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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Air carbon arc gouging
- - By milles Date 01-11-2011 16:36
Can anyone tell me if I should follow the same preheat rules before air carbon arc gouging as one would for welding?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-11-2011 23:57
I cannot really think of a case where you would need to.  Preheating before welding is to maintain proper penetration and with some alloys proper strength characteristics as well as avoid cracking issues.   There might be come technique that involves it though, I just never heard of it.
Parent - By alan domagala (**) Date 01-12-2011 01:10
We just got done doing a mock up bridge girder for AISC fracture critical work and we had to preheat before gouging. Im sure it would depend on what code you were welding to.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 01-12-2011 01:32
Absolutely yes!
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-13-2011 00:38
learn somethin new almost everyday.     What is the purpose of the preheating? Is just to be able to cut deeper or.....?
Parent - By MMyers (**) Date 01-13-2011 01:12
Preheat is used to control the cooling rate of the weld and HAZ.  If you carbon arc without preheat that area will cool too fast and do whatever you don't want it to do - usually become more brittle than it should.  Now you've got an area that's prone to do whatever you don't want it to do - usually crack. 

And for what it's worth, current is the numero uno factor in controlling penetration (see Jackson's penetration equations).  Unless you're welding copper, I've never heard of anyone preheating to increase penetration, and the copper guys just want a puddle at all, but pretty much everyone cares about the properties of the weld and HAZ.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-13-2011 14:39
Tommy,

Like Mike and Super have said, pre-heat is very important to all aspects of the process, starting with the arc gouging of parts for weld prep or repair.

Take for example T1 plate 2" thick on heavy equipment. It has cracked from whatever extreme forces were exerted on it.  It is below freezing on some log yard and you are repairing it out in the field.  You hit it with the air arc, it is basically the same principle as having an arc strike out of the weld area.  You get a sudden heating and then cooling of the area giving you a severe change in the HAZ.  Mechanical properties, grain growth, molecule alignment, etc.

Now, by the time you finish your gouging and start to weld there may be enough pre-heat, at least on the surface, that the welder says, I already have pre-heat, no need to add more time to this job.  Let's get it welded and get back into the shop where I can get warmed up.  So he welds it out without proper heat as well.  Now he has really altered everything in the HAZ.  A couple of days later the unit cracks again.  Possibly in the repair weld, more than likely, though, it will be about 1" to the side of the previous weld.  All because there was no pre-heat applied BEFORE beginning any work. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By texwelder (***) Date 01-13-2011 15:13
I cant think of a time either i"ve arc gouge on some big junk iron, never pre-heated
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-16-2011 17:44
Well since were on the topic of air arcing got the chance to see a semi automatic air arc
in action. these are pics of a crane stop girder being back gouged for a fullpen weld
id never seen one before so i thought id show and tell lol
Attachment: oldbridge015.jpg (900k)
Attachment: oldbridge016.jpg (891k)
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-13-2011 18:34
Thank you for the education. I've personally never preheated before air arcing and never seen any one else
learn somthing new everyday.  Joe
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-14-2011 00:38
I have not air arced a lot but I definitely learned something here.  The embrittlement factor makes sense when I think about it.  Makes me wonder about the sub arc welds I backgouged out of some tanks...we were working to a "code" and preheat was not called for....the shop might have been more backwards then I thought.  

Would the same principles generally apply to gouging with a torch?
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-14-2011 01:37
The need to preheat is determined by the alloys in the material. Steel that will not respond to heat treatment does not require pre heating, because the rapid cooling in the HAZ will not harden it [make it brittle].

A36 is on the edge with respect to this, as it has no alloy specifications, only minimum yield requirements. T1, high strength low alloy, quenched & temperd materials and heat treatable alloys need to be worked with proven procedures.

Arc or flame, the area of the material that is above critical temperature [A3 on the chart?] can be "quenched" [cooled rapidly enough to harden] by the surrounding cooler material and be harder or less ductile than intended.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-14-2011 20:37
Tom,
No need to worry. Who specify back gouging is not the code (ASME VIII) or standard (API 650, AWWA D100 or other) but the welding procedure specification. 
In order to be entitled to carry the ASME (or API etc.) stamp, the WPS must be written by the tank manufacturer. He may subcontract some parts (tank design, for example) or appoint the services of a consultant (to write the WPS, for example), but the whole responsibility for the tank supply will rest on him (the manufacturer). So, he is responsible for having the weld preheated before backgouging or not.
After reading Dave`s explanation, you`ll see that preheating before backgouging is not always necessary.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-15-2011 00:38
Thanks guys!

That is what makes this forum such a fantastic resource...I might have got more out of this then the op did!  23 years in the game and I just learned something which should have been intuitive to me at this point...new way to think so to speak.

Thanks again for your commentary
Sincerely
Tommy
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Air carbon arc gouging

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