By J Hall 
Date 06-03-2010 01:28
Edited 06-03-2010 01:30
They are the wacko's that have the time and money to set the stage for the rest of us..
Here in South Dakota, they were going to build a refinery. Good deal right? there was a bunch of old people saying that it would change the landscape they were so used to looking at.....
The Lib's and the freaks in Hollywood have the rest of us outnumbered and running scared.
Lucky for us we have Obama to fix it all up real good.... Like helping us lose our proposed coal fired electric plant and causing the cancellation of an expansion of the existing plant.
Thanks, Democrats.
Unsitely they say. I heard about that off the coast of Florida, it would ruin the view. Aren't the rigs 20 miles offshore? Don't drill, don't build, then all the lefties will be wondering why the car dealer is selling feed and the newest 2015 buggy, horse extra. They want an environmental disaster, wait til they have 150 million horses crapping all over the place cause we can't drive automobiles anymore.
Honestly now.... Internal Combustion Engines are the most Over-Developed '50s technology out there...We have had the capability to move beyond HydroCarbon based fuels for DECADES, but "Big Business" just won't let go because it is too lucrative.
If we harnessed all the "Free" Energy out there - Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Wave, we wouldn't need to burn another hydrocarbon for energy or heat.
Geothermal (Heat Mining) is probably the best thing out there for the heating of homes and shops.
In a perfect world, we wouldn't "Need" to do any of the damage we are doing to the planet - This BP debacle is a PERFECT Example..... But this ISN'T a Perfect World.
I am no Tree Hugger, or Environmentalist, but I DO struggle to understand WHY things have "Stalled Out" and we are stuck being Slaves to Petroleum Products.
Now, before any of you set off to Flame me to a Crisp, I DO understand the "Big Picture" of things, and the Millions of people Globally that are Directly, or Indirectly, employed by the Petroleum Industry... And I DO understand how money makes the world go 'round.... I have spent my entire Adulthood in one service industry or another, and I spent over 10 years transporting Drilling Rigs, Service Rigs, Testing and Production Equipment, and Rental Equipment for use in Oil & Gas Exploration, as well as Hauling Logs and other commodities... I KNOW where my "Bread and Butter" has come from... but it has always dogged me in the back of my mind that there MUST be a BETTER Way to supply the energy needed to support the world.
Sit back and think about it with an OPEN MIND - From Start to Finish - Starting with Clearing the Land, through Transportation of equipment to the site, through Exploration, through Pipelining, and Refining, through transportation to the pumps and the end user... Look at HOW MUCH we WASTE (Hydrocarbons converted into Fuel, Oil, Lubricants etc) in the process of securing MORE Hydrocarbons.... The cycle perpetuates and feeds itself... and it is never ending....
Now, if all this Oilfield Exploration were to be phased out over the next few decades (Big Business ISN'T gonna go down without a Fight) there would STILL be work for Skilled Tradespeople in the manufacturing and maintenance of the newer, and More Efficient Technologies... We just wouldn't be damaging the environment the way we are.
Personally, I wouldn't mind having my Ford Super Duty retrofitted with a clean Electric System that eliminated my use of Gasoline, nor would I mind using an Electric, Inverter based welder for portable work instead of the Gasoline, or Diesel powered welders available now...
Awwww CRAP - I guess I DO sound like a Tree Hugger.... Sorry about that.
Bottom line is, we ALL have Bills to pay, and mouths to feed... I just think that we could be doing things that are more positive and environmentally responsible while achieving those goals.
Your Mileage may vary... This is just MY take on things.
Have a Good Weekend Everyone.
You need to learn a little more about physics, it isn't as easy as You think to replace hydrocarbon based energy.
Awww Dave! Don't be so hard on him buddy! :) He's just sharing his feelings with us!!! :) :) :)
Kind of choked me up for a microsecond or two!!! :) :) :) ROTFLMFAOAAA!!!! :) :) :) Just kidding Jason! ;)
You have a nice weekend also pal! ;)
Respectfully,
Henry
Thank you Dave, I will keep that in mind.
I'm not sure what would be so different in your world than mine, but for ME - Just about everything around me that goes "BANG" could go "BUZZ" overnight, and it wouldn't change my lifestyle one bit.
Again, Your mileage may vary.
I take no offense to your comment, nor do I offer any in return.
Henry,
Glad you enjoyed yourself....Well... For a Microsecond or two anyway LOL
I have enjoyed your posts since I first started reading threads on this board, and then later became a member. The one that impacted me the most, was "I always dreamed of retiring brefore 65!!".... Your Strength, Courage, and Iron Resolve in the face of Adversity are the things Legends are made of.... Even though you and I have never met, I can tell that you are a Man than I would be PROUD to know...
God Speed on your Journey.
Apologies for getting off topic - I do not believe in leaving things left unsaid....
I guess...........with as you have said.........no offense taken or intended........WHY do we need to "can" hydrocarbon based fuels? It's plentiful; relatively cheap, and WORKS. So why abandon it? The cutting edge of technology is usually covered in blood......proven technology is not inherently bad.
Just tossing out ideas... All 5 of the energy sources I mentioned are "Free" in that once the equipment to harvest it is manufactured, no energy is consumed in it's collection.
Power Generating wind turbines - Build it, Wind spins it... All we have to do is maintain it.
Solar panels - point them skyward, sun does the rest.
Wave & Tidal - uses "Motion of the Ocean" to create electricity... Tide goes in and out Everyday...
Geothermal (Heat Mining) The Earth's core is said to have about 2000 Zeta-Joules worth of Energy... The world uses about .5 Zeta-Joules a year, so right now, the Earth is storing enough energy to heat & power the world for 2000 YEARS.... Now, when you couple that with the fact that the Sun heats the Earth (Infra Red Radiation) everyday, Geothermal emerges as a never-ending energy supply... As long as we have the sun that is.
I don't propose that the world changes overnight.. But it is nice to get people to think about alternatives... Just because it is the accepted way, does not mean it is the BEST way.
I am sure that if things were to change to alternative energy sources, that there would be ample jobs for skilled tradesmen for generations to come...
Not to keep pounding away on the mess that BP is dealing with, but after all the loss of life, and damage to the environment, don't you wonder "Why are we DOING this?"... Just a little?
Like I said in a previous post, I spent over 10 years hauling Oilfield Equipment... I have seen what happens on rig moves... Some that died were just stories that I heard about, others were fellow truckers, one was the son of close friend.
The one that hit me the hardest was a 19 year old young man that I took under my wing, and treated like a little brother... He died a gruesome, horrible death. I was out of province when it happened, but the driver he was piloting for regarded "Marcy" like another son... Rod has NEVER been the same since.
I understand your sentiment towards new technology, but we have enough "Blood on our Hands" already...
Again, NO Offense intended... Just the view from where I sit, and from what I have seen.
My cousin's house uses "geothermal" heating & cooling, but in reality it is a groundwater coupled heat pump. Well water is 52 degrees F, too cold to heat with and not cold enough for direct use in air conditioning, but as a heat sink/source for a heat pump it does work, but still takes plenty of electricity.
One of My friends has a house in California. He has just had a solar PV setup installed. They are still tied to the power grid, it is not a storage system. After all the tax incentives, it cost $40,000 US out of pocket, and has a 20 year projected payback at California electric rates [rather high, the more You use, the more it costs] and under California laws governing the price payed for generated power [favorable to the consumer, unfavorable to the utility]. This figure asumes current prices for the 20 year period, but includes nothing for maintainance of the pannels or inverters.
I live in Pensylvania. We have been using solar water heating for the last 30 years. It works effectively about 180 days out of the year. I had to replace the storage tank/ heat exchanger a few years ago. Other systems installed back then that I know of have been scrapped, as they needed service but the owners didn't consider it cost effective.
There was a windmill near Reading Pa. installed in the early 80's [I think]. It seldom turned, We could see it from the lake We sailed on. Turns out it was a poor location, as are most places. The gear driven units have been extremely problematic. The direct drive generators do show promise in places with reliable winds.
Harnessing tidal power would be great, if You were on the Bay of Fundy. Are You aware that some places, like the Virgin Islands, the tide only changes 6"?
Most of the alternatives do not provide constant or reliable power. The big problem is that there has yet to be invented an efficient method to store large ammounts of electrical power. For a utility company, this is a huge issue. You have to be able to meet the demand, day night wind or not. Large power plants, nukes especially can't throttle up and down in a short timeframe. Where I live ther is a pretty large nuke power plant, but oil fuled gas turbine generators are still used for peak demand.
Efficient, compact & light weight electrical storage is the problem holding back electric cars & trucks. Lead acid batteries are about 80% efficient, that is pretty good, but the size & particularly the weight are killers.
Photovoltaic pannels and batteries are not environmentally frindly items to manufacture, but the tree huggers don't mention it in the same conversation as alternative energy.
That is enough rant for tonight.
Not a "Rant" at all Dave...
Thank you for providing your personal experiences in this conversation. I would agree that more R&D would be needed before these Alternative Sources of Energy were to be brought online... They would have to be reliable, and cost effective, for sure.
I will be travelling back to Prince Edward Island later this fall for a vacation (My wife is from there) and I will try to get up to the Wind Power Interpretation Centre at North Cape again... Fascinating stuff really... They (PEI) are making strides in bringing Direct Drive Wind Power Generation Wind Mills to the forefront as a source of revenue... There are a large number of Generators being brought online, and tied to the US Grid, and the power is being sold to the USA - Not sure which Utilities Company specifically though...
When I was down there last year, they had just set up 3 large Wind Mills outside of Kensington, to supply the locals.
On a side note, there are already Wind Farms in Central and Southern Alberta as well.
There are Wind Farms under development in Cape West, and the North Cape (Windiest part of the island) as these area have wind activity pretty much 24/7 and 365.
I am not sure of all of the manufacturers that have supplied equipment recently, but the North Cape Wind Interpretive Center showcases Vesla V-45 and Vesla V-90 units.
I, by NO means, have "All the answers" for a subject like this, but I view this direction, as the Natural progession for the future.
Thanks everyone for your comments, I find all of it interesting.
Have an Enjoyable, and SAFE work week.
I got the idea Jason; and thanks for talking about this logically!! I am all for developing REAL, useful, economical technologies for electric generation. None of which is much of a threat to the internal combustion engine, and that's fine with me. Ironically; some of the LOUDEST greenies about oil are also against wind farms; even offshore wind farms. I HATE talking about this with certain friends and family because they start foaming at the mouth and just can't have a conversation. That said; if oil/gas/coal with all it's incumbent problems (both real and perceived) is the most economical path; I am not for going broke feeling green.
No worries Boss... I come to these forums (when I have the time) for recreation, and enjoyment... Not to stir up stuff.
I am not a "Fanatic"... I am NOT here to Preach to anyone about ANYTHING... I just enjoy discussing topics like these to get other people's perspectives on them.
Dave's experiences, for example, are invaluable to me - Gives me lots to think about.
Maybe a more "Middle of the Road" model would be a better goal?
I submit that if we, as a Modern Society, could ramp up harnessing and usage of the "Free" Sources of Energy , and Decreased our Dependancy on Fossil Fuels, it would be advantageous to all parties concerned, and for generations to come.
I don't know why Tree Huggers would have an issue with Wind farms, Land Based, Or Off Shore? Must just be nutty, and looking for something to squeal about.
I agree 100% that I do not wish to go Broke for the sake of "Being Green" either.
Thanks for the response.
I'm not a total greenie, but I like renewable sources to supplement our energy needs. I would love to see us use variable pitch bladed hydro-electric generators on rivers with tides to capture the power no matter which way the water is travelling......those currents are strong and there was no need to dam up the river to ruin the fish spawning rituals.
But, I agree, Oil is going to be in our future for a while longer, so we need to make sure we have safer ways of drilling for it.
I have a question as to how this disaster happened. Has this ever occurred before? Seems to me with the thousands of oil rigs (many in the North Sea and drilling in deeper water than the Gulf), this type of leak must have occurred before. Was the wellhead at the seafloor missing something?
