on one end and excessive reinforcement on the opposite end. Alternating the direction of travel tends to keep the level of fill more consistent.

I believe many inspectors will agree that once the plate or nipples are in position, the test piece stays in the test position until it is completed. Any cleaning that has to be completed between weld beads is done in the test position. If the welder can reposition the work to clean it, why not simple weld it in the most favorable position to begin with and safe some aggravation?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-21-2010 11:55 Edited 05-21-2010 11:57
Agreed.  I do not allow them to break it free for cleaning, and somehow this guy did it, maybe during a break when my guy wasn't looking...?  Either way, I got my answer for the original question.  I read D1.2 forward and backward and couldn't find anything about direction, except concerning verticals.  Interesting how you have to learn some things! 

As far as controls go, I have never had a case here (been here 3 years now) where the welder intentionally broke the plate free and rotated it.  Needless to say, it will not be happening again!

Thanks to everyone for your answers and insights.  Happy Friday.

Edit: Let me amend my assessment.  I cannot prove that the welder did rotate the piece, but I will take steps to ensure this never happens.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-23-2010 04:49 Edited 05-23-2010 04:53
Hi Curt!

I would test him again because of the fact that he did not perform the weld test properly by rotating the test joint especially if this clown has some experience under his belt...

I cannot even begin to count how many times some of my students would try to do this thinking that they could get away with it, because of the fact that I couldn't be by every booth/work station - every single minute they were taking the test!!! :) :) :)

Every time they left obvious evidence that showed they moved the test plate and in my mind, once that test plate has been moved, it means one thing and one thing only!
The student, or welder who was trying to qualify would have to retest - PERIOD!!! No need to over analyze this situation because it's clear that the plate was moved and to me and hopefully many others who have tested welders that doing this is an automatic FAIL!!! :) ;) ;)

Curt, give him another test, unless your hiring this guy, because then I would tell him this: "You've got one chance to set the record straight - CAPECHE??? Now, did you, or did you not move the test plate during the test while welding???" If he says no and denies it vehemently, then send him down the road - PERIOD!!!

But if he admits it, then explain to him how you figured it was moved and then say to him this: "Okay wise a$$, I'll give you one more chance, and this time I'll be watching you - like a hawk!!! And if you don't agree, then pick up your gear and head the heck out of here, because we don't need people in here that aren't trustworthy - CAPECHE???"

That's my suggestion FWIW Bro! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-24-2010 16:30
I see in this guy's future more time in the U/E line....the swami hath spoken.

On a positive note, Hank, my daughter is swearing in today.  She decided to go IS - Intelligence Specialist.  So there's one more squid in my family!
- - By supermoto (***) Date 05-21-2010 15:56
He may have turned it but like everyone else it doesn't matter which direction unless it was a 3G.  To me it looks like maybe there was some underfill or some sort of discontinuity and this person just put a pass in the middle of the weld to cover it up.  I would hope that people are not making assumptions that it was turned, but makes you think maybe this person turned it and thought they could cheat a little.  Maybe just have this person just take another one, if they are that good it shouldn't take but a couple minutes to do another.

If you look at it in that position it looks like the top pass is sagging a little at the top and the bottom pass looks like it has a little sag at the bottom, which tells me that it was not turned.
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-21-2010 16:21
Actually, I thought the photo showed a lower bead that was suspiciously flat.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Hit a Wall

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