welder shortage in America

Date 06-03-2010 14:35

We are in a "Catch-22" situation (good book, you ought to read it if you haven't).

Yes, there is an overall shortage of welders and many of us are in the mid -50's bracket. Not that many young folks have been interested in the trades overall - not just welding. The fear has been that mid 50's folks will retire without anyone that knows how to do what we do - so there's a push to attract and educate younger folks into the trades.

Now comes the downturn in the economy (relatively recent). There are good welders on lay off; they already have the know-how; they are reliable employees. So an employer looking to hire welders has a pool of talent to draw from. Any employer naturally want to use those folks that already have the training. Can't blame them - competition for work is fierce right now for the employer. The name of the game is: provide quality, schedule, customer satisfaction as efficiently as you can to stay in business. (Why is this important now instead of all the time? Good question - it has to do with surplus. We don't seem to worry about how much water runs down the drain when there is lots of it available. Should we? Probably - it would help keep us ahead of competition.)

So the Catch-22 is: we need more welders to grow the business, but we don't have enough to keep them busy, so we don't need more welders.
This won't always be the case - hang in there, be diversified, be ready. It will pan out for you in the long run.

As far as making it difficult for beginning welders - this is "Human Nature 101".
A lot has been written about differences in the generations. Good info to know but also a lot of hogwash - it all comes down to the individual person's attitude and aptitude.

We have had inexperienced folks show up that have great attitudes, good common sense, and are willing to "pay their dues". They are there when you need them. They get along well with others, they don't expect more than they know they deserve yet they are appreciative when they receive that. It's a pleasure to teach them the tricks of the trade. They are willing to try new things. They are willing to put in the extra effort to "help the team". They don't expect a raise before they earn it. Everyone of those folks that I have seen come to our shop is employed right now.
It works this way - the longer it takes for me to see your good qualities, the longer it takes for me to want to teach you anything more than the basics. And "fair play ain't got nuttin' to do wid it" - that's life. I had to play by those rules, so I expect you to also. My experiences are valuable to me - I don't want to waste them on you if you don't care about them.

The "take-away" is this: be the person that is reliable, eager to learn, and willing to wait patiently. All the rest will fall into place.

By js55

Date 06-03-2010 14:44

"We are in a "Catch-22" situation (good book, you ought to read it if you haven't)."

Read it. Maybe all of our young welders went runnng off to Sweden. :)

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 06-03-2010 15:11

Hey jds,
I would strongly suggest you read & re-read Chet's response several times as he has scored the bullseye. No one could have stated it any better.

My only addendum would be to also bear in mind that every company HAS to make a profit.....that is religion. That profit comes from a productive employee who gives 8hrs work for 8hrs pay, does not hesitate to query any unknown he has not experienced or understand, & will constantly suggest any method that will enhance that productivity. That profit is what keeps you working. These qualities are generally found with the more experienced weldors & thus their value has more substance that minimizes a company's time constraints to train them. I will say that a good employer will have the patience to look into a "newbie" to determine the level of "hunger" & personal nature that will reveal if that potential is there....that is what opens the door.

I can only suggest to the youngsters/newbies to take any position that is available in a welding, welding/fab shop, or a production shop just to get your "feet wet". Every company I have worked for in the last 45 years has given me knowledge....some small, others a wealth. It's up to you to find your path.

Denny

By jsdwelder (***)

Date 06-03-2010 17:04

I hear what you are saying and then some. I am not the one looking for employment (fortunately). I work for a welding school in the northeast and was writing about the problems I see some of our students face after graduation. The youth of today are different than we were. Just growin' up in a different world. I see alot of kids, as we all do, lazy and expecting the world at their feet. But I also see plenty that are not that way. I think too often the general public lumps all of todays youth into one basket of laziness and unappreciative. I tell my students that if you make a serious effort to stand above the rest, you will be noticed because people aren't expecting it. I know things are tough out there right now, but honestly I think most welders worth their salt in our area are working. At least that's what I've been seeing. I know alot of the country is hurting for work, but I had 5 employers call me last week looking for people. See the funny thing is 3 of those employers have been looking for months and can't find what they say is the right person. So to my point, wouldn't they be better off hiring someone with a proven attendance/punctuality record and positive attitude who may not have years of welding under their belt than to continue to search for the "experienced" person. I don't know. I know it's tough and school will never duplicate real world experience. I remember getting into this field 25 years ago like it was yesterday and it wasn't easy then either. I guess I just feel like these kids pay alot of money and invest alot of time to learn the skill and I would love to see all of them get good jobs. But then again, the struggles make you appreciate it more in the end.

By red devil 68 Date 06-03-2010 18:04

Hi jsd,
we have the same problems in Germany too, more than 60% of the welders are older 50-55 years. Most of the kids have no training, no education or they are to lazy, it's to dirty, to loud, bad paid,.....:-(
We also have this "Catch-22" situation, but nobody feels responsible for a change.
For the companys in Germany it's simple and cheaper to hire a welder from Poland, Czech, Russia (for $10 p.h.) or wherever than an inexperienced, (maybe unmotivated or discouraged) youngster (for $12-15 p.h.)

By 52lincoln (***)

Date 06-03-2010 21:41

amen

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-03-2010 21:54

The problem is that they want it ALL for $12.00 an hour. A young guy can bartend and make that kind of money.

By 52lincoln (***)

Date 06-03-2010 22:28

maybe thats part of the problem.the first thing that is talked about is the money(i know everybody needs to be paid)but,that being said maybe people might get the impression that u(young guys) dont have the passion or commitment all your about is the money.their im sure are lots of young guys who would like a chance that care about the job at hand that might be overlooked.
i would like to think im one of the guys who still cares about the job as well.

By Mat

Date 06-04-2010 01:18

Commitment was a hard lesson for me to learn up until recently.

10 months on EI sure straightened me out. I never want to go through that again!

By 52lincoln (***)

Date 06-04-2010 02:23

what is EI?

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-04-2010 12:26

Employment Insurance. (Mat is Canadian).

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-04-2010 16:11

There are some 20,000 to 30,000 union boilermakers (tube welders) out of work right now in the USA. There is no shortage of welders. There's a shortage of welders willing to work for LESS than they can get collecting unemployment.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 06-04-2010 17:44

I'll segway off this comment. I'm one of the young guys. Been welding since I was 15 and I'm 23 now. I didn't break $12/hr until I was working as an engineer. I'm serious. The best i ever got up to was a 10.50 building industrial ovens as a certified welder doing all stainless GTAW. In michigan minimum wage was 5.25 when I started working and I made it up to 9.50/hr working as a mig and tig welder at various shops. Some of it was regional, and also I mostly worked in factories and plants, not doing independent rig welding, or field welding. It was discouraging when I could make more doing what my friends did working as a server at a restaurant or being a shift manager at a burger king. I remember getting into arguments with my friends who worked at a popular restaurant and as they complained about people shorting them on tips, when you did the math they made $15/hr on a bad day. My bosses made it sound like I was privileged to be grinding welds, tacking joints and running beads for $8.50/hr However I stayed with it because I enjoy the field, got to play with machines after hours, and I was happy to receive work experience and fabrication experience. I was very tempted to go work in restaurants, but in retrospect I'm glad i stayed as I've accumulated at lot of arc time over the years and that has paid off.

The problem I see it is that there's a chasm of death. There's plenty of employers willing to pay some scrappy kid 8-10/hr to do production code work, but very few serious outfits willing to train up welders from the bottom, so you get this gap where any good paying job is closed to people without 10 years of experience and most people burn out or quit when they are getting trashed about for the same amount of money they could get stuffing fries in a box. The upside is that I've seen welding schools become more and more fulll, and I've known some kids who come out with 2 year degrees being able to start around 18-19 which is not bad in my opinion. There's a lot of dues to pay before you get anywhere in this industry, and there is going to be an increasing need for skilled tradesmen as the current workforce retires. Compared to other fields it takes a lot more training and tough work at low pay before you "make it" than in other fields.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-04-2010 23:17 Edited 06-04-2010 23:34

Well said. I worked as a welder for 8 years before I broke into the so-called "living wage" range (at that time around $14 an hour). I was 34 years old before I got into the high end (over $60K a year) and had been a welder for 13 years up to that point. I mailed (back then via US Post) and emailed hundreds of resumes, paid for my own training, applied for apprentice programs with all the metal trade unions, took every welding job I could get, etc. Worked for some pretty rotten outfits while hammering resumes out and going to night school. Moving from shop to shop, trade to trade, travel on my own dime, etc. It's wasn't fun and sometimes I feel I wasted my life in this trade that I love. I have a decent job now but the writing is on the wall. Looks like I'll be packing the bags again and relocating and I'm well into my 40's. This is not what I expected back in the late 1980's when I started in the trade.

It's not an easy trade to make a decent living. The burnout factor is huge, the work is hard and the rewards are few. Layoffs are longgggg. I'd love to see the stats for welders making over $60K a years vs. those who make UNDER $35K a year. I bet 80% of welders in the USA make less than $35K per year. I would suggest that the younger guys reading this seriously research the welding/metal fabrication trade before taking the plunge. It will be a long time before MOST of you are making good money. There are exceptions of course. If you get into a trade union and have connections, the proper training (TECHNOLOGY) etc. It pains me to say this as metal fabrication is all I've done since the 1980's. (tears in my eyes)

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-05-2010 00:40

Better be careful here or the educators and advertisers will take offense.
Welding and inspection has fed my family, put a roof over my head and helped educate my kids. I did not encourage my son to enter the trade and he has followed a different career path. I have worked for some good people some lousy people, but most are just indifferent. If I made or did not cost them money they were happy.
I kinda get sad when I read where again AWS and industry are looking at efforts to bring people into this trade. Really it is pretty simple, treat your people well. So few companies get this.
I have been paid a unbelievable amount of money for work and I quit because the person I reported to was a dick, and the guy that was over him would not do anything about it. I could have stayed, and three years later they promoted him. But I would have spent 3 years of my life miserable. I get a kick when I have interviewed for a job and the HR empty scrotum points out I will be a at will employee. I ask them how they feel about being a at will employer?
There will always be a need for welders in the US and if you pick the right end of it and are not afraid to hustle can keep your sock full. But finding a good company that will pay you well and treat you good, well good luck. I know they are out there. And if you do find one like that, do what ever you can to make that company successful. Hopefully they wont sell out to one of the dick companies and you piss away 25 years.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-05-2010 03:23

You mentioned you encouraged your son to follow a different career path. I see the same thing in the metal trade unions. The big shots like Business Managers, Union Presidents, etc are sending thier own kids off to college in areas that have nothing to do with the trades. Some members are still getting sons into the trade but these are usually troubled kids who can't make it in college and have other issues like substance abuse problems, behavior issues, criminal records, etc. It's a pretty sad state of affairs in the trade unions these days. How to use a fake urine drug test kit and pass a random are the most popular on-the-job Union training courses I've seen in the past 5 years. Everyone gets a passing grade!

By bruce69 (*)

Date 06-05-2010 14:38

I too would never encourage my child to have anything to do with the construction industry unless it was as an Engineer. In this world, people get paid for their brain and not their body. The corporate world has managed to defy the law of supply and demand in terms of skilled craftsmen. Wages are low and probably will only get worse for the people who do the actual work. I was a Journeyman Ironworker in the union before I went back to school and got my degree. Being out of work 3-6 months a year was no way to live for me. As an inspector out in the field I see young guy's I know have to be going through apprenticeship school and I just want to tell them to do themselves a favor and find another way to make a living because the local I used to belong to is dyeing a slow death. I never thought I would be back in the field once I finished school but I am. However, the day I can get out of the construction industry I will because the volatility of the last 1 or 2 years has reminded me why I got out of the Ironworkers. I need a good sales job like a lot of my friends so I can golf twice a week with clients and be in the bar by noon on Friday's.

By smithcd2208 (**)

Date 06-05-2010 22:28

I don't think he was saying he encouraged his kids to follow a different career path. He just said he did not discourage it. Sort of just let them figure out what they wanna do on their own. I'm sure if his kid wanted to be a welder like he is, he would have been fine with that as well and would have told him all about the advantages and disadvantages and the good and bad of the trade like he has written in his post. But i don't think he actively encouraged pursuit of a different career.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-06-2010 02:18

When my son was in high school he took Ag which is where the welding is taught in this school district. He became a decent welder. Even took a job the summer after graduation. The only thing I ever told him was it is a hard life and there are better ways to make a living. I have several friends that either are welders or come from the welding trade. None of their children have became welders. Most are like my son, have good ability but do not want to live the life their dad has.

I have talked to high school classes about welding and I am never negative about it. It has given me a good life. But it was not because of the "great" companies I have worked for. If a young person is interested in welding I point them in the right direction for training and encourage them. There are some good Jr Colleges in this area and they can get the training to become a welder at a reasonable cost. And being in the oil field there is a lot of work and entry level positions around. And $17 to $20 per goes a long way here. But I make sure the people I recommend go into the trade know the welding is just a path to get to a really good job.

This is not for the guys that rig up and chase drilling rigs or pipelines. You have to have some special substance abuse problems to go this route. Same for tankies and turnaround chasers. We have our issues!

Since I started welding and became a member of AWS in 1988 the industry and AWS has been trying to stem the losses in the trade. Within the next 10 years a lot of tribal knowledge in welding will be gone. Sure, some of it will not be missed. And the production types knowledge has been exported to low wage locations. What is going to be missed is the knowledge the guys doing repair, field fabrication, fitting, leading and directing projects have that the educators and advertisers have no value for. They seem to think this knowledge is passed along in schools or seminars or can easily be picked up as needed. The educators and advertisers do not understand the value of this knowledge thus they have no value for it.

I hate to be negative about this, but I do not see anything changing. What is industry, unions, educators and advertisers doing different this year than they have done last year, or 2008, or 2007, etc, etc, The shortage is getting worse. IUEA needs to realize the solution the the welder shortage is us older farts encouraging quality people to enter the trade and mentoring them as they progress.

Here is the BUT, we older farts have been tricked, lied to, discouraged, ignored by IUEA for so long, how will they keep us interested. That I do not know.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 13:04 Edited 06-06-2010 13:17

Welding is great to know as a hobby. It's very difficult to make a living at it. I wish AWS would stop pumping the "welder shortage" line. I really don't see a shortage of welders as all the trade schools are filled to capacity in my area and there is a waiting list. Most of these young people will find another line of work when they actually enter the job market and find they can't make a decent living welding. I am amazed at the young guys I see on the jobs that think they are going to make $100 an hour as an underwater welder or $100K a year. 99% make nothing close to these numbers and those that do will be living lonely lives in crappy hotels working 12 hour days, 7 days a week far from home. You'll have a wife and kids who will not see you for six months a year or more. I'm well into my 40's and my best year as a field welder was $88,000. I worked 7 days a week for months and was living in a hotel room on my own dime and yes, we are union. Then you get laid off for 4 months or more at a time and have to go beg the union bosses for crumbs. God help you if you fall out of favor with the union bosses. All it takes is one comment from the bosses and the whole union turns on you. It's a pack mentality and very tough if you don't have family connections coming in. Other good news is that almost ALL the union pensions are in serious trouble. Pension default and takeover by the PBGC is almost assured without a govermment bailout. I'll never see the numbers I've been promised.

The quality of the young guys I see in the union is pretty rotten. I've never seen it this bad. Drug abuse is off the charts. Pills and heroin are common these days. The smell of weed on the construction sites, half the crew drunk after lunch. Accidents are very high and the contractors are getting creamed with comp claims and lawsuits caused by all the intoxicated people. Many large union contractors won't even bid on jobs near me because they know the financial hit they will take. This is due to the accidents caused by the losers our union hall is sending out in the field these days. Again, it pains me to say this but it's all true. I've about had it. I've saved my money over the years and I'm willing to take a hit in pay to get out of this trade.

By fitter

Date 06-06-2010 14:10

Alright, I've had enough of your union bashing bulls-- t.I don't know where you live, but I've been around a little bit and either you are living in a fantasy world or you are a slug that nobody will hire.So where you come from all you are getting is juvenile delinquent drug headdumb fu--s.
All your jobs are filled with heroin using, pill popping drunks.You can't buy a rig and park it in your driveway? Maybe you should either don't buy the rig, move, or buy the rig and grow a nut sac.There's no way all this nonsense your spouting is true. Why don't you get out of the union and do something else if it is so bad.Is it a tough way to make a living? yes it is. If you are a good worker and show up on time every day ready to work, and are a welder, you should not be out that much. These are tough times. you do what you have to do. If you do not want to travel don't. you know going in that travel is part of the job.By the way, I'm not a agent or manager or president and am putting both my daughters through college right now. You are a tradesman. You work with your hands.you should be able to find something to do other than bash your union and piss and moan about everything.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 14:46 Edited 06-06-2010 14:54

I'm glad you are paying for your kids to go to college. Why not get your girls into the trade union? The trades are trying to attract more women these days. By the way, I assume you are a union fitter? Have you checked your pension plans funding levels? It's listed as "critical" along with 108 other union pensions. I just got the letter in the mail last week that my union pension is seriously endangered, our wages were lowered two dollars an hour to fund it and there is no work for available for close to 30,000 members. Here's the list. Anything below 80% is listed as ENDANGERED, below 65% is CRITICAL. Do you see yours here?? Perhaps Plumbers & Pipefitters National Fund listed at 54% funded???? I doubt you're going to see anything close to what the union crooks have promised you unless Obama and the U.S. taxpayers bail them out, which is unlikely. Enjoy!

Union Pension Plan % Funded
. Alaska Hotel & Restaurant Employees Pension Plan 79.70%
. American Federation of Musicians & Employers Pension 78.90%
. Teamsters Local 639 Employers Pension Trust 76.10%
. Producer-Writers Guild of America Pension Plan 75.90%
. Ohio Operating Engineers Pension Plan 75.70%
. Laborers District Council and Contractors Pension Fund of Ohio 75.40%
. Southern Nevada Culinary & Bartenders Pension Trust 75.40%
. Alaska Electrical Pension Plan 74.30%
. Alaska Laborers - Employers Retirement Fund 73.70%
. Electrical Contractors Assoc. of City of Chicago Union 134, IBEW Jt. Pension 2 73.70%
. Carpenters Retirement Plan of Western Washington 73.10%
. Automotive Industries Pension Plan 72.40%
. American Maritime Officers Pension Plan (2005) 72.40%
. United Mine Workers of America 1974 Pension Plan 72.30%
. GCIU Local 119B NY Printers League Pension Fund 71.40%
. National Elevator Industry Pension 71.00%
. Western Conference of Teamsters 70.60%
. Newspaper GUILD of NY the New York Times Pension Plan 70.50%

. Chicago District Council of Carpenters Pension Fund 70.10%
. District No. 9, IAM and Aerospace Workers Pension 69.70%
. Rocky Mt. UFCW Unions & Employers Pension Plan 69.50%
. Hotel/Casino - Summary 69.50%
. NECA-IBEW Pension Trust Fund 69.20%
. Central Pension Fund of the IUOE and Participating Employers 69.20%
. AFTRA Retirement Plan 68.90%
. Carpenters Pension Trust Fund of St Louis 68.60%
. MA State Carpenters Pension Fund 68.60%
. National Automatic Sprinkler Industry Pension 67.80%
. Midwest Operating Engineers Pension 67.80%
. Retail Clerks Pension Plan 67.70%
. Electrical Workers Pension Fund, Local 103, IBEW 67.50%
. Building Trades United Pension Trust Fund MIL and Vicinity 67.40%
. CWA/ITU Negotiated Pension Plan 66.80%
. UFCW Unions & Employers Midwest Pension Fund 66.70%
. Laborers Pension Fund 66.70%
. Carpenters Pension Fund of Philadelphia and Vicinity 66.40%
. UFCW International Union Pension Plan for Employees 66.40%
. Alaska Teamster-Employer Pension Plan 66.30%

. Steelworkers Pension Trust (2007) 66.20%
. Hotel Industry-ILWU Pension Plan 65.70%
. National Asbestos Workers Pension Fund 65.20%
. IUOE Stationary Engineers Local 39 Pension Plan 65.20%
. SEIU National Industry Pension Fund 65.00%
. Trucking Employees of North Jersey Welfare Fund Inc. Pension Fund 65.00%
. Massachusetts Laborers Pension Fund 64.70%
. California Ironworkers Field Pension Trust 64.50%
. Carpenters Pension Fund of Illinois 64.20%
. Automotive Machinists Pension Plan 63.80%
. NJ Carpenters Pension Fund 63.60%
. The Newspaper Guild International Pension Plan 62.80%
. Minnesota Laborers Pension Fund 62.40%
. Bakery & Confectionery Union & Industry International Pension 62.30%
. Laborers National Pension Fund 62.10%
. Operating Engineers Pension Trust 61.70%
. UFCW Unions and Food Employers Pension Plan of Central Ohio 61.30%
. UFCW Nothern California Joint Pension 61.00%
. Carpenters Pension fund of Western Pennsylvania 60.80%
. Newspaper and Mail Delivers - Publishers Pension Fund 60.50%

. Carpenter Pension Trust for Southern California 60.40%
. BERT Bell Pete Rozelle NFL Player Retirement Plan 60.00%
. Major League Baseball Players Pension Plan 59.60%
. Sheet Metal Workers Pension Plan of S. CA, Arizona and Nevada 59.50%
. NY District Council of Carpenters Pension Plan 59.30%
. SO CA UFCW Union Joint Pension 58.40%
. National Electrical Benefit Fund 58.20%
. Boilermaker Blacksmith National Pension 58%
. GCIU-Employer Retirement Fund 57.60%
. ILWU-PMA Pension Plan 56.90%
. Masters, Mates & Pilots Pension Plan 56.60%
. Wisconsin Carpenters Pension Fund 56.50%
. Electrical Workers Pension Trust Fund of Local Union 58 55.80%
. Automotive Mechanics Local No. 701 Union Pension Fund 55.60%
. IB of T Union Local 710 Pension 55.60%
. Michigan Laborers Pension Fund 55.30%
. PACE Industry Union-Management Pension Fund 55.20%
. Pipe Fitters Retirement Fund Local 597 55.20%
. Sheet Metal Workers Pension Plan of Northern Calif 55.10%
. Central Pennsylvania Teamsters Defined Benefit Plan 55.10%

. NY Hotel Trades Council and Hotel Association of NYC Pension Fund 55.10%
. Teamsters Joint Council No. 83 of Verginia Pension Fund 54.90%
. National Integrated Group Pension Plan 54.50%
. Plumbers & Pipefitters National Pension 54.50%
. Central Laborers Pension Fund 54.20%
. Iron Workers District Council of Southern Ohio & Vicinity Pension Trust 53.90%
. Carpenters Pension Trust Fund for Northern California 53.70%
. Bricklayers & Trowel Trades International Pension Fund 53.60%
. Western Pennsylvania Teamsters and Employers Pension Plan 53.10%
. Chicago Newspaper Publishers Drivers Union Pension Trust 52.90%
. OE Pension Trust Fund 52.40%
. Indiana State District Council of Laborers & Hod Carriers Pension Fund 51.70%
. NYS Teamsters Conference Pension & Retirement Fund 51.40%
. LIUNA National Industrial Pension Fund 50.30%
. Michigan Carpenters Pension Fund 50.20%
. Twin City Carpenters Pension Fund 50.20%
. Laborers Pension Trust Fund for Northern California 50.00%
. HERE Local 25 and Hotel Association of Washington, DC Pension 49.30%
. Central States SE&SW 48.50%
. Teamsters Pension Trust of Philadelphia and Vicinity 48.50%

. Operating Engineers Local 324 Pension Fund 47.30%
. Laborers District Council of W. PA Pension Fund 46.80%
. Iron Workers Local No. 25 Pension Trust Fund 46.40%
. Local 705 IB of T Pension Trust Fund 46.30%
. Building Service 32B-J Pension Fund 42.30%
. Carpenters Pension Trust Fund Detroit & Vicinity 41.40%
. New England Teamsters & Trucking Industry Pension 40.50%
. FELRA and UFCW Pension Fund 39.80%
. Local 804 I.B.T. and Local 447 IAM UPS Multi-employer Retirement Plan 39.70%
. Sheet Metal Workers National Pension Fund 38.00%

By bruce69 (*)

Date 06-07-2010 00:53

The ex-president of the Ironworkers International is currently in prison for embezzlement. While he is there he still collects $231,000 a year pension. Unbelievable. I've said before I come from a long-line of union members and believe they are what's best for America so I hate to see what is happening. I just was not going to go down with the ship. As soon as I got out I put my retirement into a Roth IRA in case something drastic happened to my local.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-07-2010 15:51

I did the same thing with my union annuity. Rolled it over into an IRA before they rob it blind. I can't get at the pension money. I would if I could. They are raiding everything (wages, annuity, raises, vacation fund etc) to prop up the pension and it's still not enough. Troubled times ahead for sure.

By PipeIt

Date 06-15-2010 10:28

I agree, I teach apprentices at our union at night been doing it for 15 years, and the ones that sound off like he does are pieces of ****, they need to look into their compact to find the root of their problem staring back at them!

By commonarc (**)

Date 06-15-2010 19:55

I grow tired of people who praise unions yet ignore the obvious corruption. Pensions are being looted and are going bankrupt, blank checks written to Democrats and union officials are living high on the hog while there is no work for the members. When you voice concern, you are called a whiner, troublemaker, etc and the union will try and destroy you. It's the true believers like you who are afraid to look in the mirror and see the problems within the trade unions. The fact is my pension is broke and I will never see it. Paid into it for close to 20 years and the letters keep coming saying it's getting worse.

By fitter

Date 06-15-2010 20:36

commonarc I am fully aware of union corruption. If you have read my other comments , I have said unions are not perfect.I do not know what union you are in. I am a union pipefitter and our pensions are hurting as much as anyone's. However I do not believe that they are being pilfered but as I said before, pension funds and annuity funds are driven by the stock market.I get statements to check and make sure what I have coming from contractors is put into my funds.Anyone with investments is hurting. I do not know how yours is run, but that is how mine is run. As far as a blank check to democrats, we have always supported politicians who are labor friendly. That's just common sense. Republicans are known to be not labor friendly. If your political priorities are such that you think that is a bad idea then I don't know what to tell you.I certainly do not agree with everything the Dems do, but my top priority is working and taking care of my family as I'm sure yours is as well.There is plenty wrong with unions and plenty good with them as well.Work is very slow right now for everyone, but it has been before and always bounces back.I look in the mirror and see a proud union member with 32 years and counting of being a member.You have every right to voice your concerns, but there is voicing a concern and then there is bashing everyone in a union, saying they are dimwits, drunks dopeheads tax cheats etc. Blaming all your troubles on unions and there members is not fair or right

By PipeIt

Date 06-15-2010 20:44

Your right on your front, I jumped into the middle of this thread without looking at all posts, I have been in for 23 years and am very pissed at this condition. I belong to the UA where our past General President who I hope is in Jail purchased a Hotel in Miami with Union Pensions and of course had resigned, I guess I am in denial it does suck to lose what we could have had. They've been trying to talk me into a management position but I do like to teach apprentices especially the few that still like to be challenged. I once thought pensions were sacred, but in the Wake of Enron and the Sub prime debacle I would have been better off burying it in my back yard.

Regards,

PI

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-15-2010 23:54

Here is one example of the problem facing the trade.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO RECRUIT YOUNG PEOPLE INTO THE TRADE???
These guy's do not give a hairy rats backside about the pension or corruption. They want to know how much can I make and how long is it gonna take to make top wages.
The trade is training welders the same way they have for 50 plus years. The new workers attention span is about the same as a Britney spaniel. The companies and unions are trying to make these workers look forward when they cant see into next week.
How is IUEA going to train and motivate these new workers? Whining and moaning about IUEA corruption and pensions turn these guys off quickly.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 06-06-2010 15:21

There is a welder shortage. A shortage of welders willing to take $10 per. I would have no issue with this as a entry wage except there are getting to be a lot fewer opportunities IUEA offers for wage scale advancement. Why would industry put or expand a business in the US when the same work can be done in a low wage location, and shipped for final assembly or fabrication in the high wage location.

The bridge in Oakland is a prime example. http://baybridgeinfo.org

Major components are fabricated offshore in China, and I will not go into the issues this has brought, and assembled in the US. Think of all the jobs, training, and experience that China has gotten by this project. All we wound up with was final assembly.

This is the future of welding. IUEA can say what they want, but these jobs are gone and are never coming back. The tribal knowledge is fading. And again, there will be local fabrication companies in high wage locations that can compete against low wage fabrication because of ability to compete in areas other than price. If you are a fabricator that competes on delivery, quality, innovation flexibility you will thrive. But these type of companies are not the kind that employ large numbers of welders. And these companies tend to embrace technology to keep the workforce low due to the fixed overhead of workers especially where wages and benefits are mandated by government. Investing in capital equipment makes better business sense than hiring workers. But the workers for these types of companies will be better educated and paid.

IUEA needs to realize this is where the future of welding is in high wage locations. But also the experience that is still available needs to be tapped. And this is something than needs to be addressed especially by the unions. They more than anyone else need to figure out how they can compete in the future and offer their member something. If a union is training the existing workforce for todays technology they are preparing their workers for being gone. If they are offering these opportunities and the membership is not taking advantage of it the members jobs are going to be gone to a company or location that will.

And the educators need to be sure the entry level welders know the basic skills of welding will never change, but the equipment will and if they are not capable of learning and re-training how to use the equipment they are not going to last. And offer realistic expectations for salary with they graduate.

For workers though, depending on one company to offer you a stable job for your working career is a fools errand. A lot can happen over 25 years and a lot of it is not good. The company of the future that will survive is one that invest in capital equipment and training its workers. They are clear up front they are NOT offering lifetime employment, but when the time comes the worker will be capable of getting another job with another company because their present employer has taught them. When opportunities come up for workers to move to a competitor, the company needs to encourage that person to take advantage of it. Who knows, that person my be able to come back in a few years and bring more and better training and a outside view of your business.

And workers need to get over having or being owed a lifetime job with one employer. Be willing to take chances when opportunities present themselves. Train yourself for the newest technology even if it means doing it on your own dime. If your company or union will not invest in you, get it yourself and leave the dummies behind. As a welder, a CWI will cost about what a 4 wheeler does. If you have a 4 wheeler in your garage, and are *****ing about lack of opportunity, your future opportunity is a depreciating asset in your garage. If you happen to work for a company that believes in investing in its workers, great. take advantage of it. But if you don't, invest in yourself and leave those deadbeats. Continue adding certifications and training to your resume. A CWI with NACE and a API or two is not a person that worries about a job. Time off, yes, but not a job.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 15:39

Interesting link about the bridge parts being fabricated in China. We are seeing mexican made boilertube components in the power plants these days. Like you said, all we do is install parts made overseas unless we have to fix thier mistakes, which is often.

By 52lincoln (***)

Date 06-05-2010 05:04 Edited 06-05-2010 05:06

man i hate reading this kinda of stuff but,your right all big companies care about is the all mighty dollar.they have no loyalty to there employees.the ceo with make his millions and move on.he dont give a rats a@@ about the people he steps on getting there.i work for a major phone company you just a # and a liability to them.

By NMWELDING (**)

Date 06-05-2010 06:13

You are exactly right about what you just mentioned. I took an early retirement from a major chemical company because I had my fill of seeing just that happen. They talk like they care about the working man,but they really don`t. I kept my portable welding business going all the while,and I`m glad I did.That`s what I have been doing soley for the last 5 years.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 06-06-2010 15:05

I almost wish the company I work for would give me that speech of how hard we working and we're doing so good.
All I feel is they just throw it in our face of how much they don't give a rats *** about us. I'm dieing to get away from this place I'm at. I wish they'd lie to us and tell us how great we're doing. Makes me wonder that dollars raise we got, they even treat us even worse.

By 52lincoln (***)

Date 06-06-2010 15:10

lol,ole fitter sure works for a different union then i work for.they are trying to take everything they can from us.im sorry, the company is trying to do that but,it seems the union is in bed with the company.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 15:22 Edited 06-06-2010 20:22

I hear you. I paid over $4900 in union dues last year. The part of my union package that pays the health insurance was almost $14,000 a year and the coverage is total crap. I could buy it cheaper on my own. It goes up every single year. The pension is broke.

My business manager (and probably yours) golfs every week while on the clock, travels to conventions in Las Vegas, attends union conferences in Hawaii and Marco Island Florida and stays in $300 a night hotel rooms while eating steak and lobster. All this while the members collect unemployment and the pensions go broke.

Our union supports a President who has shut down new and existing power plant construction, shut down off shore drilling & refinery expansion and supports Cap & Trade which means even less work if it passes. These are all steel, welding, pipe and metal fabrication trades that are getting killed by our so-called union leaders.

By fitter

Date 06-06-2010 16:33

I've got to make this quick, got a 1 o'clock tee time.Your pension and everybody in this country's pension is in the ****ter right now. Union bosses do not dictate your pensions worth, the stock market does.Were you promised a certain amount when you joined your local? were you promised that you would work 50 weeks a year?That you would never have to travel? I doubt you can truthfully answer yes to any of these questions My daughters are studying to be a physical therapist and a teacher. If they wanted to do what I do , they would be doing that. Now, I would like you to be a little more specific with your statements about power plants and refineries. Lets start with any power plants that Obama has had anything to do with shutting down. Then you can add the refineries. Names and locations would be fine along with when they were cancelled by Obama or any other politician.Off shore rigs are temporarily being halted until the mess in the gulf is fixed. Did Obama cause the spill as well.Site work has started a a number of sites for new nukes in this country.Our president which you apparently do not care for was instrumental in getting the site in Georgia a loan to start the ball rolling.Maybe you should spend more time and effort trying to find work than looking at everybody in the country's pension is worth and whining about everything. All right where's the first tee and what's the course record

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 20:05 Edited 06-06-2010 20:51

Here you go. Here's a list of scuttled coal projects. The Sierra Club says it's all because of Obama getting elected. Hope you enjoy your golf game. I know the officers in my union sure do.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Coal_plants_cancelled_in_2009
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Coal_plants_cancelled_in_2010

U.S. coal power plants scuttled, Sierra Club cheers
By Bernie Woodall

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Plans remain active for only 59 of the 220 coal coal-fired plants planned and in various stages of permitting since 2001, said Bruce Nilles, head of the Sierra Club's campaign to eliminate coal-fired power plants in the United States. In 2008, 24 coal projects were canceled, according to Sierra Club's count. This year, nine plants have been dropped. The rest are "on ice" and will likely never be built, Nilles said.

The Sierra Club wants existing coal-fired power plants to be replaced by cleaner power, but the U.S. Department of Energy's statistical arm expects coal to provide the largest share U.S. electric generation for years. New coal-fired capacity will be limited by concerns about greenhouse gas emissions and the potential for mandated limits, but EIA noted that existing plants will keep operating. He noted that the nine plants that have been scuttled in 2009 would have generated about 6,650 megawatts of power -- enough to serve almost 5 million homes.

Nilles scored the election of Barack Obama as a major victory for his cause, as reflected in changes at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Nilles hailed this week's withdrawal of a permit for the 1,500-megawatt Desert Rock plant in New Mexico and the pronouncement two weeks ago that CO2 endangers public health and welfare as evidence of a new EPA.

POWER PLANTS Cancelled, Abandoned, or on Hold:

Bethel Power Plant - Alaska
Matanuska Power Plant - Alaska
Healy Clean Coal Plant - Alaska
Kenai Blue Sky Project - Alaska
Ray D. Nixon Power Plant - Colorado
Unnamed Tri-State Plant - Colorado
Unnamed Xcel Energy Plant - Colorado
Buick Coal and Power Project - Colorado
Indian River - Delaware
FPL St. Lucie Plant - Florida
Glades - Florida
Polk Power Station Unit 6 - Florida
Seminole 3 - Florida
Stanton Energy Center - Florida
Taylor Energy Center - Florida
Taylor Energy Center, Alternative Proposal - Florida
Idaho Power Company IGCC Proposal - Idaho
Soda Springs Power Plant Project - Idaho
Dairyland Chickasaw/Mitchell Plant - Iowa
LS Power Elk Run Energy Station - Iowa
Baldwin Energy Complex - Illinois
Fayette County Economic Development Project - Illinois
Franklin County Power Plant - Illinois
Illinois Energy Group - Illinois
Marion Plant - Illinois
Marion Gasification Plant - Illinois
Elkhart Proposal (Corn Belt) - Illinois
Elkhart Proposal (Turris Coal) - Illinois
Elmwood Energy Center - Illinois
Rentech Energy Midwest Corporation - Illinois
Southern Illinois Clean Energy Center - Illinois
United Supply of America Coal Plant - Illinois
Crossroads Project - Indiana
Sullivan County Plant - Indiana
Sutherland Generating Station Unit 4 - Iowa
Great Plains Energy Plant - Kansas
Holcomb Expansion - Kansas
Westar Energy - Kansas
Kentucky Mountain Power - Kentucky
Thoroughbred Generating Station - Kentucky
Big Cajun II Unit 4 - Louisiana
Little Gypsy Repowering - Louisiana
Northern Lights - Michigan
Mesaba Energy Project - Minnesota
Kemper Project - Mississippi
Norborne Baseload Plant - Missouri
Bechtel / Kennecot Project - Montana
Comanche Park Plant - Montana
Highwood Generating Station - Montana
Nelson Creek Project - Montana
Roundup Coal-to-Liquids - Montana
Thompson River Co-Gen - Montana
Barrick Gold Plant - Nevada
Ely Energy Center, Phase I - Nevada
Gerlach Plant - Nevada
Toquop - Nevada
White Pine Energy Station - Nevada
Mustang Energy Project - New Mexico
Huntley Generating Station - New York
Cliffside second unit - North Carolina
South Heart Power Project - North Dakota
American Municipal Power Generating Station - Ohio
Great Bend IGCC - Ohio
Ashtabula IGCC Generating Facility - Ohio
Dominion Energy - Ohio
First Energy/Consol IGCC - Ohio
Lawrence Energy Center - Ohio
Lima Energy - Ohio
Hugo 2 - Oklahoma
LS Power Sequoyah Plant - Oklahoma
Red Rock Generating Facility - Oklahoma
SynFuel Enid Project - Oklahoma
Beech Hollow Energy Project - Pennsylvania
Gilberton Coal-to-Clean-Fuels and Power Project - Pennsylvania
Unnamed 1000 MW Project - Pennsylvania
Enviropower Plant - Pennsylvania
River Hill Power Project - Pennsylvania
Marion City Project - South Carolina
Pee Dee Generating Facility - South Carolina
Big Stone II - South Dakota
Twin Oaks Power Unit 3 - Texas
Intermountain Power Project Unit 3 - Utah
Hunter 4 - Utah
Sevier Plant - Utah
LS Power Sussex proposal - Virginia
Pacific Mountain Energy Center - Washington
Composite Power Project - Washington
Mountaineer - West Virginia
Western Greenbrier Co-Production Demonstration Project - West Virginia
E.J. Stoneman Expansion - Wisconsin
Nelson Dewey Generating Facility - Wisconsin
WP&L Portage alternative - Wisconsin
Buffalo Energy Project - Wyoming
Jim Bridger Unit 5 - Wyoming
Gillette Coal-to-Liquids Plant - Wyoming
Energy Expediters - Wyoming
PacifiCorp Sweetwater Project - Wyoming
Two Elk Energy Park Unit 2 - Wyoming
Basin IGCC plant - location undecided

By fitter

Date 06-06-2010 21:33

where is any of the info on these plants being canceled Obama's fault? Because some guy from the sierra club says so? Give Me a break.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 21:59

Obama appointed the EPA Administrator that implemented the new green rules that are destroying the metal trades. Can't blame this on Cheney and Halliburton but I'm sure you'll try. Maybe you can ask your Union president at the next meeting why all the power plants have been scuttled since Obama got elected? If he's not out golfing that is.

By fitter

Date 06-06-2010 22:22

Did I mention Cheney or Halliburton? I must be having a brain fart, I don't remember that.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 06-06-2010 18:18

I'm not in a union and the more I read about them I don't think it is for me

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 20:20

It's not all bad. The corruption part kind of stinks. Type in any trade union you can think of in a google search followed by the word "corruption, embezzlement or indictment" and you'll find a never ending list of union officials robbing the members blind. It never seems to end. Start with PIPEFITTERS:

2009- "embezzling more than $45,000 from United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 228."
2009- "five years probation on April 28 in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas for embezzling from Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 237 in Texarkana"
2008- "United Association of Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 1 in New York City, was sentenced in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York on January 30 for making numerous death threats"

2010-
Senate committee headed by Arkansas Democrat John McClellan freely used such words as "plunder" and "hoodlums," "gangsters" and "thievery" and "collusion," and "crime against the community." Major finding: "Union funds in excess of $10 million were either stolen, embezzled or misused by union officials over a period of 15 years."

By fitter

Date 06-06-2010 22:19

Electric Generation Using Natural Gas
Source: Sandia National Libraries

Natural gas, because of its clean burning nature, has become a very popular fuel for the generation of electricity. In the 1970's and 80's, the choices for most electric utility generators were large coal or nuclear powered plants; but, due to economic, environmental, and technological changes, natural gas has become the fuel of choice for new power plants. In fact, in 2009, 23,475 MW (megawatts) of new generation capacity are planned in the U.S. Of this, over 50%, or 12,334 MW will be natural gas fired additions. The graph below shows how, according to the Energy Information Administration (EIA), natural gas fired electricity generation is expected to increase dramatically over the next 20 years, as all of the new capacity that is currently being constructed There are also 18 utilities with applications in with the NRC for permits for new nuclear plants. Of these 18 sites half of them are for dual plants.So all though alot of coal plants have been cancelled, there are other plants that will be built. In Feb. of this year Obama gaurenteed a loan to a utility in georgia to build two nuclear plants and I believe site work is ongoing.I still do not see how the coal plant cancellations is Obama's fault.From what I read on your post, there were many reasons for the cancellations, mostly economic.By the way, I had a great time golfing. Thanks for asking.

By awspartb (***)

Date 06-06-2010 23:44

The key word in your article about Nat Gas power plants is "planned". NatGas is a huge CO2 producer. Chairman Obama wants windmills and solar panels. Made in Europe and China for the most part. NatGas is far too valuable to have be used as fuel for power plants and Chairman Obama hate NatGas as much as he hates coal. Like Chairman Obama said,

"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." (January 2008). Here's "The One" saying it in his own words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

True followers like you will never question your corrupt unions motivation, even if it puts you on the unemployment line. Last post arguing with an idiot. It's not worth it. Enjoy your promised union pension. It's toast.

By fitter

Date 06-07-2010 00:15

I will enjoy my pension thanks.arguing with an idiot? No wonder you get threatened. Whats with the chairman thing .I'm an idiot.I have no problem questioning anyone in my local, business manager, agents or anyone else. I still work. Unlike you who just goes through life complaining and whining about everything. T he fact that you are not working is every body else's fault.If you do not have enough balls to stand your ground and say what's on your mind to your union officials you have no one to blame but the guy in the mirror.What do think planned means? Do you think these utilities are going to spend all this money on permits and designs etc. knowing that the president of this country is going to not let the plant be built. I'm a idiot? I can't have a dialogue with a moron like you. The only thing that's toast is your brain.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 06-15-2010 23:35 Edited 06-15-2010 23:37

"There is no shortage of welders. There's a shortage of welders willing to work for LESS than they can get collecting unemployment. "

Amen to that....I have been looking for months. For any kind of production or shop work wages are definitely going down not up. If you find anything for 14hr or so (no matter what kind of work or conditions) the unemployment people look at you like you are insane for not jumping up and down and ready to lick a boot to get it! I am looking far and wide.....many contracting jobs are not even paying a per diem anymore. Who wants/will to drag up out of state for 20-25hr on your own dime? I am sure I will have to relocate if I want a decent shop type job. If I do how long can I expect it to last....that's a great ???? dbigkahunna said "For workers though, depending on one company to offer you a stable job for your working career is a fools errand. A lot can happen over 25 years and a lot of it is not good." I agree with that completely.....the business environment is way unstable, and I seriously doubt I would have confidence that any company (even big players like Boeing) would be there for me 10 years from now much less tomorrow morning. My last gig I really thought that I would stay there until I decided to retire......well it was not my decision.

I do not have a pension to lose (thats my own fault) but looking at the faces of friends while they talk about how much they have lost with their own, well it makes me feel slightly better about not having one. The "pension" I have lost is my experience in the metalworking/welding trade.....it seems it is not worth near as much as it once was. At 42 (with severe arthritis everywhere but my hands) it is pretty daunting to think about going back to Ironwork, Millwright or trying to break into the energy industry as a greenhorn. Anybody want to take bets on how long I might be able to physically keep that up?? Aerospace work I could do forever or until I am blind.....but it is very volatile right now ....so will I live out of a camper for 40k+bennies until I convince myself the job will last and sell the house and uproot the family? Yea maybe that is the best bet. It is not pride that makes me snub the 14hr job, it is simply practicality. I would be better off doing something else even for less money. dbigkahunna spoke of getting certs and your CWI .....again I agree completely. When I am financially able or can get a company to foot the bill I definitely will pursue it. The whole economy and everything we are use to is rapidly changing, I would not expect it to change back to anything familiar. I love welding/fabricating/machining....but my lifetime investment seems to be coming up short in every way but memories.

anyway
my $.02
Tommy

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 06-16-2010 00:23

Senate committee headed by Arkansas Democrat John McClellan freely used such words as "plunder" and "hoodlums," "gangsters" and "thievery" and "collusion," and "crime against the community." Major finding: "Union funds in excess of $10 million were either stolen, embezzled or misused by union officials over a period of 15 years."

After all of that.....I thought this was funny, what's that old saying, that the pot calling the kettle black or something like that. A senator calling somebody else a hoodlum, ganster..., ok then.