So how is it some of the wealthy can be so darn cheap?? Years ago I was approached by a contractor that said this guy wanted two awnings made from 6" channel for against the wall, two to three protruding out about 2.5 feet and then a 10" channel on the face. Does not want to see cables, actually don't want cables at all. The wall is just cinder block and the span is a bit over 20 feet for each. Now throw in the $100,000 Mercedes, the expensive BMW's and other $$$$ cars that park directly underneath this area....not to mention people walking under it. Last time I was approached I said "this guy has his own engineer why don't he spec it out and I'll price it out and build it". Ohhhh, we can't do that...he won't do that. Engineer said it would take about an hour to do at $100.
Well, after two years I was approached again with the idea. First they say use lightweight metal. I say aluminum and mention $$$$$ and the reply is, well don't want it expensive, just make it cheap because he don't want to spend alot of money on it. Ok, then steel but you'll need an engineer to spec it out if he don't want cables to support it, heck you'll need an engineer to spec it out if it's aluminum. It's funny how after two years we are having the same conversation except I remember saying all of this two years ago, perhaps they think I've forgotten. I'm used to starving and don't want to work for free. As a good friend of mine has said, "I can stay home and go broke, I don't have to go out and work to go broke"
I've got the number to an engineer who has helped me out once before but he is like me, he likes to make money so I don't want to call him. I could go to him and pay to have him spec it out in aluminum and steel and once I get through with my labor, installation....Hilti anchors and so on the cheapskate will say that's to expensive and I'm out the cost of the engineer. I know the aluminum materials alone would send this guy into a spin, steel probably won't work without cables, but then I'm not an engineer.
Guess I need to tell them like I did last time, get an engineer or call Joe's Hack and Fab Welding Service not me. At least with an engineer I could call my steel guy and not look like a complete moron when he asks the weight of the channel etc, I could actually tell him!! LoL!!
Without an engineer, I would tend to over-build the thing and it would cost twice what it should. At least with engineering, you could build it with a safety factor built in and still keep it as light and simple as possible. I like my engineering friends. I don't blame you for not going ahead.
Shawn, they get wealthy by being cheap, and taking advantage of anyone that will stand for it. If you let them get to you, they loose all respect and will ride you in to the ground. Most do not really care what a thing cost but how much they can beat you down for it.
I have worked closely with some one who got a great deal of satisfaction knowing he was able to take advantage of some one and the more it hurt them was that much more pleasure he got out of it.
The most important thing I learned from that association was that when you are an honest and fair person there are some people who feel obligated to try to change that.
Sounds like the best bet is have the customer spec out everything, through his own engineer.
I can understand that one way to have money is to spend as little of it as possible - and that's OK. That also means that if the awning drops on a car or a person, they plan to spend your money instead of theirs. I think you have the right approach to it.
I have worked for the exceptionally wealthy for many years. It is my experience that honesty and a fair price backed by good referrals are the best policy. If I meet with a potential client, and give a fair price with respect to what the market will bear and that person wants to cut corners, etc.; then that is a person who is not worthy of my services and experience. There’s a saying that my dad taught me… get in bed with the devil and sooner or later you have to %**@.
Set your terms, give a fair price (if it is a repeat client, give a really good price, if you’re so inclined), and stick to your guns. In order to be able to do business like this you have to be able to produce good referrals, live within your means so you’re not starving and more apt to compromise on your principles, and have a little faith.
I just had a conversation with a friend of mine along this vein. He bid a job taking into consideration that he and his crew were bringing over 20yrs experience per man to the table. The client wanted to push him off his hourly price by over 40%, citing the economy as his reason (and he better get used to it, by the way). He walked. What that client will get is a 20-something year old person who will gain his experience at the client’s or the contractor’s expense. (The contractor’s, if Mr. 20-something is a stand up guy). This is because the young contractor figured he had enough time under his belt to strike out on his own. The client may also get a contractor who is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. One mistake or false move and the whole ship will sink along with his money.
The older I get the more I wrestle with this. Striking out on your own is what this country is all about, and many a fortune has been made doing just that. But many a fortune has also been lost due to a silver tongue or a cheapskate. Anyway, the aforementioned is what works best for me so far….
Jon
Quit worrying about how expensive or cheap. Figure material, labor, equipment overhead and profit. Give the man the figure. One of three things can happen. He can say yes, he can say no or he can say I will think about it. But you have given him your price, if he shops it to someone else and they do it cheaper, either they have a lower cost structure or would rather starve working or starve at the house. But if you aint making margins and profit, you are going to be starving.
Cummins, Like big K said, give him a number from start to finish, INCLUDING time for engineering ( the customer doesn't have to know this info.). I've employed a small local co. that has sent work my way and I now send some his way!!!!! Believe me a customer will get "amnesia" real quick if something goes sideways. And an engineers review and stamp doesn't cost as much as you would think!!!! ( had a $25,000.00 job reviewed and stamped for $1,000.00 and he found a code violation in the states bid design drawing that would of cost me $50,000.00 if it would have gone unaddressed and built as shown) Pittsburgh home of the 1&0 preseason STEELERS!!!!!!
Cummins guy,
See. Now you know how to get rich. Fork every one you can in the brown eye!
A good friend once told me it is just as easy to say $500 as it is $50. People will cringe and make the same face for the $50 bill as they do for the $500 bill, but they will place more value on what they paid $500 for than the same item if they only paid $50 for it.
He may have a point.
No one will lose a minute of sleep if you go broke because you give everyone a deal.
The one lesson I learned in business school is it isn't any fun being a bottom feeder that charges the lowest price for services rendered. If you don't value the services you render, neither will your customers. They will assume your services are only as valuable as the price you charge. The secret is to set yourself apart from your competion, provide high value services, and charge accordingly. Not everyone should be able to afford your services.
Best regards - Al
You might want to also check with the local building inspector and see if this requires a permit. If so, they will expect it to meet the building code, be designed for wind and snow loads, and the design certified by a registered professional engineer. As the contractor, you would be the one responsible for getting the permit if it is required. If it failed and fell on those high $$$ cars or a person, you would be liable.
I've learned of the years that if someone is going to bust your stones right out the gate, seldom does it get any easier with them. I would ask him if this falls on your high dollar cars would you take them to the cheapest body shop in town to get repaired?
Permits.....that's a whole different story. Thanks to all for the words of wisdom. I believe I'm going to stay away from this guy. My brother in law has been back and forth with him for the last 5-6 years(I quit, I'm back) because he wants everything as cheap as possible but the highest quality possible as well. I mention the name of this guy and my wife says, "ohhhhh" and would prefer I had no dealings with him. If I go to an engineer and have it spec'd out and for some reason he finds out I went to an engineer he will not pay and he will tell me "Im not paying for that". I know the guy and have been shafted before. I think it's just the allure of a larger project with him that draws me back, the opportunity to bid on something that is not residential handrail and could actually make me some better money. I can't say all wealthy, frugal, thrifty may be a better word for 99%, this guy though, he's just plain cheap. Like I said, top notch quality for China pricing.
I decided that I was going to get a rough price from an engineer and shoot them an as usual fair price for doing the job. Well I called an engineer that I know through an architect and explained what was wanted, type of wall, old cinder block wall and the engineer said, " I don't even want to touch that without significant reinforcement behind the block". Guys been an engineer probably since my dad was born. I stuck to my guns, told guy over job that engineer did not want any part of it unless they wanted to spend a bit more money for reinforcing the wall. So I told him I'm gonna have to say no again, told him if the engineer won't put a stamp on it there is no way I'm building it on my own using farm code. He told me the engineer didn't know what he was talking about, I withheld my laughter til I got off the phone and figured I've done ok without this guy for the last two years, think I'll keep on going without them.
You made the correct decision there Shawn... I'm proud of you for sticking to your guns on this job!!! :) :) :)
Respectfully,
Henry
Thanks Henry, really appreciate that. Well, it's from being on here for the last two or three years reading posts and learning from you experienced guys. Can't thank everybody on here enough for the straight forward comments, critism no matter how tough. Had a go with these folks a few years back, time to give them the deep six.
Perhaps for future similar projects you might have your attorney prepare a "liability waiver" for your customers to sign before the job to protect yourself. It could state that you assume no liability for the design of structures and it is the customers responsibility to obtain the review of a professional engineer where required by local, state and federal regulations, or when there is risk to life or property.
As a structural engineer myself, I totally agree with what your engineer told you. And checking out that wall means going all the way down to the foundation of the wall. And how good are the soils, are they adequate for the new wall overturning loads? You might even need a geotechnical engineer.
Yep, ya did the right thing.
Bob G.
Thanks Bob, good to hear from another engineer. I believe the opinion of the guy I talked to, has 50 or 60 years experience but the gc saying, "he don't know what he's talking about" it's nice to hear from another engineer confirming......an idiot gc!!
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