Engineers rights to change code procedures

Date 05-24-2010 19:59

Not sure I agree with the idea that the engineer can change what he wants and it still be code. You have to comply with the code no matter what.
To my knowledge ASME does not operate like AWS in that there is an EOR that can override. An engineer can override of course all that he wants, but then it isn't ASME code.
If contract docs say it is to be inspected to code it is inspected to code. Until someone with authority in writing grants that it be inspected to a design spec instead.

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 05-24-2010 19:59

Any flange catalog (is Taylor Forge still in business?) shows the difference between a socket weld and a slip on flange. Show it to the enginer to demonstrate him that what he calls a "socket weld flange" is not a socket weld flange.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil

PS. Is Taylor Forge still in business?

By Superflux (****)

Date 05-25-2010 02:34

Giovanni,
I have seen Taylor Forge products still showing up on jobsites in the past 2 years. Since I am not currently involved in procurement, I cannot say with any authority or not if these are "on the shelf in stock items" from old inventory or if they are indeed still in business. Bonney Forge also lies under the same aforementioned status.
Just my observations.

By Joey

Date 05-25-2010 03:10

Prof Crisi,

Before I keep the piping handbook, here are differences:

Socket-Weld (SW) Flange. Socket-weld flanges are often used on hazardous duties involving high pressure but are limited to a nominal pipe size NPS 2 (DN 50) and
smaller. The pipe is fillet-welded to the hub of the SW flange. Radiography is not practical on the fillet weld; therefore correct fitting and welding is crucial. The fillet
weld may be inspected by surface examination, magnetic particle (MP), or liquid penetrant (PT) examination methods.

Slip-on Flanges. Slip-on flanges are preferred to weld-neck flanges by many users because of their initial low cost and ease of installation. Their calculated strength
under internal pressure is about two-thirds of that of weld-neck flanges. They are typically used on low-pressure, low-hazard services such as fire water, cooling water,
and other services. The pipe is ‘‘double-welded’’ to both the hub and the bore of the flange, but, again, radiography is not practical. MP, PT, or visual examination
is used to check the integrity of the weld. When specified, the slip-on flanges are used on pipe sizes greater than NPS 2¹⁄₂ (DN 65).

Regards
Joey

PS. World Cup is coming :) I think the final match will be Brazil vs Argentina :)

By Joey

Date 05-25-2010 04:32

Joe,

B31.3 clearly states "the designer is cautioned that the Code is not a design handbook; it does not do away with the need for the designer or for competent engineering judgment"

In API 570 it says "piping engineer: One or more persons or organizations acceptable to the owner or user who are knowledgeable and experienced in the engineering disciplines associated with evaluating mechanical and material characteristics affecting the integrity and reliability of piping components and systems. The piping engineer, by consulting with appropriate specialists, should be regarded as a composite of all entities necessary to properly address a technical requirement.

I hope you can relax now, you will not be the fall guy based on the above info.

Regards
Joey

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 05-25-2010 13:05

Joey,
I think that is meant to mean the code cannot possibly cover the thousands of different scenarios we are faced with daily.
No engineer can arbitrarily change something that is in the code or do something that does not comply with the code.
The moment they do that the piping, tank, pressure vessel etc does not comply to the code and the customer will be loath to pay for a non code compliant item,
Cheers,
Shane

By js55

Date 05-25-2010 13:57

Shane is right. If the engineer wants to design something that isn't per code he can do that. But then the owner is open for liability if there is a failure because it is not compliant with ASME, and then would be faced with a litigous justification.
Why would you impose this upon yourself?
Also, if the specification says NDE/inspection per ASME then its NDE/inspection per ASME, or its not ASME.
I still think you have a clarification in writing due to you if they wish to take this approach.
The engineering of it may be perfectly acceptable. That isn't whats at issue. Code compliance is.

By bert lee (**)

Date 05-25-2010 13:58

but the customer has given the power to select the engineer, which must be proven as competent.
if the engineer decided to do something which does not comply to the code, the customer must be aware and agreed before the work proceed.

ayos lang po
bert

By Joey

Date 05-25-2010 16:35

Shane,

Good day! Sure I will not encourage the engineer to violate the code requirements. My job as inspector is to ensure that the drawings given to me for my inspection reference have approval by designer / or engineer in-charge.

Regards
Joey

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-25-2010 18:03

does not mean he will have to put his stamp on it. lol He references code B31.3 nowhere on his drawings or
work packages does it mention that he has deviated from the code and is using alternative design calculations
I think a written stamped document with all deviations and design calculations is in order

By Joey

Date 05-26-2010 01:18

I will assume that you’re newly employed by the company and you are not aware of the company procedure. In your case, prior to your inspection involvement, it is important for you to ask your supervisor for work orientation, you have the right to ask for QA/QC manual, you have the right to know the project organization chart. You also have the right to understand the process flow / procedure for approval, distribution and retrieval of drawings to the production / QC personnel to ensure that only approved drawings are used during fabrication, erection and inspection. You have to clarify whether all these drawings, engineering change notice issued must bear the designer or engineer’s approval stamp.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-26-2010 13:34

thank you the company gave me their welding Manual then declined to use it in leiu of asmeB31.3 to avoid the xray requirements of there own manual
as for drawings this is a rebuild of a machine that got contaminated. They are using the original drawings that were not designed per asmeB31.3 there was no code used
thats where all the problems are comming in trying to use parts that were fabricated non code and use them on a job that is now under code. They just sent me home for two
weeks while they try and get the mess ironed out lol 7200 in 3 weeks and basically did nothing but review weld plans lol

By Joey

Date 05-29-2010 16:13

Joe,

Seek your lawyer's advice if you think you've suffered emotional and psychological trauma :) from being forced to stay home....ask if you are covered by conscience protection regulations, if your conscience rights were violated by not be able to reject non code fabricted parts :) :)

Have a nice weekend.

Joey

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-29-2010 18:14

be it big or be it small build it right or not at all. Im sure there are alot of inspectors out there that will stamp
anything without even looking at the code . Im not one of them . If i feel that something is not being fabricated
or welded correctly I will speak up and do research to arrive at the correct answer for the situation. This project
i have been involved in deals with the testing of plutonium for nuclear weapons. I for one want to see this thing built right
at an initial cost of 26 million to the taxpayers of this country and a few hundred thousand every time they use this device
I believe that the Quality of the welds and pipeing should be of the highest quality standard available. how well would you sleep at
night if you found out that a 2" socket weld blew apart with 1400 psi of nitrogen hitting someone in the face and killed them.
The ASME codes were established for a reason to help ensure the safety of the public worldwide. The fact that some engineer thinks
that you add tungsten to a weld while tig welding to make it stronger has the authority to over ride codes on a nuclear project
horrifies me. How many more of these govt projects are being handled this way. They are dealing with weapons grade Plutinium
this isn't the water line going out to the outhouse on the farm. I have the documentation necessary to prove what they are doing
is wrong! end of rant

By jrw159

Date 05-29-2010 21:25

Joe,
Great response!! To damn many "Yes Men" out there willing to turn a blind eye to things that are wrong. And here is the kicker..... To damn many companies looking specifically for these inspectors!!!

End of rant.

jrw159

By Joey

Date 05-30-2010 02:35

Joe it's not a rant! Maybe my mistake to assume that you have a state law that protects conscience rights. But if you have and want to fight for your right, consult a lawyer and check if your case is covered by conscience protection regulations under federal law.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-30-2010 03:57

The main reason i became an inspector was that I was a welder most of my life and figured
the transition wouldn't be that hard. I have worked with many good inspectors and bad inspectors
who don't have a clue what there doing. I just can't believe what i've witnessed in the last 3 1/2
weeks can actually be taking place in a NRC regulated facility . The four planners on this job have
absolutely no nuclear experience . they are all retired craftsmen that worked at this facility . One was a painter,
one was a plumber, one was an electrician, and the fourth one was a machinist. Being led and directed by
an engineer who's an idiot. The craft trades on the project just stand around all day and laugh about the incompetence
they don't care their gettin full scale for doing nothing. The head QC is a pressure vessel inspector he is not a cwi and has
no NDE experience . His only nuclear experience came from working on a submarine in the navy. He's scheduled to retire in
6 months and doesn't give a damn if the project ever gets built right or wrong. The Head QA knows nothing about welding procedures
or codes and doesn't want to be made aware of any problems concerning such. She's approving welding procedures without even reading them.
This contractor is going to have alot of explaining to do when the NRC comes in an audits there personel. Joey I thought you we re being sarcastic
has to wheather or not my conscience was bothered.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 05-30-2010 04:52

So Joe, what type of nuclear experience do you have??? And if you were six months away from retiring for good, wouldn't you have a similar non-chalant attitude as well??? Especially if these folks know that there's more to building a nuke than losing some grays over them the way you are!

Now take a step back for a minute and don't forget to breathe... Then look at everything one step at a time slowly, and without letting it crawl under your skin this time...
If you can't, then walk away from it, because inspection isn't always this way and this job is NOT a microcosm of what to expect at any inspection job from now on - CAPECHE???

So you walked into a clusterf@ck - So WHAT!!! Lesson learned, and the worst is over!!! So now you move one to better things, and not worry yourself anymore with these pukes. ;)

If I wasn't ill, I would love to see the look in their eyes once I announced my own arrival in that animal sanctuary!!! I would simply be singing:"The party's over now!!!" And tell everyone to from a single line if they weren't ready to accept real change and stand in line for their severance pay! ;)

I got such a nice retirement package that my older brother is doing his level best to get in on the package I have @ this retirement home, and he's being blocked at every corner by yours truly because he actually thinks that the two of us will eventually get along in the samw building once the dust settles for crying out loud!!!

Then we have my little sister doing an audible end run around me, or shall I say, attempting one using the guise that my older brother has emphysema and requires a cane to get around and meanwhile has not decreased his clockwork efficiency of each cigarette smoked on a daily basis, and has given me a radical approach to aiding someone to quit smoking via packing industrial grade cement in him orally until he finally quits!!! ;) ;) ;)

I mean I feel like al Pacino did in the last Godfather movie did for crying out loud!!! :( :( :( Here I am trying to retire with some sort of dignity, yet my sister is trying her level best to dump my big brother on me as if I don't have enough of my own problems to concern myself with!!! I'm not letting it happen Brother!!! Not during my final days!!! I'll un-retire and go to work in Kuwait, or some other land far enough away where my sister will not have a clue where I'm at!!! Trust me Joe! Retirement is overrated brother!!! I mean look AT ME!!! I'm not even a month out and everybody wants to jump on board this sinking ship, yet I'm getting off!!! :) :) :) Gee! Don't let the small sh!t get to you Joe!!! G out and have some fun because you only live once and even when you're ready to retire, you may end up with some unwanted guests trying to rain in on your parade for crying out loud!!!

If you run into similar circumstances, tell em all to PHUCK OFF AND WAIT TILL IT THEIR OWN TURN TO RETIRE!!! Keep your head up Joe!!! :) :) :)

In memory of the REAL HEROES WHO DIDN'T MAKE IT BACK AND ARE ON ETERNAL PATROL.
WHO ARE GUARDING THE DISTANT SHORES THEY SACRIFICED WITH THEIR LIVES FOR - SEMPER FIDELIS.
WHO Went up in the sky to sacrifice their lives for us so that we and others could live in FREEDOM!!! FREEDOM IS NEVER REALLY FREE!!! IT'S ALWAYS BEEN PAID BY THE SACRIFICE OF OTHERS WHO WERE WILLING TO KEEP THE DREAM, THE PRINCIPLE, THE VIRTUE ALIVE UNTIL IT WAS ACHIEVED AND CONTINUES TO BE UPHELD!

These same truths are being upheld by the Men and Women who have sacrificed themselves in both Afganistan and Iraq as well as many other places around the planet called "Mother Earth" in the name of FREEDOM... And for those who take that word so non-chalant at times, may I remind you how many have sacrificed themselves so that you could complain about how certain groups of peoples only now get the very basic humanly acceptable treatment, and remember that their sons and daughters, their nephews, their other relatives are also out there fighting for this Nation while being called "Illegal Aliens" who have chosen to fight for this country so that they can earn the right to become citizens also!!! If that isn't enough of a sacrifice ,then I give up in trying to find out what meets your so called standards when in most cases, the complaints come from the very same folks who never served day one in the Armed Forces of this Great Nation of ours!!!

So remember that many a so-called "Illegal Alien" has fought and fought real hard, to the point of performing the ultimate sacrifice,
so that FREEDOM WOULD REIGN ACROSS THIS GREAT LAND WE CALL: "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" in both the past, the present as well as the future!

GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY TO EVERYONE!!! :) :) :) Man did I ever have to get that off my chest today!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-30-2010 16:28

(5) outages at San onofre Ca , (2) outages Diablo Cayon, (1) outage Mesa Verde, 3 years working in a fab shop building Nuclear vessels.
6 months or 6 days Id still try and get it done right. If this were some chilled water line where the ramifications could be a little damage to some
reflective ceiling tiles or carpeting i wouldn't be so upset. It is the nature of this project and the amount of taxpayers money being thrown around
that pisses me off.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 05-30-2010 17:26 Edited 05-30-2010 18:10

Piddlysticks Joe!!! I have worked many, many more outages than that, and I helped build at the very least 24 or more different nuclear powered submarines Joe!! Including the first three Tridents!!!

That guy who's retiring with the submarine experience doesn't worry because he knows there's really nothing to worry about unless that is, he's as blind as a bat!!! I mean is there another "Davis Besse" in the making here in one of theses plants??? You have heard of that one eh Joe??? I mean after all, there are quite a few Nukes located East of the Mississippi for cryin out loud!!!

So what in the heck are all of these NCR's??? And have you written them all up in the tidy fashion the NRC expects you to have them written to yet??? In other words Joe, What in the heck is going on out West that is giving you so much Agida!!! C'mon now Joe!!! Spill the beans already, and explain to us Easterners what is going on yonder past them darn hills that block the ocean view on the left coast!!!

Btw, I pay taxes too and have done so for many, many years now, but will soon join the ranks of the retired citizens who also want to know why an inspector like you cannot get a word edge wise out on these Nukes that need some serious TLC, but get it out of your system dog gone it already because it's driving me crazy only reading bits and pieces of what so far is nothing Joe!!!

You need to describe the failures or conditions that would merit such alarms is this is truly what you're trying to do for the American Taxpayer!!! Otherwise, all you're doing is talking in circles here Joe!!!

Respectfully,
Henry

By joe pirie (***)

Date 05-30-2010 18:30

Well excuse me for taking my job seriously!!! 1400psi nitrogen lines being run thru sch 10 304L pipe. 3 1/2 " and 4" socket welds being used on 1400psi pipe
Flanges being used that are not to code .Failure to inspect any pipeing to the required codes.
Ruptured lines damaging equipment, failure to complete experiments due to piping failure, loss of human life,
release of radioactive material, explosion of the whole project if the nitrogen is not introduced to cool plutonium target chamber. there's
a reason this site is out in the middle of nowhere and until recently the NRC wasn't even allowed on the site. They don't want people to know what
is going on. I never claimed to be an expert on nuclear construction but i do know how to do a little research and find out the correct answers
as to code interpetation which includes asking the experts in this forum. The sad thing is if thing ever does blow up you and me will never even
hear about it . The equipment has been shut down for about 2 years now after the last accident that contaminated all the vessells and pipeing
that accident was never released to the public and any future failures won't be either. Even in the best plants in the world accidents can and will continue
to happen . I feel it is the responsability of every engineer, craftsmen and inspector to do the job to the best of their ability to try and minimize these catastrophies
from happening. Look at the BP oil leak don't you think it's crazy that they can't stop the oil from ruining our gulf coast. The fact that they had no plan in place
in case such an accident took place. Northrup Gruman having to recall 2 naval destroyers because of bad welds inspected by inspectors who didn't care
Remember the china syndrome, silkwood, this crap takes place every day and i for one am not going to be a part of it.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 05-31-2010 19:43 Edited 06-01-2010 23:55

Joe

Something is very wrong here if your "...there's a reason this site is out in the middle of nowhere and until recently the NRC wasn't even allowed on the site..." statement is correct. Even defense sites have some NRC oversight! You may need a lawyer. You may be involved in a continuing criminal activity.

The first post was titled "Engineers rights to change code procedures". At first, I didn't bother to respond, because many of the responses were correct as stated, but may or may not have been correct if more detailed facts were known about the actual circumstances that lead up to this post. I felt, as Henry did, that there was only a dribble of pertinent information being dragged out of you.

There are times an engineer of record can change the way a code is applied. Depending on the project, the legal jurisdiction, the contract documents, and the actual position held by the "engineer". He may, or may not, be allowed to deviate from codes, and contract requirements. When you are involved in nuclear work, the right to deviate is more limited, no matter who you are.

I know two people who raised sabotage/non-compliance type issues with the NRC, and one person who worked for a utility, and who was only peripherally involved in a dispute, and they all lost a fortune to lawyers and two of them lost their jobs. Instead of the alleged miscreants going to jail, two of these three had to worry about going to jail themselves. It sounds like you may be in danger of legal and ethical entanglements. Dragging this out and letting it evolve on the forum will be counter-productive at best. There are probably few Forum responders capable of giving you sound technical advice based on what you have leaked out on the Forum.

Joe Kane