Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Not Happy with Lincoln
- - By Blaster (***) Date 11-17-2010 20:51
I recieved two MIG welders today that I ordered earlier.  Prior to ordering I called Lincoln to make sure they were American made, to which they said yes.  Legally speaking, I imagine they are.

On the power source I look at the plug... Made in China.  I ordered Magnum 200 guns w/ Pro Series consumables for the welders... Assembled in Mexico.  I ordered extra proprietary nozzles for these guns... Made in China.  I ordered 100 extra proprietary contact tips for these guns... Made in China.

I bend over backwards to buy American.  I gave over 7 years of military service to pay at least a little bit of my share towards the cost of freedom.  Unless I can find some domestic substitutes, it looks like Lincoln expects me to financially support a nuclear armed communist country every time I order consumables for these welders.

I am not impressed one bit by this decision of Lincoln's management.
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 11-18-2010 00:26
Welcome to the real world of today!

I do not like this any more than you!

Griff
Parent - - By Mat (***) Date 11-18-2010 03:06 Edited 11-18-2010 03:09
Companies want things done and they want it done as cheaply as possible, this is why a lot of work is done off of the continent.

The Mentality of the labor force in China is a lot different than it is here in the West.

For instance, the first shop that I worked at, from what I hear moved most of their operation to Mexico.
Parent - - By Regmanager (**) Date 11-18-2010 13:16
The machine serial number starts with a letter. It is the country of origin.

U=USA
C=Canada
I=Italy

Recently I have had some machines start with M. I'm assuming that it is Mexico, but haven't asked Lincoln yet.
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 11-20-2010 02:48
Lincoln told me that M indicates Mexico.

I was recently surprised to find that Lincoln is building their newest TIG machines in Italy.
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 11-18-2010 14:12
Mat that is not exactly a true statement. We the end buyers want it cheap, and at the same time, we want higher wages. Manufactures are just trying to appease us and give us what we are demanding.

The 2 don’t mix well.

Think about it. If it was made in the US of A it would cost most likely 2, 3 even 5 times a much, making it pretty much out of reach for most folks.

Its do it out of the country or cut back on wages here. Take your pick.

Personally, I have equipped my home shop with tools and equipment I never dreamed I could afford 20 years ago.

Darn, I am almost as well equipped as my shop at work. Sure some of it is of low quality compared to more expensive tools but If it goes down it wont break me to replace it.

As a business man I am sure you want the best available (most serviceable), but unfortunately the buying public (consumers) have the ear most almost all industry now days and that makes you vastly out numbered.

From there its pretty simple economics.

How long before we can no longer afford to buy anything because we sent all the jobs out of country and in a depression we can’t get out of?
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-22-2010 04:01
this argument really depends on the cost of fabrication and the profit margin of the item.
I doubt the costs would skyrocket 2-3 times, because I doubt assembly costs are that high. Labor and overhead probably only costs <10% of a big ticket item like a welder. The vast portion would be component cost and then R&D.

In order to meet the legal definition of Made in 'Merica 51% or more of the components must be made in the USA and assembled here too. A company Like LE will pay the cheapest bulk rate it can get for capacitors, power cords and other "low impact" components. Components with no RD and minimal skill in manufacturer are the ones that are cheaper to source overseas, because the only way to make them cheaper is knock out that final few % that is labor and overhead. It's also harder to argue a  quality issue unless the component fails to meet spec. A plastic knob from china will do as well as a plastic knob from the USA 9/10 times. Can you fault the company for trying to lower the cost of their welder?

For the record Hypertherm is manufactured and assembled in the USA, not sure if that goes back down to every last nut and bolt, but they definitely have no interest in outsourcing their manufacturing.  Assembly costs in the US are usually very competitive to china once you add in the lead time and shipping.  what isn't competitive are environmental dirty manufacturing processes and anything that requires a large quantity of low skill labor.   Some specialized manufacturing like battery production and carbon fiber production etc are coming back to the US or never left. Contrary to popular belief it wasn't cheaper to make everything overseas.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 11-22-2010 15:56 Edited 11-22-2010 17:26
Hello Metrinka.

I don't believe its an argument seeing as how the facts are in our face. Unemployment at record levels (a good deal of it is because work is being sent elsewhere). There is a heck of lot more to it than just the cost of labor though. Manufacturers work real hard at keeping prices as high as THE MARKET WILL BARE and profits even higher.

But that’s just good business sense isn’t it? If you are the CEO of a Corp and a proud American but  you fail to keep profits up--- guess what--- you aren’t a CEO any more and some new up start is doing every thing you tried to avoid in your trying to  keep America strong because he wants his/her share of the good life.

We are turning out new Business grads by the thousands every year and every one is doing every thing he/she can thing of you get a job or horn in on someone else’s job (moving on up).

What’s the solution????? The population growth is not going to slow down soon and so the demand wont either. Safe to say, currently the demand is still very high, not just here but around the world. I guess that is a Sellers market you think?

About the only thing that can slow down current trend is the amount of refuse we produce and soon to come reduced resources.

IMHO the real problem is WALL STREET and the clowns that are raping every one to get decadently rich by gambling with our lively hood. Sore subject for me so I will end my tirade here.

Have a great Thanksgiving Holiday everyone.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 11-20-2010 02:55
522029 - No welcoming here.  I have been well aware of this problem for many years and  I spend a lot of money every year.  I go to great lengths to ensure it goes to keep America strong.  It is a major pain to call every manufacture before ordering an item to check on country of origin, but I do it.... every regulator, box of wire, can of rod, tungsten electrodes, gouging carbons, gas hose, grinding disc, chipping hammer, safety glasses, whatever.  Yes, it is rediculously time consuming and is frosts me no end that I must devote so much of my time to this.  But what is the alternative?
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 11-20-2010 04:16
Blaster, Maybe you could share some of your research on this forum for those that are interested.  I'm sure many would appreciate the footwork you have done.  Maybe a Made in America thread.....
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-22-2010 07:19
Blaster

I would really like to know about those U.S. made tungsten electrodes.

I really diddn't think there were any... I'm pretty sure even sylvania imports.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 11-22-2010 15:28
ESAB.  I like La, and ESAB makes a 1.5 I use extensively.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-22-2010 16:55
I diddn't know ESAB even made tungsten electrodes!

I also use Lanthanum 1.5   Very versatile.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 11-19-2010 01:22
The companies are just like our politicians nothing but greedy turds that all sleep together lining each others pockets but someday will have it all ruined for everyone.  Greed for money does that they don't care about you, quality or the future only about more money for themselves now.  It's hard to find any kind of replacement parts still made here and most things made in Mexico or here are not made there at all but from products or materials made overseas then only assembled here.
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 11-19-2010 16:32
but, but, they have NASCAR stickers on everything.....isn't that American enough? kidding aside, I share your frustration.
- - By clinkerforge (*) Date 11-18-2010 13:53
I am a big fan of older lincoln machines, but I have found that the newer ones are not as good and assembled elsewhere
I lie to buy US made goods as well, I spent 30 min going through a pile of Carharts to find one pair that fit that were also made in USA (all mixed up with ones made in Mexico)
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 11-18-2010 16:48
I would cut and paste your post and send it to their customer service department so that they know we are onto what they are doing.
- - By awspartb (***) Date 11-20-2010 02:13 Edited 11-20-2010 02:23
Wait until you read the label on your $200 Redwing steel toe work boots!  I used to buy Carolina boots but those are now made in China.  Funny how the price didn't go down when they went to china.  The quality sure did.  Just like the pipeline welding quality went to Hell when North Dakota and TX rigs started showing up on job sites in the Marcellus Shale region. Can you say REWORK and REJECTED??  

I know you Southern boys don't know this but up here in the North we are required to wear steel toe boots and safety glasses on construction sites.  Sonetimes we are required to wear hardhats and respirators also.

This is the only source for USA made work boots that I know of.  ...............they cost much more than the boots at Walmart, just so you know...not that you care.

http://www.weinbrennerusa.com/
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 11-20-2010 02:39
Part B - I don't appreciate the part of your post that is trying to start a bunch of nonsense bickering in my thread.  Please keep that kind of thing in your own threads.

Personally I do read the labels on everything I buy, including boots.  I currently buy Redwings, and the Redwings I buy are American made.

Thanks for the link.

Others - Please don't reply here to the instigating remarks in the post above.
Parent - By JMCInc (**) Date 11-20-2010 17:18
Two more American made boot companies:

http://www.whitesboots.com/index.php

http://www.nicksboots.com/

I paid $289 for my Hathorns in 1991, a helluva lot of money then; they've been rebuilt twice at about a $100 a pop. Hand made in America one pair at a time, well worth the money. I don't mind the extra $ when the quality is markedly higher.

I had the same disappointment when I bought my Ranger 10,000. To add insult to injury it ended up in the shop after 100hrs of use.  We scrimped and saved so I could buy a brand new machine. What a bummer. My next welder was a '55 shorthood for less than half the price. No ac power but it welds like it's supposed to and is easy to fix. I keep the ranger for emergency power.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-21-2010 01:08
Blaster,

Thanks for starting this conversation.  It is indeed very difficult to find TRULY made in America products.  Even when the product is Made In America, how about ALL the components included?  The microchip boards?  The leather used for the boots?  The steel used to make the cover of the welder?  The paint? 

Can we TRULY find EVERY item and it's source and be sure it is 100% Made In America? 

As much as shifted to boots, here is another company making boots here in the USA:   http://www.danner.com/  

I don't believe they claim ALL their boots are made in the USA but many are.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 11-21-2010 01:13
Are you SURE?  Read the label on the inside.  Red Wing sells TWO brands of shoes these days.  Those Made in China and those Made in USA (from both domestic and foreign materials).  This is what the saleman told me at the local Red Wing store that is closing due to poor sales.  Capiche?
Parent - By Pickupman (***) Date 11-21-2010 01:46 Edited 11-21-2010 01:54
Here's another source for USA made boots, and they're also union made. http://theunionbootpro.com/ And awspartb is right, if you look close Redwings are made of USA and imported parts. At least the pair I'm wearing right now are.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 11-21-2010 19:23
The two pair of Redwings I currently wear are the #2486 and #953 "welders boot" - both say "Made in USA" with no notes about foreign materials.
Parent - By awspartb (***) Date 11-22-2010 02:16
Redwing Irish Setter brand is 100% china.  Just so you know.
Parent - - By ronnie taylor (**) Date 11-21-2010 03:37
My carolina boots say union made in the USA
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 11-21-2010 04:09
Sheesh you can drive a bus over those boots and not feel it.. LOL

  RC
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 11-22-2010 02:11 Edited 11-22-2010 02:18
Sorry to break the news to you about your Carolina boots. Most are made overseas.  Those boots of yours must be very OLD. All the ones in the store near me say Made in China. Carolina Boots shut down it's Morganton NC plant way back in the year 2000.  From the Carolina web site:

http://www.carolinashoe.com/history.asp

"Carolina Shoe Company was founded in 1963 as a new division of H. H. Brown. A manufacturing facility was set up in Morganton, NC, where manufacturing operations existed until 2000, when it was divided up among factories in the U.S. and overseas."

NOTE:  It doesn't take much to get a USA label on a product.  Case in point it the Toyota Tacoma truck.  Engine and tranny are Japan.  The rest is usa of at least assembled here.
Parent - - By ronnie taylor (**) Date 11-22-2010 03:04
These boots are 6 months old.http://www.carolinashoe.com/technology.asp
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-22-2010 13:56 Edited 11-22-2010 13:58
I have to agree with most that has been said. I'm sick of supporting China, I'd rather buy Canadian, English, German, Italian.....even Mexican made products over Chinese. China's pollution, lack of laws for it and on and on are the reasons they can cut our throats not to mention a billion or so folks sitting around. I try to buy American but sometimes you have to get what you get. At least all of my steel I use for any projects is made right here in the good ol' USA. Checked with my supplier and he said either Alabama or Virginia which makes me feel better.

As far as the boots go. I've owned redwings, bare bones no insulation or padding for $200 and after 2 years they were flat wore out, then another $200. I have to admit, 2 years ago was not the highest point in my finacial career, just laid off and scounging for work so Holemart here I come. Bought a pair of something brand work boots. 2 years later the side finally gave out at the toes. I thought, American made? I'd like to but searching the sites you guys have posted here.....there's no way I can afford those boots, $200, $300....$400? Really? They better outlast me for $400. Why can't we have a pair of American made boots, like my cheapo's from Wally world for say, $10, $20 more? I can honestly say that the boots I had for 2 years were on my feet just about everyday, except Christmas maybe. They are the only shoes I own so get worn daily. The $200 boot would have to last 6 years but usually after a good summer or two the "scent" from the boots ain't that nice and they're done for anyhow.

Maybe when the business gets better, bigger and I have that expendable income I can move up to American made $200 boots but still I can't justify it. $60 boots = 2yrs, $200 boots = 2 years. I know the savings is only $140 over the two years, but that's an oil change on my truck plus $20. Yes, I use American made oil, Amsoil and I can justify the expense because Amsoil saves me money....lots of money. I'd say my family is typical American family, single income and every penny is squashed til it bleeds, then we squash it again.  I laugh at the news people talking to the "smart ones", educating Americans on how to be thrifty, everything they talk about we have been doing for years. We went to the goodwill the other day and I had to laugh, my wife asked what? I told her other than my underwear, socks and boots everything I was wearing shopping at the goodwill.....came from the goodwill!! 

Unfortunately Wally World and China help with the squashing of the pennies around here and wish I could buy more American made products, maybe a new store called Americamart. China has got us by the goobers and we've grown accustom to it. A lot of folks would have a hard time changing if we all of the sudden stopped using Chinese made products and went solely to American made. Cost's would increase for certain and I know it would not be so good in my household, especially if you consider the % difference in the American made boots compared to the China made boots. Finally, yes, I did buy a new to me welder for several grand, big job a few months ago, enabled me to have the money set aside for such a purchase. It can be justified as it will open up more opportunities, last longer, weld bigger. $200 boots will be gone in 2 years just like the $60 boots. $80 American made cheap boots that lasts 2 years, yeah, I would do that. I'd still save $120 compared to the $200 boots, which is still an oil change.
Parent - - By thermopsummit (*) Date 11-22-2010 14:19
Good boot wear their packers and steel toes made in usa even have a factory tour on site.  http://www.chippewaboots.com/
Richard
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-22-2010 19:13
Thanks for the post, found a pair in there that I can afford.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Not Happy with Lincoln

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill