Bob:
The following is my opinion only.
Many potential CWI's are under the impression you simply sit the 40 hour seminar and they are entitled to pass the exam at the end of the week. This has been discussed previously in this forum. Many of my former students have taken your seminar and found there is no way all that information can be assimilated in one week. About 25% of my students have taken the seminar and test and failed [CWI scores]. Only one of my students who has taken your seminar has yet to pass the exam. Up untill last year I had a 100% passing rate. Not any more. Some of my students got a little info under their belt and quit the class, but failed the exam.
There are also complaints from the professional communities (engineers, architects, etc.) that shelling out $1600 (or whatever it costs these days) to the AWS and receiving a certificate and stamp is flooding the market with unqualified-certified inspectors. I agree with this to a point. I have run into many CWI's who honestly don't have a clue what they are doing. I'm sure this is news to you, but I lost count how many CWI's can't generate a simple prequalifed WPS, or a WPQR or PQR. Interpreting the code? Trying to be a policeman on the jobsite instead of an inspector? Selling documents that require a CWI stamp? The list is almost endless.
I have taught CWI prep modules (using my own training materials-no copyright infringment here!) in the past and I am currently teaching a module for one of my clients staff. Most of my students enjoyed the hands on, practical excercises we do instead of reading about it from a training manual or listening to an instructor rattle it off nonstop in a classroom. We get dirty in my class. It is real-time education. Personally, I enjoy teaching those who WANT to learn, the rest are a pain in the ...
This topic has been discussed in this forum - this is an acquired skill, not a class and certificate mill. Does the AWS actually verify the information on applicants paperwork? I think the thought of popping any amount of hard earned $ has now morphed into the "I want it now" mindset many have these days. Possibly candidates want the certificate without the training these days. The test questions and answers can be bought by anyone who has the AWS seminar textbooks. Where does the education come in?
It appears that way on the jobsites...
I'm sure this post will attract a wide range of comments by forum users.
DGXL
SCWI/CWE
Quoted from DGXL:
There are also complaints from the professional communities (engineers, architects, etc.) that shelling out $1600 (or whatever it costs these days) to the AWS and recieving a certificate and stamp is flooding the market with unqualified-certified inspectors. I agree with this to a point. I have run into many CWI's who honestly don't have a clue what they are doing. I'm sure this is news to you, but I lost count how many CWI's can't generate a simple prequalifed WPS, or a WPQR or PQR. Interpreting the code? Trying to be a policeman on the jobsite instead of an inspector? Selling documents that require a CWI stamp? The list is almost endless.
Amen brother! And, if you try to bring this up, you get beaten down, as if being a CWI is a right from God, not to be questioned. I have brought up questions about the quality of inspection we see on a week to week basis, and the response is always the same. And, over half of the welders that work for me ARE inspectors! I enjoy harsh inspection, it improves the welding, limits the number of companies we compete with, puts everyone's prices in a narrower range and the men who work for me can work to very high standards, but fair, evenhanded and equal inspection practice is hard to find in our experience.
Comments heard, by me personally, this year from CWi's: "I can bust any welder on any day, it's up to me if your guys work or go home"...... "As long as "Frank" (not his real name of course) buys us dinner then his welders will be O.K.",(wink), ....... " Keep that ice chest on your truck stocked with cold coors light, and everything will probably shoot just fine". That's from this year, not the last 20 years.
Say what you want, but the level of professionalism exhibited in the field by CWI's can vary from top notch to immoral, in about 5 minutes and 5 feet. And the comment about buying documents with a stamp hits home big time! I walk off before I stoop to imoral levels of behavior and this has cost me a lot of money. What a rant, all true tho!
My observation from 20 years in the field.
And Gerald is right on about Bill Gates! : )
regards,
JTMcC.
Bob,
I would tend to agree with most of the points made by DGXL, especially the fact that some students have the impression that the five day seminar is all of the training they need to pass the examination.
I have never understood, given the advance registration for the examination, why AWS does not send the student all of the seminar materials for review. I have advised many people, including some in this forum, to use the seminar as a polishing tool to refine the knowledge they posess. I have witnessed and heard countless stories of students who are reading a hundred pages or so each night after the classes to stay current with the material. Retention has to be very low under these conditions.
Most of the people I know that do take the seminar, borrow the seminar materials and study at their own pace, maybe for six months or so. (it would be really expensive to purchase ahead of time the materials you receive on day one).
I hope you get some good input on your questions.
Bob,
I agree with the two above posts to a certain degree also. I did in fact go through the AWS seminar under Gene Hornberger. I was able to order the books ahead of time from AWS and studied on and off for about six months prior to the seminar along with working along side a CWI with loads of experience. I will say that the amount of info thrown at you in the week is more than most can chew and digest. Simply suppose the Test was given on a Sat. six weeks down the road following the seminar instead of the following Sat, what would be the passing rate then? For the one's who wanted to learn and gain something from the seminar, I feel they may actually do better given more time. However, those that are there for the quick fix, I'm not so sure would stand the "test of time" as it were. I'm glad I attended the seminar, as it did prepare me for some of what was to come(the exam and the world that awaits beyond the exam). The reality of some of DGXL's post stings alittle as I have not always had the confidence in some interpetations of the codes and continue to rely on this forum and other professionals that participate to help. I have the utmost confidence in some of these that post in this forum and regard their opinions highly. Experience on the other hand cannot be gained if you never get out there and work, and how do you work without the certification? I must admit that the experience so far has nothing but sharpend my skills as an inspector. I see things in documents that other CWI's have done, including my own that were not correct by code. It hurts alittle to have to go back and fix documents that you made mistakes on, however the lessons learned usually stick and are not repeated. To answer your question, I'm not completely sure what the reasons your attendance is lower than the past. The seminar is benificial to those that are willing to learn as DGXL has stated about his classes. There is a post or two about the quality of inspectors and most may feel that the cream will rise to the top and the rest will be weeded out as time goes.
John Wright
For what ever it's worth, I did pass on the first time.
John Wright
Hi Bob!
I cannot speak for everybody but, I know that for myself, cost is the primary reason for not taking the seminar... Some people can afford the costs and some people's costs are paid by the companies they work for... There are other organizations and institutions that offer similar seminars at less expensive costs... Some people are in such dire financial straits that they not only cannot afford the seminar or the exam!!! I would like to take the seminar and the exam but, because of the fact that I can no longer work in a production environment as a pipe welder/fabricator or land a full time teaching position without a CWI/CWE due to my disabilities I cannot afford the costs:
(Liver Transplant/osteonecrosis/permanent facial scars & joint damage in left knee and right hip due to being a victim of an assault in 1986, coming out of a NY City subway station on my way home from work).
I'm trying to get the state (PA) Office of Vocational Rehabilitation (OVR) to help me in paying for the AWS seminar and CWI/CWE exam but, they are slow as most bureaucracies usually are so, I have to be patient...
I have previously taught welding technology in four different states for about nine years on and off. Now, I can only teach part time and rarely at that because of my disabilities and the amount of money I am allowed to make according to social security's rules for people collecting S.S.D.I benefits (I used up my veterans education benefits)... In other words, I live on a fixed income and any extra money I make pays for my car expenses and any extra medications that I have to pay for out of pocket!!! I apologize for explaining my situation to you as you were only looking for some insight as to why more people do not attend the seminars for the AWS CWI/CWE exam but, I felt the need to do so.
I believe that I could land a job teaching full time now but because more institutions require a current CWI/CWE besides experience and education, I am very limited in making the transition to full time employment as a result of not having these credentials also...
I know that I have alot to offer but, I strongly believe that because I do not currently hold these certifications, this is the primary reason for not being able to secure a full time teaching position at the present time...
I already talked to my local AWS section (Pittsburgh) fellow members and officers but, they do'nt seem to be so helpful as they claim they would be when I initially approached them for assistance. I go to all of the meetings as long standing member of the AWS but sometimes I feel like an outsider being originally from New York city and all, even though I've been living in Pittsburgh for the last 6 yrs... Anywho, I believe costs are an important factor as to why more people do not attend the seminars not only for the AWS CWI/CWE exam but also for alot of the other seminars that the AWS offers. Scheduling could be another reason also - as are the locations chosen to have these seminars whereby travel costs on top of the costs of attending these seminars make it cost prohibitive to attend...
Any suggestions as far as helping me get the resources to ultimately earn a CWI/CWE so that I could get on with my life would be greatly appreciated!!!
Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Thought I would add a few more comments to this post as it does have my interest.
I could not afford the seminar in 1991, I probably could not afford it 2003. It's not just the cost of the seminar, most of us have to pay the fees out of our own pocket, it's not paid by the company. Then there's a week off without pay to add to the financial impact. I studied on my own for about 1 year before I sat the exam. I did take NDT classes to enhance my knowledge. Even these were broken down so they would be within my budget although I could have SAVED $ if I took [for example] MT and PT together instead of as seperate classes. The NDT classes through the local chapter of ASNT are very cost efficient and the books are very affordable. Why aren't AWS's? The ASNT classes are also spread out over approximately 12 weeks or so. This gives you time to retain material and prepare for their final exams which are typically a major portion of your final grade.
The cost of certification, renewal, exams, books, etc. from AWS really has gone throught the roof. I hear this everyday from inspectors and long-time AWS members. Global Eng. Docs isn't helping either. Maybe another reason attendance is down. I let my membership expire after XX years, for several reasons, I only renewed so I could get a break on my SCWI/CWE renewals. But I will not renew my membership next year.
It is possible AWS has saturated the market with inspectors. It happened here in So-Cal a few years back with ICBO-SS&W inspectors. The hourly rates tanked. ICBO classes were everywhere at one time [cheap], now only a few are teaching these classes.
Bob,
I hope your going to post a follow-up. This is an interesting topic for sure, but how about some info as to how AWS tends to deal with it? (Is the cost for training and certification going up yet again?)
Hi DGXL!
Thanks for giving me an alternative like the ASNT!!!
I'll have to visit their website in order to find out where their local chapter is situated in the Pittsburgh area...
This will definitely help me with OVR in keeping their funding allocations for me local which is what they strongly suggested so, again thanks for posting your experience in here!!!
Funny how Bob has his e-mail address hidden which strikes me as being odd for someone that's the AWS Corporate Director of Marketing...
I have my own security reasons for not typing my real name in my posts and replies but then again, my e-mail address is available and I do'nt even work for the AWS in any official capacity other than recruiting new members!!! Most of them being student members for which I know that most of the time, I do'nt even get recognized by at least this Pittsburgh section when I signed up quite a few last year!!!
So Bob, one thing that the AWS can start to do to help their members feel welcome and to feel that they are trully a part of something that's in their best interest; is to make them feel welcome!!!To make us feel that you'll be there for us when we need that extra helping hand in order to trully help us in advancing our skills and our confidence in our and not your organization!!!
Instead of making us feel as if we've got scratch, claw, to feel so embarrased about not being able to afford these seminars and sacrifice so much of our hard earned money if it's even available so that a few of you in Corporate look like you've got the pulse of your membership because in reality, nothing could be further from the truth!!! To insult our intelligence instead of trully rewarding us for having the intelligence to challenge your own assumptions without the fear of retribution is what real cooperation and understanding is all about between the rank & file and Corporate!!! The REAL REASON IS because CORPORATE is nothing more than a moneymaking machine and the fact that there is no real representation especially if you do'nt belong to any of the "Clicks" from the section level all the way up to corporate level reminds me of belonging to a LOUSY union!!! Do you really want to know what you can do ??? tell everybody in Miami that they've got to stop acting like a bunch of prima-donna's and start helping out the members that really would like to stay as members but, they can no longer afford to pay their dues that are increased just about every year, they can no longer afford to buy the available reference books, the ever increasing costs for welding codes, the ever increasing costs for certification, etc.
Your membership is what makes you great!!! not your ever increasing costs!!! You keep this up and before long you'll be asking us where did all the former members go??? Why??? BECAUSE YOU MEANING CORPORATE, NEVER REALLY LISTENS OR ACTS ON BEHALF OF THEIR MEMBERSHIP!!! TELL THE REST OF CORPORATE TO ACT ON BEHALF OF THE ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP!!!!! NOT JUST FOR A SELECT FEW!!! You know - like the new Automotive and Auto-aftermarket boards that was decided by the so-called"HIGHER - UPS"!!!
Why did your attendance waiver this year at the annual convention???
I'll tell you why, because of the ever increasing COSTS!!! By being out of touch with your entire membership and catering to only a select few!!!
I know I'n going to hear about my remarks but, heck for what I've been through in my life - I do'nt scare easy!!! SO WHAT!!! WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO THAT YOU"VE ALREADY HAVE DONE ALREADY TO ME - CANCEL MY MEMBERSHIP???
GO AHEAD!!! IT'S NOT WORTH MUCH ANYMORE, ANYWAY!!!!!
I'm not going to sacrifice anymore of my daily prescription medication amounts just so I can renew my membership which btw, I did last year!!! BTW, Whatever happened to the publication "American Welder"??? Did the AWS conclude that it was taking away from it's profit margin??? Even though technically, the AWS is a Non-Profit Organization or as our treasurer was quoted; a "volunteer based society"??? Do the Scholarships the AWS offers have to be exclusive only to younger students only??? What about us so-called "old timers"???
I've paid my dues for many years before these students and all I get is a lousy pin??? Darn Right I'm MAD AS HELL!!! Corporate better start listening and acting on behalf of your membership otherwise, you'll start asking why so many of us decided not to renew or attend any of those seminars!!! Bob, You asked the question so, you should've expected some rather blunt responses!!! I'm sick and tired of keeping my mouth shut and going along with what I see is transformation of the AWS into being nothing more than a money making machine!!! I know that alot of money must be genrated in order to support certain departments but, to disenfranchise your members with less and less support for the ones experiencing difficulties in order to keep up with the ever increasing changes does not make sense!!!
Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
Sorry about hiding my email address. Like most people these days, I'm trying to avoid being slaughtered by email volume. I am being notified via email of postings and I am very interested in all of the comments so far.
Hi Bob!
I can understand your response about your e-mail address being hidden but, did you bother to even seriously read the rest of my response?
Also, can you get some answers regarding my grievences?
You can e-mail me if you like at: hanklive39@hotmail.com in case you'd rather go this route...
Respectfully,
SSBN727 Run Silent... Run Deep!!!
P.S. I KNOW THAT I COULD PASS THE TEST WITHOUT TAKING THE SEMINAR!!!
I'm reading. Will definitely respond at some point.
Bob,
After thinking about your question for a little while, what percentage of applicants pass the examination when combined with the seminar? What percentage of applicants who do not attend the seminar pass the examination? I've asked a couple of guys this afternoon about their examination day, (and it's my recollection as well) and we all agreed there were a lot more canidates for testing than attended the seminar.
The procters also asked for a show of hands for the number of people testing for the second time. It was at least 50%.
Is it possible that work of mouth is not in your favor? It takes a lot of positive comments to cancel out one negative comment.
Bob,
Since the cost issue is being spoken about, I will say that when I must renew, I grumble at the cost, even though my employer is footing the bill. If I were working for myself or I was responsible for the fees and the cost of the books, I know I could not afford these items either. Anyone who can or is willing to put up those kinds of fees on their own is remarkable. It is alot of money for one to absorb without some help. I only hope AWS will consider a reduction or can find a way to operate more efficient to help out it's members.
John Wright
The Certification Committee keeps records of the pass fail rates but does not contrast these with the educational elements (seminars).
Mr Bisphoric I would challenge you to begin collecting and comparing that information to validate the worth of the seminars.
Personally I would like to see AWS hold seminars like this once a year as a member benefit in conjunction with the AWS Show.
Something like this...If you show up at the show and become a life member or sign up/extend to three or five years(some meaningful commitment). Then you can attend the seminar (no charge).
The examination costs should not be included in this concept as they there may be ethical concerns. Membership does not equal Certification.
This would indicate that our Society takes a genuine interest in the membership and their professional/educational goals.
Good luck on your new job.
Excellent suggestion, Neal! I think the idea of making a commitment to long-term membership in exchange for a gratis or enormously reduced seminar would go a long way in satisfying the body of CWI candidates and, for us long-term CWI/SCWI's, it would give us the benefit of a being offered a refresher while recommitting our membership interests to the AWS. If they were to bring that before the Board my only hope would be that they didn't omit us who have loyally been around for years and years!
Also love your idea of a challenge for AWS to correlate the seminar to exam pass/fail rates. It should not be that difficult to do.
Hello Bob
I am a new CWI who just took the exam and class a few months ago.
If someone has the study books they don't really need the class because all the instructor did for 8 hours a day for 5 days was read from a book to the class of 20 people. On the application you had to have at less 5 years experience in Metals so the class really fine tunes what most should already had some idea.
What I think would be more helpful is if AWS explained where all the money was going. My class was at a nice hotel conference room and they served a light breakfast and lunch and snack everyday for over 20 people. All that had to cost a a lot of money. Also AWS had to pay the instructor and proctors who give the exam. They gave each person a lot of books to read and study and help. The books had to cost a lot of money. I don't know all the expenses AWS has but that would help explain some of the high cost for membership and all. I have not been around long but I do think that every 3 years $350 for renewal is a bit high even if my company pays all my expenses. I could never afford to be a CWI without help just like most members.
By -
Date 11-07-2003 03:48
Mr. Bishopric,
In my particular case, cost was an issue, however it was not the most important factor. I simply felt that I could prepare sufficiently for the tests by studying on my own, and that attending a seminar was therefore of relatively little value. In fact in the past I have passed both the CWI and SCWI tests without failing, and without having attended a seminar.
That said, I recognize that the seminars are likely to be very valuable for those individuals who do not by virtue of their working experience have the right kind of knowledge to simply get by by boning up on a few texts.
Mankenberg
I weighed the option of taking a course but based on the content of the test I felt self study was a better route.
Even if I failed the 1st time I would still be money ahead and the knowledge gained during self study sticks with me better and can usually be better applied in the workplace.
Its similar to my reason for not keeping my certification current. In 1990 the cost seemed high. In 1999 it seemed very high. The cost to maintain the certification was outrageous. Once I show that I have a certain level of knowledge it seems odd to me that I should need to pay someone to "Certify" my abilities. I don't know what I have missed out on being "non-certified" but if tomorrow all of industry decided AWS certification was not needed anywhere I doubt the level of inspection skills would go down. The value to me does not get close to the cost.
AWS membership used to be worth it for the free bookand the welding journal. The deal has change since my 1st membership in 1986. I was under the impression that AWS was dedicated to sharing welding related information. After various requests to use AWS Terms and Definitions on my website it was explained to me that the infomation in AWS A3.0 was how AWS made money and that copyright permission would not be granted I decided that AWS was more into "Selling Information".
AWS's control over welding information and the costs to "Certify" etc would be handled differently if owned by Bill Gates.
Gerald Austin
bbish,
Looks like you have a lot to read here, I just wanted to add to it.
My standard advice to prospective CWIs is to study the code book, certification manual, and practice measuring weld defects, and then take the seminar. This works well when the company pays for the seminar, and the self study before the seminar is a good measure of how serious the person is. (Many people don't get past the cover of D1.1) That way, at the seminar, the attendee can focus on what they DON'T know, everything else is a review to confirm their knowledge.
When a company is not paying the bill, the prospective CWI has a difficult choice to make. Likely he/she is already a welder, or supervisor, or so forth, so they know they can make a living staying where they're at job wise. Usually, inspection is something new for them. Most every inspector can tell you that training and support is very sparse for the profession. It takes a long time to accumulate the experience & knowledge, and customer confidence. If an inspector has not been "drafted" into the field, it can be very difficult to get a QC position (except for the "scapegoat" jobs that are short lived and risk your reputation). It's almost impossible without certifications. So the inspector has a choice. Pay for the seminar, travel, & hotel and lose the work hours, or study at home and just pay for the exam when it comes to town. It's often viewed as a matter of how much you can afford to gamble with.
Just a thought for you....
Perhaps an option could be provided so there is a home study portion for the course. Provide the material, study schedule, and quizzes to send in. Then also offer a shorter (and cheaper) review and 'hands-on' training session. Break it out so a person can pay for just the parts they feel they need. Break out the prices so a person doesn't have to pay for books they may already have or can borrow. It wouldn't matter if a person 'gets help' on a quiz -if they don't learn they don't pass the CWI exam. There must be something that can be done to be more flexible and attractive to more people.
I'll leave it at that.
Chet Guilford
Bob;
To large extent, I agree with all of the other responses to your inquiry. The main reason why people do NOT take the seminar is cost. Remember, besides the actual costs for the seminar, many people are unpaid for their time off from work and on top of that must pay their own hotel, airfare, meals and other incidentals. Being a former staff member of AWS I know that there are costs involved in putting on the seminar but (in my own personal opinion) AWS is trying to gain too much "profit" from the seminars.
Having said that, I would not personally sit for the exam again without the benefit of the seminar ~ if humanly possible. I passed the first time through many, many years ago but, I was very well prepared for the exam before taking the seminar.
All potential CWI's must be informed by their peers and by AWS that the seminar is simply an excellent refresher with the added benefit of taking the exam on the day following so the previously reviewed information remains fresh.
If I were unable to take the seminar (speaking to candidates now) I would get a copy of the Certification Manual for Welding Inspectors and know it backwards and forewards as an absolute minimum! I also think that more emphasis should be placed on KNOWING the various Codes ~ perhaps even expanding the CWI test to make it mandatory to use more than a single Code during the test. I know this may be unpopular but truly, a "newby" CWI really doesn't have much of a clue until some working experience is gained.
I guess my bottom line would be this: If AWS is interested in having more seminar attendants then the cost of taking the seminar must be reduced. If AWS continues escalating the costs each and every year then sooner or later NONE of us will be able to afford it and company's will no longer sponsor the lucky ones!
Okay, so much for my windy two cents.
Wow you hit a hot topic here. Since everyone else is speaking up, I might as well give my perspective. Ditto to much of what was said above.
The AWS section I participate with saw this as a problem 15 years ago and took the bull by the horns and made some money for our section by sponsoring our own classes. Cost was about 2/3 of what AWS charged and we still made good enough money for our section to have some good field trips and golf tournaments. We used the same materials AWS used. We hooked up with our local community college to provide classrooms. We scheduled classes Tuesday and Thursday evenings for 3 hours each night (very often ran long). AWS gave the examination in our city and we timed our course to end approximately 1 week before the AWS exam. About half the students had the classes paid by their company and the other half paid themselves (they often worked harder since their money was on the line). Approximately 90% welders (little or no inspection experience) and the rest NDE personnel wishing to expand their certifications. We had a pretest to start the course; really woke up potential CWIs to material to be covered since the average score was about 10 to 20%. We got our minds right! Each night we covered one module from the WIT (2 nights for metallurgy, weld processes and code book). When necessary, a specialist in each discipline were approached to teach the selected module. In other words, we went to a heat treater to teach metallurgy, a testing lab technician taught destructive testing demonstrating destuctive testing, a ASNT Level III taught NDE with a UT, MT, PT equipment in use, etc. At any point hands on training could be introduced, it was intoduced. A quiz was given every class, graded, discussed until satisfied and then we went home. Teachers were available through out the course to answer questions of students. At least 2 full nights throught D1.1, word by word. Spare night or 2 scheduled for makeup. Final course exam scores were often in 70 to 80% range. Pass rate for AWS exam was >95% (100% for 3 straight years) I organized the course (5 years).
Lesson was to spread the material over a longer period of time, hands-on, time for comprehension, contemplation, questions and preparation.
In response to one comment made above, hopefully a newby comes out with a new perspective of what a CWI is. Hopefully he knows his limits also. It is up to the CWI, and his employer, to not put the CWI into a position he can not handle. Each CWI should seek to mature into a fully capable CWI. As with any newby in any walk of life, they are not fully mature and need some time to grow.
Also as has been stated above, AWS is pricing themselves way out of line for courses and codebooks which must be bought often. I know it costs a great deal of money to organize and publish new standards, but D1.1 has been around a while and see no reason for it to cost $344/each every 2 years! Very little new is added or changes past the numbers on the cover. It is a well established code that maybe should only be reissued every 3 to 5 years with supplements if necessary.
Enough said, someone has to go out in the shop to look at some steel.
Other than the current economic statis of our country being a factor I can only respond to your question from personal experience.
I was required by the academic community to have the CWI credentials. As part of my hiring package the college sent me and paid for the seminar. At that time I had nearly 30 years of welding and teaching experience. The seminar did help as a "polishing" tool for the test and I readily passed.
Now that I have held my CWI for six years it is time to "re-up" and send my money to keep my credentials for another three years. I also have to add the $75.00 for membership. I have had to drop the CWE because that was another expense. When the nine year requalifying time rolls around I will not be financially able to do as many others have stated, which is to pay for room, board, travel, etc, to take the required seminar. The college wants me to have this credential, but I am expected to financially maintain it.
While on this subject, being a college welding instructor does not give one the opportunity to work with another CWI. I had to get that experience the best way available. Luckily I had the chance to get some small amount when I was hiring out as a contract weldor, but that's another complaint for another time.
Having a CWI/CWE has had only one benefit for me, getting this job seven years ago. It has not given me the ability to go out and make the big bucks. No, this is not whine and sniffle time. The area that I live in is currently sending its' industry to other countries. One large nationally known company has just laid off 600 people. They had laid off over 400 about six months prior. The company is moving to Hungary. Currently the school is benefiting due to the misfortune of displaced workers. With the mass geographical exodus of industry it pays me to set down roots and hang on. The area that I live and work in has become tourism and retirement instead of the once plentiful manufacturing and construction. Welding service jobs and ornamental iron are still good pay in this area, but CWI's aren't really needed for that.
As I stated earlier, I will scrape together the funds for this years CWI and membership renewal, but the nine year renewal may not happen.
stever,
Not to minimize the expense of the exam, but perhaps you are thinking you have to take the seminar also. That is not the case. The CWI 9 year re-cert is only $595, for the exam only. The seminar adds a considerable cost to the process. No offense meant, but if you passed the CWI the 1st time and you are active in welding, especially inspection, the 9 year recert is a piece of cake. No seminar needed.
AWS is making a mint re-certifying people because it should not cost $445 to process paperwork to renew a CWI every 3 years. I don't think that fancy piece of paper costs that much to print and mail.
I have proctored the AWS exam and it should not cost $595 for the 9 year re-cert either.
I have not reviewed their little chart recently until today. Their cost have gone up unreasonably. No wonder no one attends those platinum seminars. WOW! I need to get into a different business. Maybe that is why the ASNT ACCP VT II program has been introduced; a little competition.
http://www.aws.org/certification/CWI/price_list.pdf
What is this fast track feature? What ever it is adds $250 bucks on top of the price for fast track, just for "processing" with no guarrantee to get you in.
John Wright
John,
According to the text following the chart, "fast track" is a fee assessed for paperwork received less than 6 weeks prior to the test. But Oh My Word! Those prices are quite a lot higher than I realized! I count myself fortunate that my company pays my fees, and I think the chart answers bbish's original question by itself.
It's interesting that a D1.1 code book costs nearly the same as the Code Clinic.
Maybe the best way to look at the prices is to divide them by 36. $12.36 per month doesn't seem so bad for my recent CWI renewal compared to the $445 check that went with my information packet.
Chet Guilford
AWS says on the second page at the bottom of the sheet, AWS strives to help participants with special needs and gives a number to call if you need assistance, so I guess they will adjust the price so we can all attend, if lack of money is our special need? :)
John Wright
Chet,
And to maintain a current D1.1 book, we all pay that book fee again every two years. $344/24 or $14.33/mo to maintain a current copy of just that code, not to mention the others as they are updated.
I know, I know, anybody got any cheese to go with all this whine?
It's Friday and it's been a hard week, so I'm hoping everyone will have a great weekend.
John Wright
Here are the prices on the CWB website as of this date for the CWB certification. Each line is for level 1, 2 , 3
D. Fees
Certification [includes initial exam & 3-year certification]
$298.00
$336.00
$379.00
Rewrite and Upgrade examinations
$135.00
$173.00
$216.00
Open Book Exam Fee [for additional code/standard endorsement]
$65.00
$65.00
$65.00
Open Book Examination [for mandatory six-year rewrite]
$38.00
$38.00
$38.00
Renewal Fee [every 3 years]
$163.00
$163.00
$163.00
Inspector Stamp Fee
N/A
$52.00
$52.00
Reciprocity Fee (AWS QC-1)
$236.00
$236.00
N/A
Trainee Fee for the candidates who wish to register in the Trainee Category is $48.00. Registration in this category based on a three year term.
5.2 Fees for Candidates with GCIL Endorsement: *
LEVEL 1
LEVEL 2
LEVEL 3
Certification [includes initial exam & 3-year certification]
$238.00
$269.00
$303.00
Rewrite and Upgrade examinations
$108.00
$138.00
$173.00
Remaining Fees for 5.2 are the same as noted in 5.1 above
An interesting difference in price considering each has a reciprocal clause. Maybe its due to the exchange rate ?
Gerald Austin
thcqci,
I sit corrected and red faced. The only excuse that I offer is that it's Friday. You are correct. I do not *have* to take the seminar. Thank you and I apologize to all at AWS. Note to self "Read AWS QC1:96 then post."
Those prices from CWB are in Canadian dollars?
Feedin' the trolls only makes 'em hungry for more.
As for the Canadian pricing, I am currently taking the GLIC Level 1 course. We are given two options out here which I am aware of:
Correspondance:
Level I Modules 1 - 4, 6, 10 - 12, 14 - 17 $345.60 ($432.00)
Level II Modules 1 - 19 $547.20 ($684.00)
Level III Modules 1 - 23 $662.40 ($828.00)
Pricing in brackets is for non-members of the Canadian Welding Bureau. All in Canadian dollars.
School:
Currently I am taking Level I, and this provides a teacher who goes over theory, as it doesn't cover any hands on. This has cost of an additional $480 - for 44 hours of lecture (Canadian dollars).
For me, I find the schooling neccessary, as I have never welded before, and have little experience in the welding field. I am driving my teacher nuts with questions!! PS - as for Top 5 Welders forum - he ranks #1 with me!!
Most people have brought up the cost of the seminar. For me, my work pays for the courses / seminars I want to take, and even so, I would not be interested in going to a seminar, as I find most seminars to be devoted to listening to the presentation, and have minimal question / answer time - compared to a classroom setting.
I feel seminars are great for PR (personal relations, meeting people), and are best for people who already have a great background of knowledge.
I feel there is alot of information covered that isn't 2nd hand knowledge - even for a welder. There is a high demand to spend time learning, studying and absorbing the information. I think it would be a better investment to spend the time and money on a tutor compared to a seminar.
Vicki
It would be interesting to see the pass fail statistics for those who took the AWS seminar and used other methods. Surely those are available !
When I decided to take the exam in 89ish I reviewed the material and realized that the information referred to been part of my education in 10th grade welding class. That core knowledge and desire to learn more was free. The only materials I bought was the CM-80 certification manual for welding inspectors and Welding Handbook Volume 1. The section IX and B31.1 was provided by my employer along with the test fee if I passed.
The total cost was probably less than $150.00 for materials. The amount of time I had spent on study of that and related material was years. My 1st test was Kansas City (I Think) and was taken after leaving a Shutdown the night before and sleeping a couple of hours in the parking lot prior to the test. As I left each section of the test to sleep I noticed I was always the 1st. The 2nd and 3rd people were boiler hands from somewhere The remainder were ironworkers who took the course free. At 1st I thought maybe I was fooling myself about what I knew because I finished so much sooner than those who "took the course". Upon hearing the discussion after each test session I was sure that was not the case. Years later I assisted with proctoring tests in B'ham Alabama and those same "Silly Questions (my opinion)" were being asked.
The courses may have helped some individuals pass the test. I doubt much useable knowledge was gained unless the individuals took the initiative to continue and refine the information that was gone over in a week.
I cannot see why the cost is SO HIGH for the course and Exam other than the fact that AWS can get it. A fee to cover the materials and instructor fee should be all that is the cost that is required. Since the materials are AWS documents the price shouldn't be the retail cost. If the remainder of the cost is related to paying the fees of the instructor. I WANT THAT JOB ! If the remainder of the fees is profit for AWS . SHAME ON YOU!
I know that as a non-profit organization the operating costs may be very high and since business is not one of my strong points I may be WAY off base but it seems odd. As I read through the lists of employees at AWS I realize there are MANY so they have to be paid. I also know that when a test is given, the proctors are volunteers. THATS NON PROFIT !
A reduction in both the cost of the seminars and tests would be of great value. A study guide with more infomation and reference material would also be great. The WIT Loose leaf book is great. Much of the informatin seems copied from other texts so couldn't that price be reduced ?
Have a nice day
Gerald Austin
P.S. Thanks for participating in the forum and please enchourage others to.
To summarize (in no specific order of importance), the reasons that more people are not enrolling in the AWS seminars are:
1. Formal classes are offered by others.
2. Independent study or small informal study groups are popular.
3. Cost:
a. cost of seminar
b. loss of time and revenue at work
c. travel & lodging expenses
4. AWS sections are organizing training classes.
5. Experience and background – some may not require any additional training or study.
6. There are currently no options to combine a home study course with the AWS seminar to reduce classroom time.
Maybe it’s time for Bob to jump in and respond from the viewpoint of AWS. Is there anything that I have not included in this summary???? Please add on.
I would still like to know the pass/failure figures of the examination when combined with the AWS seminar. Nobody has posted the comparison of costs of the formal classes offered by others.
Seems like an accurate summary of comments to date. This isn't the sort of issue one solves--or even addresses--in two days. I've been given much to consider and discuss within the organization. And I'll keep looking for more comments here.
Your only getting a small part of the opinions from a group of individuals with a computer or access to one. A form with a SAS Envelope or random phone survey would maybe give you a few more opinions. Maybe something at the individual section meetings but standardized.
You do something to change it for the better I will send in my membership renewal with you as a reference :)
Have a good day and hanks for the interest
Gerald Austin
Mr. Bishopric,
I just want to chime in and say that the reason I did not attend a seminar was due to the extreme cost, even though it was my employer who paid for the examination.
The total fee AWS charges for this process, especially when you consider seminar, test, travel, lodging, meals, lost wages, etc is extremely outrageous.
Please consider helping to rectify this unjust situation.
Thank you,
Tim Gary, AWS member and CWI
FWIW.....
I took the seminar and exam. Taught by Ken Jobes-he did a very good job.
That all said....we really don't need 800+ slides as (I was told) required by corporate.
Half that many would be enough. You either get it or you don't
A little more time on the practical applications would be good. After all, this is why we are here. Additionally, good quality tool kits for training would be appreciated as well.
When I took the course, the training tools provided were very lacking. Junk would be a very generous description. Even my D1.1 code book had a broken "back" so pages did not line up. No discount on a $350 book!! A year after reciept, pages fall out at any time for any reason. Not what I expected for a book of this price.
I'm very sure the AWS can do better.
Got some decent tools for the test, though not up to standards.
Got you close enough to "fudge" the rest. Although you cannot provide your own flashlight and scale-=what is this about??
Other than that, if you pay close attention during the seminar, there is no reason not to pass. You will have to study after you get home, but it is only for a week, and the result is a great career booster.
I passed on my first try, with a relatively high score, but 25+ years in the industry was a big help.
IMHO, all in all, if seminars are not being fully attended, look to cost and location. Not all candidates have the bottomless pit of money that many company sponsored candidates have.
Additionally, placement of CWI's would be something to pursue. As I hear, available CWI searches are extremely expensive (listed by zip code only) through the AWS.
Because of this, companies may pursue alternate avenues of finding CWI's. Newspapers and third parties seem the place to get a job.
All the inspection jobs I have had so far did not include the AWS in any way.
This subject intrigues me. If I can be of any further help, please let me know. I would like to be involved.
Email direct, if possible.
Good luck
brande
Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to respond to this query. You have given us in the Marketing department much to consider. I particularly appreciate your helpful suggestions. We will be following up with additional research and, ultimately, operational recommendations.
Bob Bishopric
AWS Corporate Director of Marketing
Bob,
Thanks for your interest in the concerns of AWS' membership.
John Wright
See Post"Inspection" ,Shop Welding VS. Field WElding".
I hope I'm not too late to reply.
You guys sound like a bunch of under paid and under loved quality professionals.
The basic requirement of certification for AWS CWI is education and experience. You are inspectors who get paid well for your services. You can whine about $, or who is not as competent as you; but you are not willing to put out any effort or money to maintain your professionalism.
Educators cost money. CEU's are important to you, so be sure to accumulate them eagerly.
Regards,
Vonash
If Certification = Professionalism then I have had the wrong view for my limited years involved in the industry. If someone views me as more professional based on a "bought" piece of paper then more than likely they wouldn't be able to tell if I knew what I was doing.
Its nothing more than another fee paid to people that do little by people that do something that adds NO value to the end product.
Educators cost money, education doesn't. In many cases (If we pay attention) we can get a paid one.
Have a nice one
Gerald Austin
Take a deep breath Gerald, times have changed.
Yes they have. For the better ? Are prodcuts better built/fabricted now or are the manufacturers better protected through loads of "Documentation".
It woulld be interesting to see a history of weld related failures vs weld related lawsuits over the past 20 years.
I'm breathing now :)
Have a good one
G AUstin
vonash:
1.) You don't know that everyone is well paid or under-loved(?)
2.) Bob asked for comments, and most of us replied accordingly.
3.) We all put out $ for our certifications, READ the replies.
I noticed a few replies were deleted, was that you as well?
Instead of coming on like 40 grit sandpaper, show the forum that you heed your own advice and be a professional.
Aws D1.1 allows for inspection, and documentation of welder's work, if the inspector is capable of performing the inspection and they are accepted ( their credentials ) by the Engineer of Record. You don't have to be a CWI per the code. However, many owners and engineers recognize the importance of AWS certification ( welders & inspectors alike ).
The cost to send my kids to college is tremendous; remember this is education. AWS has put together a compehensive program for learning about welding. I don't believe many of the guys I work with can pass that test today without a refresher. I did not take the seminar this time around and I failed by one question and guess what? AWS doesn't offer that course in my hometown each week-end. I had to take the 1st test in Cincinnati, spend my money, etc....and I failed. I had to go to the re-test in Atlanta. The 1st time I tested (years ago), I took the seminar and I passed.
The industry is full of capable weldors and inspection personnel, many of whom are my peers. They too sometimes disagree with my thinking.
Best regards,
Vonash
